Kudos for Bobby

[Waquoit]

My boy Maddon in six years with Tampa has won a pennant, 2 division titles, 1 wild card, two AL manger of the year awards, and one Chuck Tanner MLB manager of the year award. As a bench coach he won a ring with the 2002 Angels. In 6 years he has dwarfed Bobby V's 15 year career.

So he's never won the big one either.

 

[Deepster]

I would take 7 other manangers in the AL, 8 if you count Francona who I would rather have running my team then Bobby V.

At least.

 

[The Viking]

You have to go 5,000 miles away to find to find a team he won it all with. The 2005 Chiba Lotte Marines led by Benny Agbyani and Matt Franco. Come on man.

I never brought up how he is as an in game manager and I can imply he was never good enought to beat the braves because he never did.

I would take 7 other manangers in the AL, 8 if you count Francona who I would rather have running my team then Bobby V.

Go ahead and list them. We'll see how they do and how Bobby does this year.

 

[The Viking]

At least.

go for it

 

[The Viking]

Yes and these guys have been playing baseball for years.....if you can't throw you won't suddenly find out how - if you can't run the bases, you won't be able to make the right decisions when the games begin....I get it and that's great he's coaching.....Torre was a great fundamentals teacher and Bernie Williams and Jorge Posada never could run the bases......you either have it or you don't at this point of your career - baseball intellect!!

I hope Bobby does well.........

Well if you can't throw "hard" at this point you won't. But it's foolish to say you won't hit the cutoff man if you're forced to work on it. And it's foolish to suggest that you won't get better at running the bases if you work on it.
I'm sure once these guys hit the pros and are good, they fall into lazy habits because they're good enough hitters, that that's what they fall back on. Which is why you have to re-train their baseball brain.
Carl Crawford said that he liked this year's spring training compared to last year because the players were actually working on things non-stop compared to last year where they hardly did anything. Explain to me how that can't help a team once the season starts? It certainly can't hurt.

 

[Deepster]

go for it

Well, I realize that if I list them out, you'll probably try to discredit them one by one so I'll preface you doing that by saying, this list is based on having Valentine coach my Mets and having lived through a Bobby V Era. If given the choice of getting Bobby V back....or my choice of any AL manager over him? I'd take:

1) I'd take Francona, even though he's one year removed. In a second.
2) Jim Leyland
3) Mike Sciocia
4) Joe Maddon
5) Ron Gardenhire
6) Buck Showalter
7) Joe Girardi
----
8) Probably take Ron Washington. Not really 100% sure of that one.

 

[Deepster]

Just felt like bumping this one up to the top again. Wondered if the Bobby V Bandwagon had gotten any lighter over the last 3-4 weeks.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Just felt like bumping this one up to the top again. Wondered if the Bobby V Bandwagon had gotten any lighter over the last 3-4 weeks.

Yeah the booing showed exactly how well Sox fans understand the game. It's Bobby's fault that the Sox have nobody in the bullpen and nothing at shortstop.

 

[Waquoit]

Just felt like bumping this one up to the top again. Wondered if the Bobby V Bandwagon had gotten any lighter over the last 3-4 weeks.

Wow, it's been awhile since I've heard a Met fan gloat.

 

[Waquoit]

Just felt like bumping this one up to the top again. Wondered if the Bobby V Bandwagon had gotten any lighter over the last 3-4 weeks.

What we liked about Bobby V., his ability to bring young players along while putting other non-stars in a position where they can contribute seems to be keeping the Sox from totally falling out of contention.

 

[Dove]

I still laugh out loud thinking about his fight with the ump whose gum fell out hitting Bobby V right in the lips. Bobby V stopped arguing and walked away pointing at the ump and just staring.

Among the most classic manager v. ump spats I've ever seen.

 

[Deepster]

And.....one more bump of this one to revisit some of the April/May comments.

And, I would take every one of the managers I listed over Bobby V, for certain.

 

[doggydaddy]

Go ahead and list them. We'll see how they do and how Bobby does this year.

Well, he listed:

Jim Leyland
Mike Sciocia
Joe Maddon
Ron Gardenhire
Buck Showalter
Joe Girardi
Ron Washington

Congrats, Bobby V had a better record than Gardenhire.

