Larry Bird - This will astound you!

[JordyG]

Johnny Most was a clown, a complete homer!

Kareem skyhooked the Celtics to death and they hated that it was unstoppable

Probably a big part of it. Also they had little success against the entire team after '84. Then Detroit and the Bulls came along and it was adios.

 

[hoophuskee]

I always wondered why Kareem was so hated, since he rarely trash talked on the court, played a relatively clean game and rarely if ever denigrated his opponents. Contrarily because of his size he was pounded even in college just short of Shaq. Where instead of protecting him with rule changes like Jordan, they took away the dunk because of his ability. Whereas Laimbeer often gloated about his dirty play and thus the "Jordan Rule(s)".

I thought late in Kareem's career he was a crybaby. I thought every time he got touched late in his career he whined for a foul.

Still imo Lew Alcindor/Kareem Jabbar one of the 5 greatest players to ever play.

 

[hoophuskee]

Nope, nope, nope Jordy. McHale broke his foot the following year (86-87) Walton went down also, so they were never the same after 85-86. With Walton healthy, I remember the Celtics going out to LA and absolutely killing the Lakers that year. The 85-86 Celts could handle anybody.

You beat me to it.

Anyhow both were super teams.

 

[DaddyChoc]

You can talk about anyone else... but not Kareem, his game did all the talking for him. The Skyhook was amazing

 

[JordyG]

Kevin McHale was playing with a broken foot yet he still averaged 20.5 and 9 reboundis shooting 58.5%. And Bill Walton was hurt. He only played 10 reg season games and only 24 minutes the entire series. I would go with Celts of 85-86 but those teams 85-86 and 86-87 - they were awesome. I wouldn't put up much of an argument for either. They were both awesome.


SPORTS PEOPLE; McHale Has Surgery

Yeah. Well Kareem was 40 at that time with a laundry list of injuries, but still played well enough. Walton was always hurt almost from the minute he stepped off the UCLA campus and went to Portland. Yeah, and Walton was an old 34 at the time. People use to say his vegetarian diet contributed to him having "weak bones". Doubtful, but he was always plagued by injury. Two good teams, but basketball people still talk about "Showtime".

 

[JordyG]

Nope, nope, nope Jordy. McHale broke his foot the following year (86-87) Walton went down also, so they were never the same after 85-86. With Walton healthy, I remember the Celtics going out to LA and absolutely killing the Lakers that year. The 85-86 Celts could handle anybody.

By the way, McHale broke his foot March 27, 1987. They lost that year to the Lakers without him 4-2.

 

[JordyG]

Nope, nope, nope Jordy. McHale broke his foot the following year (86-87) Walton went down also, so they were never the same after 85-86. With Walton healthy, I remember the Celtics going out to LA and absolutely killing the Lakers that year. The 85-86 Celts could handle anybody.

Again, to repeat:

"Well Kareem was 40 at that time with a laundry list of injuries, but still played well enough. Walton was always hurt almost from the minute he stepped off the UCLA campus and went to Portland. Yeah, and Walton was an old 34 at the time. People use to say his vegetarian diet contributed to him having "weak bones". Doubtful, but he was always plagued by injury. Two good teams, but basketball people still talk about "Showtime"." After '87 Boston of course beat LA in '08 and lost in '10'. As for "taking anybody", I'll take the Jordan Bulls in '92 or the Lakers of '84 with a younger Kareem.

 

[hoophuskee]

Yeah. Well Kareem was 40 at that time with a laundry list of injuries, but still played well enough. Walton was always hurt almost from the minute he stepped off the UCLA campus and went to Portland. Yeah, and Walton was an old 34 at the time. People use to say his vegetarian diet contributed to him having "weak bones". Doubtful, but he was always plagued by injury. Two good teams, but basketball people still talk about "Showtime".

You had said something to the effect "They were the same teams." They weren't. Kareem may have had injuries - but it wasn't a broken foot. I don't think it's fair you compare age vs McHale's injury. OFC if you want to include Kareem's or Lew Alcnidor's prime years that would be different. That would be fantasy basketball. The 86-87 team had 40 yo Kareem. Not the prime Kareem.

And Kareem was playing. Walton really wasn't. So they weren't the same.

