Kansas, Nova, Virginia and the ESPN Hype Machine

[tzznandrew]

What are you talking about? Bill Self has been bringing in Calipari type talent for years now. How have they been overachieving?

They had the top 2 picks in the draft last year and got a gift 2 seed last year with 10 losses. They've lost 20 games in the last two years with 7 top 10 recruits.

In the recruiting world, it's been Kentucky on it's own level, and then Kansas/UNC/Duke right behind them, with Duke in the last few years coming in right behind Kentucky (at least for top level recruits, if not depth).

 

[Inyatkin]

But damn, I would think they should have more than 2 Final Fours with all those 1 and 2 seeds (8 in Self's time).

I don't want to belabor the point, but in Calhoun's first seven times as a 1 or 2 seed, he had one Final Four. No first weekend losses, granted, but you'd take those, I think, over the NIT appearance we like to sprinkle in the mix. And that's comparing him to one of the handful of best coaches ever.

 

[ctchamps]

In the recruiting world, it's been Kentucky on it's own level, and then Kansas/UNC/Duke right behind them, with Duke in the last few years coming in right behind Kentucky (at least for top level recruits, if not depth).

You are talking recently aren't you. Kentucky didn't recruit better than those three during the Tubby era.

 

[tzznandrew]

You are talking recently aren't you. Kentucky didn't recruit better than those three during the Tubby era.

I mean in the John Calipari era.

Before that, UNC, Duke, and Kansas more or less had their choice after Pitino left UK.

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't want to belabor the point, but in Calhoun's first seven times as a 1 or 2 seed, he had one Final Four. No first weekend losses, granted, but you'd take those, I think, over the NIT appearance we like to sprinkle in the mix. And that's comparing him to one of the handful of best coaches ever.

True, but Calhoun never recruited like Self did. And Calhoun had to build UConn, whereas Self walked into a Kansas team that just came off a title loss.

So, while I might take the first weekend losses over an NIT, Calhoun's first 7 times as a 1 or 2 seed (1990, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2002) had fewer McDonald's All-Americans total than this Kansas team has...

 

[lange10]

Might get some hate for this but outside of UConn there's no coach I have more respect for than Izzo. Not a lot of talent this year and has a great shot at a FF. Sure it's all about matchups and they played an injury plagued Virginia team but if you told me this Michigan St. team would have a chance at the final four coming into the season I'd laugh at you considering what they lose.

As for Self, I've never understood those who think he pads the OOC schedule for early season wins and a padded record.
Recent OOC SOS for Kansas according to teamrankings:
2015 - 1
2014 - 2
2013 - 5
2012 - 1
2011 - 17

That coupled with 11 straight big 12 reg. season titles is enough to gain my respect. Besides the past 2 years and the early exits his tournament resume is pretty damn good. 2 sweet 16, 3 E8, 1 runner up and 1 title. A lot better than that bum Boeheim.

 

[CallMeBruce]

Kansas loaded up OOC this year. They went out of their league to play Kentucky, Tennessee, Michigan State, Florida, Georgetown, Utah, Temple, and UNLV. Yeah, those teams didn't all have good years, but those are all real programs.

 

[Fishy]

It's just been constant all year. These were their network coaching stars Self, Wright, and Bennett, the dream dies hard. So far the only one left out is Roy Williams and his program of term paperback writers.

Why would ESPN hype Villanova?

They spend more time on teams in the top 5/10.

The rest of this is in your head.

 

[auror]

They've lost 20 games in the last two years with 7 top 10 recruits.

They had the highest KenPom SOS since 2007 this year and went 27-9 and lost in the tournament to a team who is 95-14 in the last 3 years, again with a team composed of 5 freshmen and 5 sophomores. And last year they played the tournament without Embiid.

What are you talking about? Bill Self has been bringing in Calipari type talent for years now. How have they been overachieving?

It's really not as easy to win with freshmen as Calipari is making it seem. Even Kentucky missed the tournament in 2013 with the #1 recruiting class. Forget missing the tournament, Self hasn't earned less than a 4 seed in his 12 seasons at Kansas. I'm not saying the cupboard is bare, but the consistency to win 12 straight conference titles and never be less than a 4 seed requires overachieving just to overcome the variance. Hell, even Duke has a 6 seed in that span.