 

[Danzz]

Bobby is irrelevant to the Sox problems. He didn't make things better or worse. To say Lester and Beckett underperformed would be kind. They sucked and put a lot of innings on the bullpen along with Dubront who rarely makes it past 5 or 6 innings. Dice K looks like a batting practice pitcher when he can actually throw a strike.
I'd say injuries were a big issue but for most of the season but the replacements played very well. The bullpen was also very good until they got burned out.
Bobby is as good of a game manager as anyone on the list. You can't win without starting pitching and that is the reason the Sox are finishing in the cellar. I wouldn't bring him back because I think he is a little nuts but you can't even give him a small percentage of the blame for this abysmal season. Nobody on the posted list would have won with this team.

 

[60'sfan]

Bobby is irrelevant to the Sox problems. He didn't make things better or worse. To say Lester and Beckett underperformed would be kind. They sucked and put a lot of innings on the bullpen along with Dubront who rarely makes it past 5 or 6 innings. Dice K looks like a batting practice pitcher when he can actually throw a strike.
I'd say injuries were a big issue but for most of the season but the replacements played very well. The bullpen was also very good until they got burned out.
Bobby is as good of a game manager as anyone on the list. You can't win without starting pitching and that is the reason the Sox are finishing in the cellar. I wouldn't bring him back because I think he is a little nuts but you can't even give him a small percentage of the blame for this abysmal season. Nobody on the posted list would have won with this team.

I agree with you. Since I started this thread perhaps I should comment now that the season is essentially over. My original comment had to do with some of the things Bobby was trying to do in spring training. I still think that they were the right things to do and were sorely needed on a team which had grown soft. However, I still think the biggest culprit was the front office. There were some obvious holes in the roster during the winter and they did next to nothing to fill them. The moves that Ben made, almost without exception, turned out bad. In his one big move, he traded away a ton of talent and dumped a lot of salary. Whether he strengthened a weak minor league system remains to be seen. I agree that Bobby did not help the situation and he should go but I think he should follow Ben out the door.

 

[Palatine]

I agree with you. Since I started this thread perhaps I should comment now that the season is essentially over. My original comment had to do with some of the things Bobby was trying to do in spring training. I still think that they were the right things to do and were sorely needed on a team which had grown soft. However, I still think the biggest culprit was the front office. There were some obvious holes in the roster during the winter and they did next to nothing to fill them. The moves that Ben made, almost without exception, turned out bad. In his one big move, he traded away a ton of talent and dumped a lot of salary. Whether he strengthened a weak minor league system remains to be seen. I agree that Bobby did not help the situation and he should go but I think he should follow Ben out the door.

It's easy to trade your best players. Ben hasn't made a good move yet.

 

[Waquoit]

And.....one more bump of this one to revisit some of the April/May comments.

And, I would take every one of the managers I listed over Bobby V, for certain.

Bobby V. gave you the best Mets season you've had in a quarter-century? Why the hate?

 

[Dogdeacon]

It's easy to trade your best players. Ben hasn't made a good move yet.

It wasn't exactly easy to dump those contracts and someone should be applauded for timing it perfectly. Sox season was over, Dodgers still had a chance and wanted to make a big splash as new owners. Then you also had perfect execution in getting the big names past the waiver wire. They applauded themselves and everyone was in fact pleased, but now the reality is sinking in that the guys that made those mistakes in the first place are still in charge.

Three biggest mistakes last offseason and who was primarily responsible:
1. Valentine (Lucchino)
2. Daniel Bard (Cherington?)
3. Papelbon (Everyone)

Regardless of the injuries and starting pitcher crap it is absolutely unquestionable that Bobby V alienating his coaches, players and himself. Today is his last day.

Bard thing was unquestionably a debacle perhaps even worse than Joba Chamberlain Yankee screwup which magnifies the mistake since we can't needle Yankee fans about that anymore.

The decision not to give Papelbon big $ essentially started all of the other snowballs and was also partially due to over-commitments to Lackey, Gonzalez, Crawford etc.. but bottom line is they'd have been way better off overpaying a guy WHO ACTUALLY PERFORMED WELL IN BOSTON! I don't understand why everyone signed off on just letting him go whereas they are allowed to overpay everyone else. The Papelbon contract may turn sour in its late years, but no question Sox would have been better and maybe had room for different moves if they'd kept a strength.

