Laimbeer: Stokes is DPoY | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Laimbeer: Stokes is DPoY

Status
Not open for further replies.
Not really seeing where I said that she is going to be a go-to player because of her shooting percentage. I think I said that if she runs the floor and works hard to establish position that Laimbeer could establish her as a go-to player. I did make reference to her shooting percentage, and Griner's, but my point was that if she works to get position that she should get the ball fed to her.

"Hopefully Laimbeer will address this with the Liberty and will establish Stokes as a go-to player when she has worked to get position in the paint. Big girls like Stokes and BG who run the floor and then work hard to pin their defenders behind them need to have the ball fed to them. BG and Stokes rank 3 and 5 in FG% so if they are open they need to be getting the ball."

I don't get what you're saying. I don't want to make a big deal over it but in the 1st para you're downplaying fg% and the 2nd para you're building it up. So I don't get your point. You specifically cite fg% in your 2n para.

So you think in the NBA every team that Tyson Chandler played for blew it? His fg% is usually spectacular.
 
I don't get what you're saying. I don't want to make a big deal over it but in the 1st para you're downplaying fg% and the 2nd para you're building it up. So I don't get your point. You specifically cite fg% in your 2n para.

So you think in the NBA every team that Tyson Chandler played for blew it? His fg% is usually spectacular.

Good Lord! I am saying that if she runs the floor well and posts up hard that the ball should be fed to her as I think she can be a successful scorer. I do think her FG% will continue to be good as she has the athleticism, size and length to score against most WNBA players.
 
The dynamics between her and Geno is why Laimbeer has the player she is.

It doesn't explain why Stokes didn't perform as well under Geno. Maybe she just clicks better with Laimbeer or in the Liberty system.
 
It doesn't explain why Stokes didn't perform as well under Geno. Maybe she just clicks better with Laimbeer or in the Liberty system.
  • AAC Defensive POY
  • All-AAC Second Team
  • Winner of the Senior CLASS award
  • National Defensive POY finalist
  • Holds UConn's shot blocking record at a program that had Rebecca Lobo, 6'8" Kara Wolters and Tina Charles, all National POYs
  • Recorded only the 4th triple double recorded at UConn
  • Was a major factor in at least 2 key games this year - at Notre Dame and vs Texas in the NCAA tournament. UConn wouldn't have won either game without her, and Geno gave her a heap of praise

I'm not sure what you're talking about.
 
It doesn't explain why Stokes didn't perform as well under Geno. Maybe she just clicks better with Laimbeer or in the Liberty system.

Thus far she isn't all that different yet. There's a few jumpers that she'll try on the Liberty that she generally would not have tried on UConn. On defense she's doing the same stuff that she did at UConn. The main difference is not in what Kiah has done, but in the value the coach places on what Kiah does. Laimbeer thinks she should have more minutes on his team than Geno wanted her to have at UConn.

I guess the most interesting thing is that she's made the transition to the pros so well on defense. I would have expected a much bigger dropoff in her defensive effectiveness, at least for her rookie year. But she seems to have gotten up to speed on that front very quickly.

That said, if the Laimbeer can continue to build her offensive confidence, I could see her averaging high single digits or low double digit scoring in a couple of years. That would be good enough to make her a starter on almost any team, which would be amazingly cool from my perspective. :)

Random thought: Can Kiah dunk? With her physical attributes it at least seems possible in a practice setting, if not in a game. Never heard a sniff of her attempting one anywhere, though.
 
It doesn't explain why Stokes didn't perform as well under Geno. Maybe she just clicks better with Laimbeer or in the Liberty system.

She's doing exactly what she did at UConn: block shots and play great defense. She lost her starting spot to Tuck last season because Tuck was and is a better offensive player and Geno didn't like playing 4 on 5.

Kiah's stats as a senior

18.3 minutes
3.7 blocks p/g
6.8 rebounds p/g
4.5 points p/g

Kiah's stats on Liberty (14 games)

24 minutes
2.6 blocks/gm
6.3 rebounds/gm
5.7 points/gm
 
.-.
Thus far she isn't all that different yet. There's a few jumpers that she'll try on the Liberty that she generally would not have tried on UConn. On defense she's doing the same stuff that she did at UConn.
That 15' shot from the elbow was in Kiah's repertoire at UConn, too.

 
Thus far she isn't all that different yet. .

The key is yet. Basketball is now her job. She's a professional. She can work on her game as much as she wants. No more classes. No more limits on how many hours the coaches can spend with her.

One thing I want to see her do more as a pro is try to score off offensive rebounds. How many times would she grab an offensive board -- she has an uncanny nose for the ball, btw -- and be content to throw the ball back out to her teammates. She needs to look to score and draw fouls.

