K State beats Iowa | Page 2 | The Boneyard

K State beats Iowa

BRS24 said:
Going 2-16 from 3 pt land was not great, and Clark took 32 of the team's 61 shots. That's not sustainable long term. The only other player in double figures was Molly Davis, off the bench.
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Credit to Davis because she made some great plays in the 4th quarter. They need that consistently from her.

Clark is going to shoot. That’s a given. Finding more realistic and good looks at the basket would be helpful. Yes she can “shoot from the logo” but not at an efficient rate.
 
southie said:
KSU and Jeff Mitte did a great job slowing down Iowa's offense; not smart to get into a track meet with the Hawkeyes. Use the shot clock wisely and make Iowa play defense as much as possible; KSU did that.
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Yes, and I expect to see teams start using that strategy against us.
 
Both Clark and Bueckers are human.

It was just (checks notes) ONE WEEK ago that Clark had 44pts, 8 rebounds, 6 assists and just one turnover against top 10 Virginia Tech.

Using one game they each play as evidence of anything, particularly this early in season, is silly.
 
JBK said:
Love Paige and watch every Uconn game - but kinda not fair to take the worst game Caitlin plays to do a comparison.
With that said - I do believe Paige is the best point guard on the planet when she is healthy.
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Yes, it is an unfair comparison. However, a more accurate contrast is looking at each in terms of efficiency. Paige is the most consistent & efficient 20-pt player in the game. Caitlin's role is different from Paige's in that she is more relied upon to score.

Last year in the tourney, Clark averaged close to 8 turnovers a game. She plays a high risk/high reward style of play. Most times it works. Last night, she was clearly off and still tried to force the game. By contrast, Paige takes what the game brings. On nights when her shot is not dropping, Paige will find other ways to contribute. Caitlin is certainly capable of the same, but it is a work in progress for her. She has to live up to the hype & I think the pressure to deliver got the best of her on a night when her motor was less than normal.

Overall, I'd take Paige because of her overall game and efficient style of play. That's no slight against Clark as I love her game and consider it must watch TV whenever Iowa is on the schedule.
 
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I always find these Paige vs Caitlin debates silly. They play on two completely different teams and have two completely different roles. Look at the supporting cast on each team, it's no surprise why a player would be less efficient with that Iowa roster than the UConn's.
 
DefenseBB said:
Everyone got to see firsthand how Paige and Caitlin compare:
Paige 10-15, 2-3 from 3 pt 2-3 FT, 24 pts, 5 red, 1 Assist, 2 TOS, 2 blocks and 6 steals while
Ms. Clark was 9-32, 2-16, 24 pts, 6 reb, 3Assists, 4TOs, 0 block and 0 steals. Both at home, one with a 32 pt win over a ranked team and the other with a loss to an unranked team…you make the conclusion….
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I'm sorry but this is just a dumb take. Go a couple games back and compare their opening games and you have:

Clark: 11-17 FG, 4-9 from 3, 2-3 FT, 28 points, 7 rebounds, 10 assists, 0 TO, 2 steals
Bueckers: 3-9 FG, 0-1, 2-2 FT, 8 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO, 1 Steal

You don't see Iowa fans cherry pick stats like this to discredit Bueckers or claim that Clark is better. If you want to rag on Clark for having a bad game, by all means feel free to, but making a grand conclusion based off of one random game by each is wildly inaccurate and misleading.
 
Surly1 said:
Yes, it is an unfair comparison. However, a more accurate contrast is looking at each in terms of efficiency. Paige is the most consistent & efficient 20-pt player in the game. Caitlin's role is different from Paige's in that she is more relied upon to score.

Last year in the tourney, Clark averaged close to 8 turnovers a game. She plays a high risk/high reward style of play. Most times it works. Last night, she was clearly off and still tried to force the game. By contrast, Paige takes what the game brings. On nights when her shot is not dropping, Paige will find other ways to contribute. Caitlin is certainly capable of the same, but it is a work in progress for her. She has to live up to the hype & I think the pressure to deliver got the best of her on a night when her motor was less than normal.