 

[JordyG]

You had said something to the effect "They were the same teams." They weren't. Kareem may have had injuries - but it wasn't a broken foot. I don't think it's fair you compare age vs McHale's injury. OFC if you want to include Kareem's or Lew Alcnidor's prime years that would be different. That would be fantasy basketball. The 86-87 team had 40 yo Kareem. Not the prime Kareem.

And Kareem was playing. Walton really wasn't. So they weren't the same.

I agree somewhat. I clearly misspoke on the year of McHale's injury. Comparing a frankly over the hill Jabbar to an injured player isn't the same. Yet saying if McHale or Walton wasn't injured the results would have been different is fantasy basketball as well. You just don't know what the outcome would have been. I do know that a healthy Walton was the rarity, not the norm. And McHale's injury did occur and they did lose. Again, two great teams, many HOF-ers. I'll still take Showtime any day.

 

[hoophuskee]

I agree somewhat. I clearly misspoke on the year of McHale's injury. Comparing a frankly over the hill Jabbar to an injured player isn't the same. Yet saying if McHale or Walton wasn't injured the results would have been different is fantasy basketball as well. You just don't know what the outcome would have been. I do know that a healthy Walton was the rarity, not the norm. And McHale's injury did occur and they did lose. Again, two great teams, many HOF-ers. I'll still take Showtime any day.

Yes but Walton was relatively healthy in 85-86. And so was McHale. The question was IF THAT 85-86 Celts team was healthy, in which they were healthy in 85-86, how would they do vs the healthy 86-87 Lakers? IMO looking at Walton's whole career is irrelevant. You should look at what he did in 85-86. Walton was so good in 85-86, that vs Houston, on a per minute basis, his stats were superior to Robert Parish.

McHale had a broken foot in 87. He didn't have it in 86.

And you're right - we are talking 85-86 Celts vs 86-87 Lakers. That's fantasy basketball. Great matchup.

 

[JordyG]

Yes but Walton was relatively healthy in 85-86. And so was McHale. The question was IF THAT 85-86 Celts team was healthy, in which they were healthy in 85-86, how would they do vs the healthy 86-87 Lakers? IMO looking at Walton's whole career is irrelevant. You should look at what he did in 85-86. Walton was so good in 85-86, that vs Houston, on a per minute basis, his stats were superior to Robert Parish.

McHale had a broken foot in 87. He didn't have it in 86.

And you're right - we are talking 85-86 Celts vs 86-87 Lakers. That's fantasy basketball. Great matchup.

Want fantasy? The the '96 Bulls plays the '15 Warriors UNDER TODAY'S RULES, and the winners play each other. Fantasy all over the place.

 

[UcMiami]

That was a period when I loved watching the pros and it was shortly after that I stopped following it with the same passion and eventually just stopped - it was still a team game where defense was permitted and players while spectacularly talented were still somewhat limited athletically - they hadn't completely outgrown the dimensions of the court.

And I remember talking to a dancer friend of mine who was on tour in Alaska and looking for distractions in her hotel room and happened on a Celtic game - first pro basketball (or any basketball) that she had ever really watched. With little point of reference she was amazed at Bird's vision and spacial awareness of everyone on the floor and ability to track where they would be in two or three seconds. She actually started seeking out his games.

There is almost a quality of the Harlem Globe Trotters to much of that highlight reel, except he is playing against fellow professionals trying to win, but he is still able to make them look as silly as the Washington Generals.

 

[JordyG]

That was a period when I loved watching the pros and it was shortly after that I stopped following it with the same passion and eventually just stopped - it was still a team game where defense was permitted and players while spectacularly talented were still somewhat limited athletically - they hadn't completely outgrown the dimensions of the court.

And I remember talking to a dancer friend of mine who was on tour in Alaska and looking for distractions in her hotel room and happened on a Celtic game - first pro basketball (or any basketball) that she had ever really watched. With little point of reference she was amazed at Bird's vision and spacial awareness of everyone on the floor and ability to track where they would be in two or three seconds. She actually started seeking out his games.

There is almost a quality of the Harlem Globe Trotters to much of that highlight reel, except he is playing against fellow professionals trying to win, but he is still able to make them look as silly as the Washington Generals.

