Laimbeer: Stokes is DPoY

[hoophuskee]

It was a 51 point blowout. Unless your last name is Jordan, in a game like that, no one person is going to be the difference. Kiah came into the game at 12:35 with the score 17-12, then the score went to 24-14 before Texas closed back to within 5, all while Kiah was in the game. Then it became the Breanna Stewart show and the team couldn't miss from 3. Look at the start of the second half when the team really ran away with it and added 14 points to their lead. Kiah was on the bench for that entire stretch, so it is possible for the team to put a game against Texas away without Kiah. The team shot 56% and 42% from 3. It's gonna be hard to lose a game with those numbers with or without Kiah who played less than half the game. I like Kiah, but I seriously doubt UConn would have lost that game if not for her 19 minutes, 4 points, and 7 of the team's 42 rebounds.

You're right about 17-12 so I don't know why you think it would have been a 51 point game w/o Stokes. It was 17-12 without Stokes. UCONN was losing the board battle at the time 11-3. Texas had six offensive rebounds. And once Stokes entered the next 2:20 seconds she had 3 blocked shots. Over the next 7 minutes when UCONN extended the lead to twenty UCONN was winning the battle of the boards 7-6.

When Stoeks was out Texas converted 6 points from their offensive rebounding- keeping the game close. Once Stokes enbtered in that 7 minute span they converted just 2.

IMO it's clear Stokes presence impacted the game - BIG TIME. When you speak of Jordan-- nah what happened here in this game is that UCONN brought in the greatest defender in UCONN History - a player who had an impact of Hakeem Olajuwon and / or Bil Russell on defense. Three blocked in TWO minutes, are you kidding me? We were getting blasted on the boards by 8 in such a short time span then turned it around to be up by 1 when Stokes came in during her stint, - are you kidding me? Just wow Stokes was HUGE in that game. That lead went to 51 - because a lot of it had to do with Stokes changing the pace/flow of the game.

IMO NO WAY NO WAY with UCONN getting so badly crushed on the glass like that would Stewie not have gotten worn down similar to Stanford. Not saying we would have lost just saying Stokes was HUGE. HUGE.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Agree that in the Texas game (as in so many other big ones), the entry of Kiah into the game was the tipping whack-a-mole point that turned the game around, changed the momentum, and set Texas back on on its heels in a way that they never could recover from. Even if UConn did increase its lead against a reeling Longhorn team after she came out, it is plain silly to state that she was not a major force in that game. Yes I do think UConn would still have won the game if she had been laid up with the flu, but there would have been a whole lot of BYers griping after the game about how many OR's and layups Texas got. Why not just give her the credit she so richly deserves instead of trying to pretend she was not a major contributor to the huge win?

As to her performance with the Liberty vs. her time at UConn, it doesn't look to me that her numbers are hugely different, and I'm thinking that if the same basketball.reference type stats were kept for the college game as are kept for the WNBA, they would show the pro Kiah Stokes to be not greatly different from the college Kiah Stokes, and she has a huge Offensive Rating for the Liberty. I have never understood why the same BYers who complain that Stewie isn't scoring 25 ppg, and that Tuck and Jefferson and KML aren't scoring 20 ppg, and that Nurse isn't chipping in 15 ppg are also wanting Kiah to be stuffing in at least 15 ppg herself. Sorry but there's only so many shots to go around, and Geno got exactly what he needed out of Kiah to win three NCs with her coming off the bench. Sure Laimbeer is maybe pushing her to make one or two more baskets per game, but he needs it and Geno didn't.

Why the gripes?

 

[Icebear]

Couldn't disagree more. Stokes is an elite athlete and defensive player. She was never given a chance to develop offensively at UConn. Time will tell.

Absolute, BS.