The WNBA runs more pick-and-roll offense than we see in college. Kiah is skilled enough to run that effectively with the Liberty guards.
 
I'm just amazed at some posters thinking it's so easy to be a scorer and in addition thinking only offense is a way to analyze a player.

DO people realize how HARD it is to consistently get low post position and while you're getting bumped and pushed in the paint a bit to be able to convert? Not to mention the times you don't have perfect position and you need to put the ball on the floor and then maybe get doubled from areas you may not be totally aware. Yet how often is she low posting an scoring from a low post move now in the WNBA?

How many college teams could really destroy UCONN on the inside? The few that did - other than USC- Kiah played and usually did very, very well. The games which opposing teams didn't have much on the inside and she wasn't going to score why would you give her big minutes? To slow the game down? You have all these supreme recruits and you think it best to slow the game down to give the big a few more touches? In addition you think future recruits want to play slow-ball? The game is fast in the pros- why would you look to slow things down?
 
  • AAC Defensive POY
  • All-AAC Second Team
  • Winner of the Senior CLASS award
  • National Defensive POY finalist
  • Holds UConn's shot blocking record at a program that had Rebecca Lobo, 6'8" Kara Wolters and Tina Charles, all National POYs
  • Recorded only the 4th triple double recorded at UConn
  • Was a major factor in at least 2 key games this year - at Notre Dame and vs Texas in the NCAA tournament. UConn wouldn't have won either game without her, and Geno gave her a heap of praise
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I like Kiah Stokes as much as anyone, but I don't think she was the difference in the Texas game. It was a 51 point victory in which she played 19 minutes, had 4 points and 7 rebounds. The only chance Texas had in that game would have been if Stewie and Mo (combined 56 points) had gotten lost on their way to the arena.
 
The key is yet. Basketball is now her job. She's a professional. She can work on her game as much as she wants. No more classes. No more limits on how many hours the coaches can spend with her.

One thing I want to see her do more as a pro is try to score off offensive rebounds. How many times would she grab an offensive board -- she has an uncanny nose for the ball, btw -- and be content to throw the ball back out to her teammates. She needs to look to score and draw fouls.
You are so right. I never thought she got enough credit for that from announcers (or anyone else, for that matter).
 
  • AAC Defensive POY
  • All-AAC Second Team
  • Winner of the Senior CLASS award
  • National Defensive POY finalist
  • Holds UConn's shot blocking record at a program that had Rebecca Lobo, 6'8" Kara Wolters and Tina Charles, all National POYs
  • Recorded only the 4th triple double recorded at UConn
  • Was a major factor in at least 2 key games this year - at Notre Dame and vs Texas in the NCAA tournament. UConn wouldn't have won either game without her, and Geno gave her a heap of praise
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Come on, Nan. I've been on this board for the entirety of Stokes UCONN career and the common thinking was that Stokes was not reaching her potential. She is a naturally gifted defensive player and I think most agree that she is already performing better after 14 games in the WNBA than she did at UCONN.
 
.-.
She's doing exactly what she did at UConn: block shots and play great defense. She lost her starting spot to Tuck last season because Tuck was and is a better offensive player and Geno didn't like playing 4 on 5.

Kiah's stats as a senior

18.3 minutes
3.7 blocks p/g
6.8 rebounds p/g
4.5 points p/g

Kiah's stats on Liberty (14 games)

24 minutes
2.6 blocks/gm
6.3 rebounds/gm
5.7 points/gm

I think we would all agree that the talent in the WNBA is far greater than the NCAA, yet her stats are very comparable to the much weaker NCAA competition.
 
I like Kiah Stokes as much as anyone, but I don't think she was the difference in the Texas game. It was a 51 point victory in which she played 19 minutes, had 4 points and 7 rebounds. The only chance Texas had in that game would have been if Stewie and Mo (combined 56 points) had gotten lost on their way to the arena.
I was at the game. Texas was playing UConn even, led by their two big girls in the paint. UConn gave up layup after layup and the Husky fans in the crowd started mumbling about it being the Stanford game all over again. Then, in comes Kiah. She played tough defense in the paint and swatted away layup attempts by the guards. Because she was so intimidating in the post, the UConn guards were able to play tougher defense on the guards on the perimeter. Yes, she was the difference in the game.
 
I like Kiah Stokes as much as anyone, but I don't think she was the difference in the Texas game. It was a 51 point victory in which she played 19 minutes, had 4 points and 7 rebounds. The only chance Texas had in that game would have been if Stewie and Mo (combined 56 points) had gotten lost on their way to the arena.