I still think Bird doesn't get the props he deserves among basketball viewers today. To me, although many consider Jordan to be the greatest player they ever saw Bird was to me the more interesting to watch. Like I've said before, the refs and the Association protected Jordan and he became a brand. Not Bird or Magic nearly as much.

 

[DaddyChoc]

I still think Bird doesn't get the props he deserves among basketball viewers today. To me, although many consider Jordan to be the greatest player they ever saw Bird was to me the more interesting to watch. Like I've said before, the refs and the Association protected Jordan and he became a brand. Not Bird or Magic nearly as much.

Bird didn't demand it... he rode of into the sunset, plus his back issues cut his career kind of shorter than expected. Bird was too simple and wasn't great for TV ratings after his career was over. Jordan has stories but doesn't have personality. Shaq and Magic on the other hand are pure entertainment

 

[shinobimono]

Johnny Most was a clown, a complete homer!

Kareem skyhooked the Celtics to death and they hated that it was unstoppable

"Johnny Most was a clown, a complete homer!"
That's why he was so popular with Celtic fans. Being partisan is being a fan.
A fan might respect an opposing player, but it doesn't mean they love the player.
NBA finals are war, at least it felt that way when the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers played each other.

"Kareem skyhooked the Celtics to death and they hated that it was unstoppable"
The Celtics were far from helpless against him and caused him and the Lakers plenty of problems themselves.

 

[DaddyChoc]

"Johnny Most was a clown, a complete homer!"
That's why he was so popular with Celtic fans. Being partisan is being a fan.
A fan might respect an opposing player, but it doesn't mean they love the player.
NBA finals are war, at least it felt that way when the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers played each other.

"Kareem skyhooked the Celtics to death and they hated that it was unstoppable"
The Celtics were far from helpless against him and caused him and the Lakers plenty of problems themselves.

you're a Celtics fan

I'm a Lakers fan and I think Larry Legend was great, loved that guy! (saying this with Showtime Shades on) I'm fair, they all whined to the refs... complained, wanted clarification etc (shrugs).

McHale was a beast in the paint, twist and turn, footwork was nice... Mr BirdChest!

DJ, Ainge, Cornbread, Cowens, Tiny... nothing against the Celtics.

but don't act like Kareem was a slouch... you lose credibility that way

 

[geneticrex]

Best forward in the history of the sport.

 

[Scud49]

Merry Christmas morning everyone

Celtics video from the 85-86 season:

 

[Kibitzer]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, announcer Johnny Most harangued Kareem for whining, which fanned fan hatred for him. He targeted certain players and teams for special treatment. I tried to find some examples of his rants against Kareem, but I did find this one against the Detroit Piston and some of their players. I've heard much worse from him than you'll hear in this audio. Enjoy!

I was at The Gahden the night they honored Johnny Most. John Havlicek presented a gift from the players (a silver tray IIRC). As he made the presentation he chided Johnny: "Remember, I'm the guy who made you famous."

A raucous cheer erupted from the crowd.

 

[alexrgct]

By the way, McHale broke his foot March 27, 1987. They lost that year to the Lakers without him 4-2.

And Bird's back started to get bad, after which, the East was owned by Detroit and Chicago for thensuing eight seasons of the next decade.

 

[Sonny44]

Yes, incredibly I have seen a few replays of both NBA and college players hitting shots from behind the backboard, though I can't remember who. Actually, it's a more commonly made shot than you think. Check out this link for the NBA's top 10 behind-the-backboard shots (Bird accounts for two of them).

Those should be 4-pointers.

 

[DaddyChoc]

Merry Christmas morning everyone

Celtics video from the 85-86 season:

nice passing

 

[DaddyChoc]

 

[Monte]

The shot at 4.37 from behind the net. Has anyone else ever done that in a game?

I was there; at the Civic Center. The basket did not count, but he laughed about it.

 

[JordyG]

Bird didn't demand it... he rode of into the sunset, plus his back issues cut his career kind of shorter than expected. Bird was too simple and wasn't great for TV ratings after his career was over. Jordan has stories but doesn't have personality. Shaq and Magic on the other hand are pure entertainment

All 100 % true. Yet one thing Bird did demand. My respect, and he's welcome to it, and he deserves the love given him here.