 

[jibsey]

Might get some hate for this but outside of UConn there's no coach I have more respect for than Izzo. Not a lot of talent this year and has a great shot at a FF. Sure it's all about matchups and they played an injury plagued Virginia team but if you told me this Michigan St. team would have a chance at the final four coming into the season I'd laugh at you considering what they lose.

As for Self, I've never understood those who think he pads the OOC schedule for early season wins and a padded record.
Recent OOC SOS for Kansas according to teamrankings:
2015 - 1
2014 - 2
2013 - 5
2012 - 1
2011 - 17

That coupled with 11 straight big 12 reg. season titles is enough to gain my respect. Besides the past 2 years and the early exits his tournament resume is pretty damn good. 2 sweet 16, 3 E8, 1 runner up and 1 title. A lot better than that bum Boeheim.

"Not a lot of talent?" MSU's players are less talented than ours?

 

[tzznandrew]

"Not a lot of talent?" MSU's players are less talented than ours?

According to 247, they had the 23rd ranked class in 2011 (this year's seniors), headed by Branden Dawson at 20. UConn was ranked 20.

2012: They had the 12th ranked class, headed by Gary Harris at 26; UConn was ranked 21.
2013: Their class wasn't ranked by 247 sports in the Top 50; UConn was 43
2014: Their class was ranked 50; UConn was 36.

The last two years look like they were rough for MSU. 2011 and 2012 they had a number of Top 100 players. But definitely not a ton.

 

[ctchamps]

According to 247, they had the 23rd ranked class in 2011 (this year's seniors), headed by Branden Dawson at 20. UConn was ranked 20.

2012: They had the 12th ranked class, headed by Gary Harris at 26; UConn was ranked 21.
2013: Their class wasn't ranked by 247 sports in the Top 50; UConn was 43
2014: Their class was ranked 50; UConn was 36.

The last two years look like they were rough for MSU. 2011 and 2012 they had a number of Top 100 players. But definitely not a ton.

You killed several birds with this. Perception is a biatch!

 

[businesslawyer]

Gotta love the Boneyard. No upsets -- it's a conspiracy and the refs are preventing the lower seeds from winning. Upsets -- it's a conspiracy because it proves the favorites were overhyped.

Or, upsets happen sometimes but not most of the time and it proves nothing but that anyone can win a basketball game.

 

[ctchamps]

Gotta love the Boneyard. No upsets -- it's a conspiracy and the refs are preventing the lower seeds from winning. Upsets -- it's a conspiracy because it proves the favorites were overhyped.

Or, upsets happen sometimes but not most of the time and it proves nothing but that anyone can win a basketball game.

you left out the P5 conspiracy!

 

[jibsey]

According to 247, they had the 23rd ranked class in 2011 (this year's seniors), headed by Branden Dawson at 20. UConn was ranked 20.

2012: They had the 12th ranked class, headed by Gary Harris at 26; UConn was ranked 21.
2013: Their class wasn't ranked by 247 sports in the Top 50; UConn was 43
2014: Their class was ranked 50; UConn was 36.

The last two years look like they were rough for MSU. 2011 and 2012 they had a number of Top 100 players. But definitely not a ton.

What I said refers to the actual talent of the team, not what the classes were ranked. If you're going by preseason team rankings we were top 20. Izzo's team this year was more talented than ours in their more difficult league and obviously in the tournament. Testament to how he evaluates, chooses, and develops players? So we were higher ranked but they turned out more talented this year.

 

[Lefty2one]

KU is just like Duke - they always get the benefit of the doubt in the polls, play in a weak conference (pre-CR Duke I'm talking about) and recruit well enough that their down years still allow them to compete for conference championships. That's a perfect formula for getting overseeded. Duke went through the same thing 2005-2013 when the ACC was horrible outside of Duke/UNC and they wound up overseeded many times and had some bad tourney losses.

The Big 12 is also just Kansas, the rest of the programs are overrated or bad. There is no secondary or tertiary program to knock them off here and there and rule the conference. No P5 conference should have one school win 11 straight titles, that's idiotic. When you keep winning a perceived "power" conference regular season championship you're going to get high seeds in the Big Dance. Some years you get upset but you'll hit your one good run every 3-5 years when you legitimately have a good team.

This year, anyone who watched KU knew they weren't going far in the tournament. A ton of analysts picked them to lose to WSU.