Maybe UCONN would have only won by 45 points instead of 51 but saying that UCONN would not have won without her is quite a stretch.
 
Come on, Nan. I've been on this board for the entirety of Stokes UCONN career and the common thinking was that Stokes was not reaching her potential. She is a naturally gifted defensive player and I think most agree that she is already performing better after 14 games in the WNBA than she did at UCONN.
Some, yes, most, no. I certainly don't. See the stats that Cat posted.

As for the talent level, during the entirety of her career, Kiah has played against some of the best players in the country, including some Olympians. That's a benefit of being a player at a UConn or a Tennessee, Standford, Duke, etc.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
I think we would all agree that the talent in the WNBA is far greater than the NCAA, yet her stats are very comparable to the much weaker NCAA competition.

She's was an exceptional shot-blocker and rebounder at UConn and she's an exceptional shot-blocker and rebounder in the WNBA. Isn't that how it should work? Why is this a surprise to anyone? She was not aggressive offensively at UConn and she still isn't in the pros. Again, no surprise.
 
She's was an exceptional shot-blocker and rebounder at UConn and she's an exceptional shot-blocker and rebounder in the WNBA. Isn't that how it should work? Why is this a surprise to anyone? She was not aggressive offensively at UConn and she still isn't in the pros. Again, no surprise.

Great post. Great post. Irrefutable.
 
.-.
I like Kiah Stokes as much as anyone, but I don't think she was the difference in the Texas game. It was a 51 point victory in which she played 19 minutes, had 4 points and 7 rebounds. The only chance Texas had in that game would have been if Stewie and Mo (combined 56 points) had gotten lost on their way to the arena.

I don't agree. I thought Kiah was huge in that game. We were getting pounded in the paint. The lead went up and up and up once Stokes came in and changed the momentum.
 
I don't agree. I thought Kiah was huge in that game. We were getting pounded in the paint. The lead went up and up and up once Stokes came in and changed the momentum.
It was a 51 point blowout. Unless your last name is Jordan, in a game like that, no one person is going to be the difference. Kiah came into the game at 12:35 with the score 17-12, then the score went to 24-14 before Texas closed back to within 5, all while Kiah was in the game. Then it became the Breanna Stewart show and the team couldn't miss from 3. Look at the start of the second half when the team really ran away with it and added 14 points to their lead. Kiah was on the bench for that entire stretch, so it is possible for the team to put a game against Texas away without Kiah. The team shot 56% and 42% from 3. It's gonna be hard to lose a game with those numbers with or without Kiah who played less than half the game. I like Kiah, but I seriously doubt UConn would have lost that game if not for her 19 minutes, 4 points, and 7 of the team's 42 rebounds.
 
It was a 51 point blowout. Unless your last name is Jordan, in a game like that, no one person is going to be the difference. Kiah came into the game at 12:35 with the score 17-12, then the score went to 24-14 before Texas closed back to within 5, all while Kiah was in the game. Then it became the Breanna Stewart show and the team couldn't miss from 3. Look at the start of the second half when the team really ran away with it and added 14 points to their lead. Kiah was on the bench for that entire stretch, so it is possible for the team to put a game against Texas away without Kiah. The team shot 56% and 42% from 3. It's gonna be hard to lose a game with those numbers with or without Kiah who played less than half the game. I like Kiah, but I seriously doubt UConn would have lost that game if not for her 19 minutes, 4 points, and 7 of the team's 42 rebounds.

You're right about 17-12 so I don't know why you think it would have been a 51 point game w/o Stokes. It was 17-12 without Stokes. UCONN was losing the board battle at the time 11-3. Texas had six offensive rebounds. And once Stokes entered the next 2:20 seconds she had 3 blocked shots. Over the next 7 minutes when UCONN extended the lead to twenty UCONN was winning the battle of the boards 7-6.

When Stoeks was out Texas converted 6 points from their offensive rebounding- keeping the game close. Once Stokes enbtered in that 7 minute span they converted just 2.

IMO it's clear Stokes presence impacted the game - BIG TIME. When you speak of Jordan-- nah what happened here in this game is that UCONN brought in the greatest defender in UCONN History - a player who had an impact of Hakeem Olajuwon and / or Bil Russell on defense. Three blocked in TWO minutes, are you kidding me? We were getting blasted on the boards by 8 in such a short time span then turned it around to be up by 1 when Stokes came in during her stint, - are you kidding me? Just wow Stokes was HUGE in that game. That lead went to 51 - because a lot of it had to do with Stokes changing the pace/flow of the game.