Overall, I'd take Paige because of her overall game and efficient style of play. That's no slight against Clark as I love her game and consider it must watch TV whenever Iowa is on the schedule.
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Clark averaged 5.8 TO/game in the tournament, not close to 8. She also averaged 10 assists per game, close to a 2:1 A/TO ratio while going up against some of the best competition in the country. For as much as she handles the ball and the offense is focused around her, she's going to have more turnovers. If people discredit her other stats for high usage, then you have to forgive some higher TOs due to usage as well. Last year as a team Iowa was #1 in scoring offense, #1 in FG%, #1 in assists, #6 in 3pt%, and top 5 nationally in A/TO ratio. All of these paint a clearer picture of what your PG is doing and her (and her team's) overall efficiency than isolating her 4.2 TOs/game last year.

Individual player efficiency doesn't create a clear picture either. For example, vs NC State, Paige was efficient and by all accounts had a great game, but the team was still handily beat by NC State. They probably would have benefitted from her taking more shots and playing more aggressively than she did even if it meant her efficiency dropped some.
 
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I remember Geno stating a couple of years ago that Jeff Mittie is a great coach and he was happy that they played a home and home against them. He has been a Div 1 head coach since 1999 and has only had 2 losing seasons. There are not too many head coaches out there that can say that, let alone beat it like Geno does.
 
bbsamjj said:
Both Clark and Bueckers are human.

It was just (checks notes) ONE WEEK ago that Clark had 44pts, 8 rebounds, 6 assists and just one turnover against top 10 Virginia Tech.

Using one game they each play as evidence of anything, particularly this early in season, is silly.
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Clark has more often than not had really inefficient games, the stats are just always eye-popping. She hasn’t shot better than 50% from the floor in any of her four seasons at Iowa.
 
darrell said:
Clark has more often than not had really inefficient games, the stats are just always eye-popping. She hasn’t shot better than 50% from the floor in any of her four seasons at Iowa.
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How many guards really shoot 50+% from the floor though? I know Bueckers has done it and IMO that’s one of the statistics that makes her unique.
 
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bballnut90 said:
I'm sorry but this is just a dumb take. Go a couple games back and compare their opening games and you have:

Clark: 11-17 FG, 4-9 from 3, 2-3 FT, 28 points, 7 rebounds, 10 assists, 0 TO, 2 steals
Bueckers: 3-9 FG, 0-1, 2-2 FT, 8 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO, 1 Steal

You don't see Iowa fans cherry pick stats like this to discredit Bueckers or claim that Clark is better. If you want to rag on Clark for having a bad game, by all means feel free to, but making a grand conclusion based off of one random game by each is wildly inaccurate and misleading.
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Dumb take? Seriously? I find offense to that and while you can disagree, don't be so rude. My whole point was on a "national Televised schedule" you had the two former winners of the Wooden award playing and you could see their direct impact in games before a national audience. So yes, both players will have good and bad games over the course of the season (and @Reypl21 what Caitlin did last year in the NCAA Tournament, has NO BEARING on this year's voting by the writers). With both Paige and Caitlin having good and bad games. What I do know is Paige will have a higher shooting percentage and more steals. Caitlin will average more points, have more assists and more rebounds. UConn will have a stronger schedule (including both conference and OOC games).

I have been a very vocal supporter of Ms. Clark since she came on the scene 3 years ago and felt she earned 1st All-American consideration with her performance over her whole freshman year. I noted numerous times on this forum that just because you said Caitlin was a great basketball player (and she is) does not mean Paige or any other player isn't, you can like both.

Last year however, Caitlin was NOT the best player in the country, Angel Reese was and it wasn't even close. I posted numerous stats based on game scores (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, turnovers, fouls) showing how Angel was dominating the game with Caitlin a distant second.

My point? Both Angel and Caitlin are polarizing players with their attitudes and demeanor at times. While Caitlin did not demonstrably complain about a lack of foul calls last night, she has been "over the top" about that this year alone. Plus, as you saw in the closing minute of the game last night, when she missed, she was not exactly "Charlie Hustle" on defense. Does that mean she's not a great player? Of course not, but she should be called out by the media that extolls her virtues some much just like they have to Ms. Reese. What's fair is fair.