Truth is we don't know if Cherington is a good GM or not and until Larry Lucchino leaves. Larry is running things and appears to have lost his fastball, changeup and curve. He's essentially Josh Becketting the President of Red Sox position.

 

[The Viking]

The moves that Ben made, almost without exception, turned out bad. In his one big move, he traded away a ton of talent and dumped a lot of salary. Whether he strengthened a weak minor league system remains to be seen.

Just an FYI, but the Sox minor league system will likely be ranked in the top 10 by most minor league publications when they do their year-end final evals.

 

[The Viking]

Well, he listed:

Jim Leyland
Mike Sciocia
Joe Maddon
Ron Gardenhire
Buck Showalter
Joe Girardi
Ron Washington

Congrats, Bobby V had a better record than Gardenhire.

I'll admit I didn't realize how bad the clubhouse would get even with Bobby V in there, for that he has to go just so everyone can start fresh and get rid of so much negativity.
He does not have to go for his tactical decisions however.
Keep in mind a few things..
1) He didn't want Bard to start, Bard wanted to start and the front office went along with it. Bobby looked good here.
2) He wanted Ciriaco to start the year at SS rather than Aviles. Bobby looked pretty good here, not that Ciriaco is a huge advantage over aviles, but he is a slight advantage probably.
3) He had no problems taking Youkilis's time and giving it to Middlebrooks. When Youk came back from injuries Bobby got his wish and got to keep Middlebrooks who had a very nice year. Bobby looked pretty good here even though Youk went on to be prettygood with Chicago.

So yes Bobby needs to go, but let's not pretend those other managers would have done wonders with this team this year. At least Bobby helped us get a top 6 or 7 pick in the draft and a chance to sign free agents without losing draft picks!

 

[Dogdeacon]

I'll admit I didn't realize how bad the clubhouse would get even with Bobby V in there, for that he has to go just so everyone can start fresh and get rid of so much negativity.
He does not have to go for his tactical decisions however.
Keep in mind a few things..
1) He didn't want Bard to start, Bard wanted to start and the front office went along with it. Bobby looked good here.
2) He wanted Ciriaco to start the year at SS rather than Aviles. Bobby looked pretty good here, not that Ciriaco is a huge advantage over aviles, but he is a slight advantage probably.
3) He had no problems taking Youkilis's time and giving it to Middlebrooks. When Youk came back from injuries Bobby got his wish and got to keep Middlebrooks who had a very nice year. Bobby looked pretty good here even though Youk went on to be prettygood with Chicago.

So yes Bobby needs to go, but let's not pretend those other managers would have done wonders with this team this year. At least Bobby helped us get a top 6 or 7 pick in the draft and a chance to sign free agents without losing draft picks!

I think those are all correct, only quibble is Bobby V sabotaged Youklis before the season even started and the result was the Sox got .25 on the dollar when they were forced to trade him. I couldn't really comment on his game managing because I hardly watched any games. Public relations/interactions wise he was an unmitigated disaster. Good news if you are the front office is their plan kinda worked in that this year was likely to be terrible and by hiring Bobby they selected the one guy who maybe could make lemonades outta lemons or otherwise would be their fall guy.

What has to happen now is after he's fired Bobby tells the candid truth about getting hired because LL wanted him and other various front office missteps. That could be the one effective thing he could accomplish for Red Sox fans via his otherwise failed tenure.

 

[The Viking]

True, the Youkilis thing he put his foot way up his mouth. But Youkilis really wasn't playing well when they finally pulled the trigger which is a bigger reason than any that they got .25 on the dollar. that and the fact they wanted to play Middlebrooks fulltime and keep Adrian out of RF. He must have played 20 games out there.

When 30 GM's know he's on the block and the best you can do is Zach Stewart, that tells you what you need to know about Youk's current production.

 

[doggydaddy]

So yes Bobby needs to go, but let's not pretend those other managers would have done wonders with this team this year.

You are right. We don't know how these managers would have done with this team. But that is not what you said.

Go ahead and list them. We'll see how they do and how Bobby does this year.

They all did better but one.

 

[The Viking]

You are right. We don't know how these managers would have done with this team. But that is not what you said.



They all did better but one.

No doubt I was wrong. Thought Bobby would finish with a lot more wins than he did. Misjudged that.