 

[Buzzyboy]

• AAC Defensive POY
• All-AAC Second Team
• Winner of the Senior CLASS award
• National Defensive POY finalist
• Holds UConn's shot blocking record at a program that had Rebecca Lobo, 6'8" Kara Wolters and Tina Charles, all National POYs
• Recorded only the 4th triple double recorded at UConn
• Was a major factor in at least 2 key games this year - at Notre Dame and vs Texas in the NCAA tournament. UConn wouldn't have won either game without her, and Geno gave her a heap of praise

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I think it's apparent that no one was concerned about her ability to defend or rebound and these awards attest to that. She did, however, receive an appreciable amount of criticism (mild) concerning her offensive efforts while playing for the Huskies. It was said on numerous occasions that she never seemed comfortable on that side of the ball and it's there where she seems to be now making strides. Another thing is there was innuendos that she wouldn't have nearly as much success defending in the WNBA due to the higher level of athleticism and quickness on the offensive side there! She does seem to be having a high level of success, doesn't she!!!! I and a number of others had said in the past that her confidence in her offensive abilities or lack thereof, had somewhat stymied her while in Storrs and it sounds like maybe confidence is no longer holding her back! I just know that I think she's great and I'm loving her successful start in the WNBA!

 

[hoophuskee]

It was said on numerous occasions that she never seemed comfortable on that side of the ball and it's there where she seems to be now making strides.

Absolutely Kiah is doing sensational. Many of us felt she was worthy of a 1st round pick to boot because of the coaching she received, the quality, of play she produced, and her skill set.

But can you tell me what "significant" offensive strides she has made? Or do you feel her offensive strides haven't really been significant?

She is getting more minutes so she is averaging more points but on a per minute basis she scored slightly more at UCONN with a higher fg% at UCONN as well. She has a slightly improved assists to turnover ratio in the pros. SO would you call her offensive strides as significant?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Most of stat comparisons for Kiah with the Huskies vs. the Liberty are indeed pretty similar except for two fairly major differences that do put some extra zip in her numbers. We can accept that her shooting percentage and rebounding rate had to tick down slightly with the bigger bodies around her in the pros, and that her assists might go up a tad as she became a more important fixture on offense on the Liberty.

The first major difference is as was mentioned the mpg, as she is getting about 1/3 more time on the floor (about 6 minutes) than she did at UConn, so many stats will get a boost by around that rate. But the other major offensive stat change that is much higher than that 33% marker is FTAs, as she is averaging 2.1 for the Liberty and it was only 1.0 for UConn, so more than 100% more. Though not a big boost to ppg (partly because she's shooting them at 62.5% vs. 75% for the Huskies), it indicates she is a little more active at trying to put the ball in the hole and also learning to draw the fouls.

Or then again, maybe it just means they have better refs in the pros.

 

[TFintheMix]

"She was never given a chance to develop offensively at UConn"

How do you figure?

Watching Stokes play for the Liberty, I see a player who is far more assertive and confident on the offensive side of the ball. At UConn, Stokes was used as a defensive specialist and seemed reluctant to shoot and did not get nearly as many touches. Even with a healthy lead, there were plenty games when Stokes seemed reluctant to take open shots unless she was right under the basket. Now she is taking them with confidence and hits them.

Just a few months removed from her UConn season, Stokes is even more dominant defensively and is an integral part of the Liberty offense. In the recent NY/San Antonio game, Stokes not only dominated defensively... blocking shots, getting steals and generally creating havoc when she was on the court... but was just as assertive on the offensive side. She had teammates LOOKING for her. The announcers commented especially about Boyd and Sugar looking for Stokes. She got touches, mades good decisions, hit the open man, hits open jumpers, etc.

 

[pinotbear]

Watching Stokes play for the Liberty, I see a player who is far more assertive and confident on the offensive side of the ball. At UConn, Stokes was used as a defensive specialist and seemed reluctant to shoot and did not get nearly as many touches. Even with a healthy lead, there were plenty games when Stokes seemed reluctant to take open shots unless she was right under the basket. Now she is taking them with confidence and hits them.

Just a few months removed from her UConn season, Stokes is even more dominant defensively and is an integral part of the Liberty offense. In the recent NY/San Antonio game, Stokes not only dominated defensively... blocking shots, getting steals and generally creating havoc when she was on the court... but was just as assertive on the offensive side. She had teammates LOOKING for her. The announcers commented especially about Boyd and Sugar looking for Stokes. She got touches, mades good decisions, hit the open man, hits open jumpers, etc.

Even assuming everything you say is true - and, not a reflection of minutes per game, etc. - that doesn't substantiate the contention that "she was never given a chance..". That sort of statement puts all the onus on somebody, everybody, else but Kiah.