Paige certainly has her exuberance moments and will "discuss" calls with the refs but as was seen last night when she got hit in the head by Ms. Sellers (I thought the refs call an initial foul on her due the elbow to Paige's head?), Paige was less than pleased and did pull Sellers down to the floor and was assessed a Technical. She was not shown complaining on the TV which did cue to her numerous times during the aftermath. This is in stark contrast to how Ms. Clark has handled similar calls.

If my "take" or perspective irks some of my fine fellow BYers, I am sorry but I am allowed my view which I am qualifying so please feel free to disagree in a respectful manner with evidence supporting your view.
 
Urshurak said:
The officiating in this game is the worst I have ever seen. Dear God. Someone get these refs in a room and do some training. It was soooo bad.
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Which game, KSU-Iowa or UConn-MD?
 
DefenseBB said:
Which game, KSU-Iowa or UConn-MD?
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To me the worst was UConn-MD with the KSU-Iowa a close second. The NCAA is not doing itself any favors with some of the reffing combinations. There has been a lot of flops that haven't been called like they said they were going to enforce this year, I just wonder when it is going to happen.
 
DefenseBB said:
Dumb take? Seriously? I find offense to that and while you can disagree, don't be so rude. My whole point was on a "national Televised schedule" you had the two former winners of the Wooden award playing and you could see their direct impact in games before a national audience. So yes, both players will have good and bad games over the course of the season (and @Reypl21 what Caitlin did last year in the NCAA Tournament, has NO BEARING on this year's voting by the writers). With both Paige and Caitlin having good and bad games. What I do know is Paige will have a higher shooting percentage and more steals. Caitlin will average more points, have more assists and more rebounds. UConn will have a stronger schedule (including both conference and OOC games).

I have been a very vocal supporter of Ms. Clark since she came on the scene 3 years ago and felt she earned 1st All-American consideration with her performance over her whole freshman year. I noted numerous times on this forum that just because you said Caitlin was a great basketball player (and she is) does not mean Paige or any other player isn't, you can like both.

Last year however, Caitlin was NOT the best player in the country, Angel Reese was and it wasn't even close. I posted numerous stats based on game scores (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, turnovers, fouls) showing how Angel was dominating the game with Caitlin a distant second.

My point? Both Angel and Caitlin are polarizing players with their attitudes and demeanor at times. While Caitlin did not demonstrably complain about a lack of foul calls last night, she has been "over the top" about that this year alone. Plus, as you saw in the closing minute of the game last night, when she missed, she was not exactly "Charlie Hustle" on defense. Does that mean she's not a great player? Of course not, but she should be called out by the media that extolls her virtues some much just like they have to Ms. Reese. What's fair is fair.

Paige certainly has her exuberance moments and will "discuss" calls with the refs but as was seen last night when she got hit in the head by Ms. Sellers (I thought the refs call an initial foul on her due the elbow to Paige's head?), Paige was less than pleased and did pull Sellers down to the floor and was assessed a Technical. She was not shown complaining on the TV which did cue to her numerous times during the aftermath. This is in stark contrast to how Ms. Clark has handled similar calls.

If my "take" or perspective irks some of my fine fellow BYers, I am sorry but I am allowed my view which I am qualifying so please feel free to disagree in a respectful manner with evidence supporting your view.
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Sorry if I was rude but you blatantly cherry picked stats from 1 random game to hijack a thread and turn it into yet another tiresome Clark/Bueckers debate.
 
Both Bueckers and Clark are great players.

Clark had a phenomenal season last year and was the main reason that Iowa pulled off a stunning upset, keeping overwhelming favorite SC from the title.
 
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Urshurak said:
Iowa. UConn game was bad also.
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Yes, the Iowa game featured at least one, if not 2 of the worst refs in the game. Jesse Dickerson is awful. Don't really like what I've seen of Tim Daily. Felicia Grinter is ok, or has always seemed so.
 