Now if you're going to pretend the win total is more Bobby's fault than the fact the team had serious underperformances issues from its main players as well as serious number of injuries, well....

 

[doggydaddy]

No doubt I was wrong. Thought Bobby would finish with a lot more wins than he did. Misjudged that.

Now if you're going to pretend the win total is more Bobby's fault than the fact the team had serious underperformances issues from its main players as well as serious number of injuries, well....

Where did I say that??? There is plenty of blame to be shared for how sucky this team was.

Underperformance issues? Arod ring a bell? Martin for most of the year? Nova?

Injuries? Gardner and Rivera lost before the season started. Pettitte missed a huge chunk of the season. Arod, as sucky as he has been, was hurt for weeks. As was Texeira. Pineda was expected to be in the rotation. Sabathia had a turn on the DL.

Now, not saying that the Sox didn't have more underacheivers and more injuries than the Yanks. But the Yanks overcame theirs, not just to win 90+ games, but to possibly win the AL east and have the best record in the A.L.

 

[Deepster]

Bobby V. gave you the best Mets season you've had in a quarter-century? Why the hate?

The guy was a smarmy jerk and an overrated manager. All the Boston fanboys bought into his wink and a smile in the early spring and can't wait for him to be on the next Fung Wah out of town the second the 27th out gets rung up tonight.

 

[Danzz]

I think those are all correct, only quibble is Bobby V sabotaged Youklis before the season even started and the result was the Sox got .25 on the dollar when they were forced to trade him. I couldn't really comment on his game managing because I hardly watched any games. Public relations/interactions wise he was an unmitigated disaster. Good news if you are the front office is their plan kinda worked in that this year was likely to be terrible and by hiring Bobby they selected the one guy who maybe could make lemonades outta lemons or otherwise would be their fall guy.

What has to happen now is after he's fired Bobby tells the candid truth about getting hired because LL wanted him and other various front office missteps. That could be the one effective thing he could accomplish for Red Sox fans via his otherwise failed tenure.

What has to happen when Bobby is fired (and he will be) is to let the new manager pick his own staff. If you don't like who the new manger would bring aboard then hire someone else. If Cherington is going to be the GM the choice of a new manager should be mostly his. If the Sox ownership doesn't trust Cherington enough to do it then fire him. It seems to me that the Sox owners tie the hands of their managers.
I'm not sure if Beckett and Lester had 20 more wins that Bobby would be back. IMO he is an outstanding game manager but the guy is just unlikeable. Nothing breeds contempt like losing.

 

[The Viking]

Where did I say that??? There is plenty of blame to be shared for how sucky this team was.

Underperformance issues? Arod ring a bell? Martin for most of the year? Nova?

Injuries? Gardner and Rivera lost before the season started. Pettitte missed a huge chunk of the season. Arod, as sucky as he has been, was hurt for weeks. As was Texeira. Pineda was expected to be in the rotation. Sabathia had a turn on the DL.

Now, not saying that the Sox didn't have more underacheivers and more injuries than the Yanks. But the Yanks overcame theirs, not just to win 90+ games, but to possibly win the AL east and have the best record in the A.L.

The Yankees didn't have their top 3 starters suck and didn't have their best player from last year miss half the year only to return and suck (Ellsbury). The list of injured players and/or underperformers would encompass virtually the entire team. Bobby had his issues but I don't see how you can translate them into having a serious impact on their W/L record this year.

 

[The Viking]

The guy was a smarmy jerk and an overrated manager. All the Boston fanboys bought into his wink and a smile in the early spring and can't wait for him to be on the next Fung Wah out of town the second the 27th out gets rung up tonight.

Are you saying that if the Mets had just a "good" manager in 1999 and 2000 they would have won back to back world series? I would think Bobby taking those teams to the NLCS and WS were pretty good achievements.

I see how well they've done since he's been gone, so maybe you're right.

 

[doggydaddy]

The Yankees didn't have their top 3 starters suck and didn't have their best player from last year miss half the year only to return and suck (Ellsbury). The list of injured players and/or underperformers would encompass virtually the entire team. Bobby had his issues but I don't see how you can translate them into having a serious impact on their W/L record this year.

I can't believe you are defending this guy. He didn't have a serious impact on their W/L record? Wow.