People forget that the player plays a role in the player-coach/player-team relationship. There are two parties involved - it's not a one-way street. Although not at the elite college level that UConn is, having coached girls for 20 years, I can tell you that sometimes you can't get a certain level of performance out of a kid until they're ready to give it. And, yes, each coach and each kid will have a different dynamic, a different end result. But, it ain't all on the coach. Every one of us responds and produces differently if you change our environment - you see it in professional sports all the time. Sometimes, it is the change of environment - sometimes, it's the change in the player.

I coached mostly middle-school and high school age kids. I saw a huge difference in kids from 6th to 8th grade, from 10th to 12th grade. We see dramatic changes from freshmen & sophomores to juniors and seniors. Why should we assume that the growth, improvement, development stops there? People change from 21 to 22, from 22 to 23, as they entire the professional workplace, with different demands, perks, advantages and disadvantages. They mature: they focus. They get better at what they do.

Nowhere in here do I say that Geno was the best coach, the ideal coach for Kiah. Nowhere do I say that she doesn't have a better coach for her, now. I merely challenge, and question, the presumption that her relatively lack of offensive production at UConn is all a reflection of a flaw in coaching. Simply put, it ain't that simple, and it ain't that easy a "problem" to diagnose.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Simply put, it ain't that simple, and it ain't that easy a "problem" to diagnose.

3 NCs.

Not necessarily a problem at all. "You take what you need (to win an NC), and you leave the rest (to a coach who wants and needs to invest a lot more time to get Kiah in the mindset of being more aggressive in the paint and being Bad Boy about it)." Not every UConn big player has to become a Tina Charles in WCBB, though they might develop some more good stuff in the WNBA. Quite happy with what Kiah did for UConn and the buckets she gave the Huskies.

 

[Kmoney]

I like Kiah Stokes as much as anyone, but I don't think she was the difference in the Texas game. It was a 51 point victory in which she played 19 minutes, had 4 points and 7 rebounds. The only chance Texas had in that game would have been if Stewie and Mo (combined 56 points) had gotten lost on their way to the arena.

I have to respectfully disagree. Before I commented I just went back and watched the first half of the Texas game. Kiah was a major contributor in that game. She came int the game at the 12:35 mark with the score 17-12. Up until that point Texas was giving UConn trouble on the interior. Not only was Kiah blocking/changing shots and rebounding, but her passing, screening, and spacing was exceptional. I actually charted each Texas possession when Kiah was in the game and it was pretty ugly. What I saw was with Kiahs entrance was Uconn being able to control the interior. This allowed them to get out on the fast break. When Kiah left the game at the 1:09 mark the score was 50-24.

I see my post completely echoes Hoophuskees post. So I will stop here.

 

[hoophuskee]

I have to respectfully disagree. Before I commented I just went back and watched the first half of the Texas game. Kiah was a major contributor in that game. She came int the game at the 12:35 mark with the score 17-12. Up until that point Texas was giving UConn trouble on the interior. Not only was Kiah blocking/changing shots and rebounding, but her passing, screening, and spacing was exceptional. I actually charted each Texas possession when Kiah was in the game and it was pretty ugly. What I saw was with Kiahs entrance was Uconn being able to control the interior. This allowed them to get out on the fast break. When Kiah left the game at the 1:09 mark the score was 50-24.

I see my post completely echoes Hoophuskees post. So I will stop here.

Music to my ears! If you want to - please post away.

 

[hoophuskee]

1--- I know some on here have said they’ve seen Stokes with this new confidence- maybe slightly she might but in general I think those that say it – basically have made it up. Unless anyone that has said it can define “the new confidence?” I’ll watch in games. Hope she is more than 100 but is 1000% more confident and more. So please those that say it- please tell. I’m not being sarcastic. – So please tell.

It seems like I can give stats below what can the ones that claim they “see” more confidence what can they say?

2—As usual Dobbs brings up an excellent point of more ft’s per game, but on a per minute basis it isn’t that much (averages out to a little over 6 more free throws for the entire season thus far comparing on a per minute basis). And on a per minute basis Stokes shot a bit more at UCONN vs now. Thus for anyone to declare she is shooting more- she is because of ft attempts but overall as the stats and Dobbs have shown – her offensive number improvement numbers though are slight. Yet her percentages aren’t better in the pros vs UCONN, so how can someone say they see so much more confidence when her percentages are worse? It's "slight."