IMO NO WAY NO WAY with UCONN getting so badly crushed on the glass like that would Stewie not have gotten worn down similar to Stanford. Not saying we would have lost just saying Stokes was HUGE. HUGE.
 
Agree that in the Texas game (as in so many other big ones), the entry of Kiah into the game was the tipping whack-a-mole point that turned the game around, changed the momentum, and set Texas back on on its heels in a way that they never could recover from. Even if UConn did increase its lead against a reeling Longhorn team after she came out, it is plain silly to state that she was not a major force in that game. Yes I do think UConn would still have won the game if she had been laid up with the flu, but there would have been a whole lot of BYers griping after the game about how many OR's and layups Texas got. Why not just give her the credit she so richly deserves instead of trying to pretend she was not a major contributor to the huge win?

As to her performance with the Liberty vs. her time at UConn, it doesn't look to me that her numbers are hugely different, and I'm thinking that if the same basketball.reference type stats were kept for the college game as are kept for the WNBA, they would show the pro Kiah Stokes to be not greatly different from the college Kiah Stokes, and she has a huge Offensive Rating for the Liberty. I have never understood why the same BYers who complain that Stewie isn't scoring 25 ppg, and that Tuck and Jefferson and KML aren't scoring 20 ppg, and that Nurse isn't chipping in 15 ppg are also wanting Kiah to be stuffing in at least 15 ppg herself. Sorry but there's only so many shots to go around, and Geno got exactly what he needed out of Kiah to win three NCs with her coming off the bench. Sure Laimbeer is maybe pushing her to make one or two more baskets per game, but he needs it and Geno didn't.

Why the gripes?
 
Couldn't disagree more. Stokes is an elite athlete and defensive player. She was never given a chance to develop offensively at UConn. Time will tell.
Absolute, BS.
 
  • AAC Defensive POY
  • All-AAC Second Team
  • Winner of the Senior CLASS award
  • National Defensive POY finalist
  • Holds UConn's shot blocking record at a program that had Rebecca Lobo, 6'8" Kara Wolters and Tina Charles, all National POYs
  • Recorded only the 4th triple double recorded at UConn
  • Was a major factor in at least 2 key games this year - at Notre Dame and vs Texas in the NCAA tournament. UConn wouldn't have won either game without her, and Geno gave her a heap of praise
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I think it's apparent that no one was concerned about her ability to defend or rebound and these awards attest to that. She did, however, receive an appreciable amount of criticism (mild) concerning her offensive efforts while playing for the Huskies. It was said on numerous occasions that she never seemed comfortable on that side of the ball and it's there where she seems to be now making strides. Another thing is there was innuendos that she wouldn't have nearly as much success defending in the WNBA due to the higher level of athleticism and quickness on the offensive side there! She does seem to be having a high level of success, doesn't she!!!! I and a number of others had said in the past that her confidence in her offensive abilities or lack thereof, had somewhat stymied her while in Storrs and it sounds like maybe confidence is no longer holding her back! I just know that I think she's great and I'm loving her successful start in the WNBA!
 
.-.
It was said on numerous occasions that she never seemed comfortable on that side of the ball and it's there where she seems to be now making strides.

Absolutely Kiah is doing sensational. Many of us felt she was worthy of a 1st round pick to boot because of the coaching she received, the quality, of play she produced, and her skill set.

But can you tell me what "significant" offensive strides she has made? Or do you feel her offensive strides haven't really been significant?

She is getting more minutes so she is averaging more points but on a per minute basis she scored slightly more at UCONN with a higher fg% at UCONN as well. She has a slightly improved assists to turnover ratio in the pros. SO would you call her offensive strides as significant?
 
Most of stat comparisons for Kiah with the Huskies vs. the Liberty are indeed pretty similar except for two fairly major differences that do put some extra zip in her numbers. We can accept that her shooting percentage and rebounding rate had to tick down slightly with the bigger bodies around her in the pros, and that her assists might go up a tad as she became a more important fixture on offense on the Liberty.

The first major difference is as was mentioned the mpg, as she is getting about 1/3 more time on the floor (about 6 minutes) than she did at UConn, so many stats will get a boost by around that rate. But the other major offensive stat change that is much higher than that 33% marker is FTAs, as she is averaging 2.1 for the Liberty and it was only 1.0 for UConn, so more than 100% more. Though not a big boost to ppg (partly because she's shooting them at 62.5% vs. 75% for the Huskies), it indicates she is a little more active at trying to put the ball in the hole and also learning to draw the fouls.

Or then again, maybe it just means they have better refs in the pros.
 
"She was never given a chance to develop offensively at UConn"

How do you figure?