GCKSFN4L said:
I always find these Paige vs Caitlin debates silly. They play on two completely different teams and have two completely different roles. Look at the supporting cast on each team, it's no surprise why a player would be less efficient with that Iowa roster than the UConn's.
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I recently addressed this false narrative elsewhere, but worth doing repeatedly. One can fall short of being an elite talent, yet still be an elite shooter. A team as a whole can have the skills to be good offensively but not defensively. Clark was not playing with a bunch of poor, inefficient scrubs as teammates.

The freshman Bueckers had a higher shooting percentage than the UConn team as a whole and much higher than all the other guards. She also played with a changing line up as a first year player during a turbulent covid year, which contributes to reducing the efficiency of an offense.

In contrast, the junior Clark had a lower shooting percentage than the Iowa team as a whole. Several individuals shot a higher percentage, including other starters.. One reason is that, unlike UConn, that starting line up played together for three years, which of course will increase efficiency. Another reason is that they were good shooters, whatever effect their shortcomings may have manifested on the defensive end. Three players had a shooting percentage of 60% or above.

So if you are talking about assists, Clark had a better roster to work with for converting a pass into a score. If you are talking about the efficiency of shooting, Clark was less efficient than those inefficient scrubs she had as three year teammates. In either case, it was a better supporting offense for the junior Clark than what Bueckers had as a freshman.

Yes, they played different roles for different types of teams. If we assumed their roles to be the same, then Bueckers should have shot more to compensate for her less efficient teammates, while Clark should have shot less in comparison to her high percentage teammates. As it was, they both likely played the roles expected of them.
 
MSGRET said:
I remember Geno stating a couple of years ago that Jeff Mittie is a great coach and he was happy that they played a home and home against them. He has been a Div 1 head coach since 1999 and has only had 2 losing seasons. There are not too many head coaches out there that can say that, let alone beat it like Geno does.
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Vivian Stringer also talked about Mittie back when he was at TCU and Rutgers faced them in the NCAA tournament. She said there was something about his gameplans that made him particularly difficult to play - but I have no idea what it was, if she said (and I think she did) it was coach-talk in a Vivian run-on sentence, so I didn't understand. But definitely a compliment from her.
 
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sun said:
If Paige doesn't stop getting into wrestling matches over loose balls & such, she won't be playing the whole season to be able to be compared against Clark.
Paige needs to play smarter to avoid the risk of unnecessary injury due to initiating wreckless plays.
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She needs to keep playing just like she is playing. Players absolutely can't play like they are afraid of getting hurt and I applaud how Paige is playing. I see a lot of players who come back from injury and do nothing close to their potential because of fear. The thing that makes Paige special is her ability to score in so many ways.
 
GoChips20 said:
How many guards really shoot 50+% from the floor though? I know Bueckers has done it and IMO that’s one of the statistics that makes her unique.
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The biggest difference to me is Paige doesn't take bad shots and CC takes a bunch of them. CC is an amazing player but on a team I would take Paige and in a game of horse I would take CC. She has insane range but there is no reason to be shooting 45 foot shots in any situation short of a desperation shot at the end of the quarter.
 
Rowdy831 said:
She needs to keep playing just like she is playing. Players absolutely can't play like they are afraid of getting hurt and I applaud how Paige is playing. I see a lot of players who come back from injury and do nothing close to their potential because of fear. The thing that makes Paige special is her ability to score in so many ways.
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It's not about fear but about playing smart & according to the rules of good sportsmanship.
It hurts the team to commit an intentional foul like Paige did because it can reward the opponent with points.
It also leads to a warning & her possible ejection later in the game which could also hurt the team.
 
Correction. AFAIK an intentional foul doesn't result in a warning of ejection.
But one source says that an intentional foul is classified as a technical foul & the opponent is awarded both foul shots & possession.



www.referee.com

Understand the Differences With Atypical Fouls

Technical, intentional or flagrant fouls are atypical plays in your game. Here are a few steps you can take to administer the following action effectively.
www.referee.com www.referee.com
 
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