And if her percentages are worse- then how is this a significant improvement? It's slight, isn't it?

3--- And for those to suggest her defense is more dominant now than in college- imo any fair-minded person will determine that to be laughable. For example all the games we won like 60-10 in the paint and even last night for example Tina guarded Griner. How many games UCONN was challenged in which Kiah got 10 plus minutes did she not guard the best player?

4--- And for those t say Liberty were looking for her- well Boyd and Sugar and Carson – are erratic shooters, are they not? Secondly, because they “look for her” – does that mean she is “better” or does it mean her teammates are worse in terms of relative comparison vs the competition? Or does it mean “they have no other place to go?” Sugar for example is a hot-and-cold shooter. Third and most importantly, how much are they really “looking for her” THIS SEASON when her attempts per game are just slightly above what she received at UCONN?

5--- And we’ve heard they need to get her the ball more as all she needs to do is run the floor and post hard. Well what happens when she isn’t posting “hard” and is content to get the ball to Tina – the former MVP of the WNBA? She isn’t getting that many more attempts vs college so does this mean she isn’t posting hard or her teammates and coaches are incompetent or she remains content to ride Tina?

 

[hoophuskee]

Two small corrections or clarifying a bit

For number 1 when I say please tell- I mean please tell what are the things one sees that she is more confident? What are the signs that one sees in which they know she is more confident?

2-- Regarding "6 more free throws" on a per minute basis I meant as of this moment it would be 6 more free throws.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I have to respectfully disagree. Before I commented I just went back and watched the first half of the Texas game. Kiah was a major contributor in that game. She came int the game at the 12:35 mark with the score 17-12. Up until that point Texas was giving UConn trouble on the interior. Not only was Kiah blocking/changing shots and rebounding, but her passing, screening, and spacing was exceptional. I actually charted each Texas possession when Kiah was in the game and it was pretty ugly. What I saw was with Kiahs entrance was Uconn being able to control the interior. This allowed them to get out on the fast break. When Kiah left the game at the 1:09 mark the score was 50-24.

I see my post completely echoes Hoophuskees post. So I will stop here.

The original post was that UConn would have lost to Texas if not for Kiah Stokes. I didn't realize everyone except me was nervous about that game and thought we were going to lose it if not for Kiah saving the day. UConn has some pretty good players in that starting five - Stewie and Mo outscoring the entire Texas team, for example. There were other games where the team got off to a rocky start and were eventually able to pull away, so I don't know why Texas as an opponent would have been any different, especially since it was a team weakened by injuries. Even McGee-Stafford was playing on a reinforced tibia. As the team showed at the start of the second half, they would have put that game away one way or another, even as Kiah watched from the bench during what might have been the best 4 minutes of basketball the team played all year. Sure the game was close when Kiah initially entered, as most 7-minute old basketball games are, but that Texas team was clearly over matched in that game as the 51 point margin of victory indicates.

 

[hoophuskee]

The original post was that UConn would have lost to Texas if not for Kiah Stokes. I didn't realize everyone except me was nervous about that game and thought we were going to lose it if not for Kiah saving the day. UConn has some pretty good players in that starting five - Stewie and Mo outscoring the entire Texas team, for example. There were other games where the team got off to a rocky start and were eventually able to pull away, so I don't know why Texas as an opponent would have been any different, especially since it was a team weakened by injuries. Even McGee-Stafford was playing on a reinforced tibia. As the team showed at the start of the second half, they would have put that game away one way or another, even as Kiah watched from the bench during what might have been the best 4 minutes of basketball the team played all year. Sure the game was close when Kiah initially entered, as most 7-minute old basketball games are, but that Texas team was clearly over matched in that game as the 51 point margin of victory indicates.

The post has also been mentioned to also reflect the game may have been close if not for Kiah. IMO the point that nan had made overall was that Kiah had a huge impact in that game. Do you agree that Kiah had a HUGE impact on the game? if not - so who do you think had an impact ont he game? Only players that scored a lot of points? Defense and rebounding can't turn around a game which could be close and turning it into a blowout?