Watching Stokes play for the Liberty, I see a player who is far more assertive and confident on the offensive side of the ball. At UConn, Stokes was used as a defensive specialist and seemed reluctant to shoot and did not get nearly as many touches. Even with a healthy lead, there were plenty games when Stokes seemed reluctant to take open shots unless she was right under the basket. Now she is taking them with confidence and hits them.

Just a few months removed from her UConn season, Stokes is even more dominant defensively and is an integral part of the Liberty offense. In the recent NY/San Antonio game, Stokes not only dominated defensively... blocking shots, getting steals and generally creating havoc when she was on the court... but was just as assertive on the offensive side. She had teammates LOOKING for her. The announcers commented especially about Boyd and Sugar looking for Stokes. She got touches, mades good decisions, hit the open man, hits open jumpers, etc.
 
Watching Stokes play for the Liberty, I see a player who is far more assertive and confident on the offensive side of the ball. At UConn, Stokes was used as a defensive specialist and seemed reluctant to shoot and did not get nearly as many touches. Even with a healthy lead, there were plenty games when Stokes seemed reluctant to take open shots unless she was right under the basket. Now she is taking them with confidence and hits them.

Just a few months removed from her UConn season, Stokes is even more dominant defensively and is an integral part of the Liberty offense. In the recent NY/San Antonio game, Stokes not only dominated defensively... blocking shots, getting steals and generally creating havoc when she was on the court... but was just as assertive on the offensive side. She had teammates LOOKING for her. The announcers commented especially about Boyd and Sugar looking for Stokes. She got touches, mades good decisions, hit the open man, hits open jumpers, etc.

Even assuming everything you say is true - and, not a reflection of minutes per game, etc. - that doesn't substantiate the contention that "she was never given a chance..". That sort of statement puts all the onus on somebody, everybody, else but Kiah.

People forget that the player plays a role in the player-coach/player-team relationship. There are two parties involved - it's not a one-way street. Although not at the elite college level that UConn is, having coached girls for 20 years, I can tell you that sometimes you can't get a certain level of performance out of a kid until they're ready to give it. And, yes, each coach and each kid will have a different dynamic, a different end result. But, it ain't all on the coach. Every one of us responds and produces differently if you change our environment - you see it in professional sports all the time. Sometimes, it is the change of environment - sometimes, it's the change in the player.

I coached mostly middle-school and high school age kids. I saw a huge difference in kids from 6th to 8th grade, from 10th to 12th grade. We see dramatic changes from freshmen & sophomores to juniors and seniors. Why should we assume that the growth, improvement, development stops there? People change from 21 to 22, from 22 to 23, as they entire the professional workplace, with different demands, perks, advantages and disadvantages. They mature: they focus. They get better at what they do.

Nowhere in here do I say that Geno was the best coach, the ideal coach for Kiah. Nowhere do I say that she doesn't have a better coach for her, now. I merely challenge, and question, the presumption that her relatively lack of offensive production at UConn is all a reflection of a flaw in coaching. Simply put, it ain't that simple, and it ain't that easy a "problem" to diagnose.
 
Last edited:
Simply put, it ain't that simple, and it ain't that easy a "problem" to diagnose.
3 NCs.

Not necessarily a problem at all. "You take what you need (to win an NC), and you leave the rest (to a coach who wants and needs to invest a lot more time to get Kiah in the mindset of being more aggressive in the paint and being Bad Boy about it)." Not every UConn big player has to become a Tina Charles in WCBB, though they might develop some more good stuff in the WNBA. Quite happy with what Kiah did for UConn and the buckets she gave the Huskies.
 
I like Kiah Stokes as much as anyone, but I don't think she was the difference in the Texas game. It was a 51 point victory in which she played 19 minutes, had 4 points and 7 rebounds. The only chance Texas had in that game would have been if Stewie and Mo (combined 56 points) had gotten lost on their way to the arena.

I have to respectfully disagree. Before I commented I just went back and watched the first half of the Texas game. Kiah was a major contributor in that game. She came int the game at the 12:35 mark with the score 17-12. Up until that point Texas was giving UConn trouble on the interior. Not only was Kiah blocking/changing shots and rebounding, but her passing, screening, and spacing was exceptional. I actually charted each Texas possession when Kiah was in the game and it was pretty ugly. What I saw was with Kiahs entrance was Uconn being able to control the interior. This allowed them to get out on the fast break. When Kiah left the game at the 1:09 mark the score was 50-24.

I see my post completely echoes Hoophuskees post. So I will stop here.
 
.-.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Forum statistics

Threads
167,983
Messages
4,548,306
Members
10,431
Latest member
TeganK


Top Bottom