And imo your point about UCONN getting off to other rocky starts but winning imo is irrelevant. UONN kept Stanford in the game and how did that go? We had a lead just like Texas- so how did that go? As for your point about "being worried" -- really- so all the losses in UCONN History other than vs top 5 teams you were worried? You can predict all the prior UCONN defeats vs non-top 5 teams and all the close calls? If you can't, then why do you bring up the beginning of the Texas game in which you expected UCONN to win as relevant?

And you want to ignore UCONN getting annihilated on the glass and thinking magically they would have corrected it without Stokes - go ahead but some of us aren't as sure as you. Maybe we win - but the point was Stokes was a HUGE impact. She DID change the momentum and flow of the game.

And again you completely disregard momentum. Again what happened in Stanford? Did Stewart get worn down? So you and most of us have seen basketball for 20-40 years you think it's out of the question that when a team is getting bulldozed on the glass that they won't wear down? UCONN is incapable of getting worn down even though we saw it happen earlier in the season?

 

[HoopsFan21]

The post has also been mentioned to also reflect the game may have been close if not for Kiah. IMO the point that nan had made overall was that Kiah had a huge impact in that game. Do you agree that Kiah had a HUGE impact on the game? if not - so who do you think had an impact ont he game? Only players that scored a lot of points? Defense and rebounding can't turn around a game which could be close and turning it into a blowout?

And imo your point about UCONN getting off to other rocky starts but winning imo is irrelevant. UONN kept Stanford in the game and how did that go? We had a lead just like Texas- so how did that go? As for your point about "being worried" -- really- so all the losses in UCONN History other than vs top 5 teams you were worried? You can predict all the prior UCONN defeats vs non-top 5 teams and all the close calls? If you can't, then why do you bring up the beginning of the Texas game in which you expected UCONN to win as relevant?

And you want to ignore UCONN getting annihilated on the glass and thinking magically they would have corrected it without Stokes - go ahead but some of us aren't as sure as you. Maybe we win - but the point was Stokes was a HUGE impact. She DID change the momentum and flow of the game.

And again you completely disregard momentum. Again what happened in Stanford? Did Stewart get worn down? So you and most of us have seen basketball for 20-40 years you think it's out of the question that when a team is getting bulldozed on the glass that they won't wear down? UCONN is incapable of getting worn down even though we saw it happen earlier in the season?

Texas was not a top 5 team. They were a 5 seed in the tourney, and even that may have been generous. Unlike the Stanford game, we were essentially playing at home on a court Stewie loves with 150 of her friends and family watching, and had just spent the last 30 games working out all the kinks of a new offense by demolishing teams at a 40 point clip. Much different circumstances.

 

[hoophuskee]

Texas was not a top 5 team. They were a 5 seed in the tourney, and even that may have been generous. Unlike the Stanford game, we were essentially playing at home on a court Stewie loves with 150 of her friends and family watching, and had just spent the last 30 games working out all the kinks of a new offense by demolishing teams at a 40 point clip. Much different circumstances.

I never said Texas was a top 5 team. I said non top 5 teams. So I ask again what non top 5 teams have you predicted UCONN lost to or was a tight and it shouldn't have been in which you knew? You pegged all of them?

Secondly, it was even worse in NCAA's - you lose and your season is over. Much more pressure.

Third, you keep referring to 2nd half which is totally irrelevant. How can they be expected to play the way did in the 2nd half if the entire 1st half they were to get pummeled on the glass?

Fourth, you're right most of us if not all of expected UCONN to win. In part because we knew vs big teams we had a player like Stokes so they probably weren't going to wear us down.

 

[TFintheMix]

Even assuming everything you say is true - and, not a reflection of minutes per game, etc. - that doesn't substantiate the contention that "she was never given a chance..". That sort of statement puts all the onus on somebody, everybody, else but Kiah...

I really appreciate your response and you make great points. I am glad that your brought up how much a change of environment can make such a huge difference. At UConn, Kiah often didn't look confident on the offensive end of the floor. With the Liberty, her body language and how she is used is almost shocking after being just a few months removed from college. And I am not taking away anything from Geno as a coach. Some people may need more nurturing and encouragement. At least publicly, you get the sense that Lambeer is a big fan and is unequivocal about Kiah being more assertive offensively.