Juwan Durham news...

[ctchamps]

I get that. But I just want to call attention to those who defend Ollie to the grave that we have some serious problems right now because many still refuse to believe it.

Just curious. What does your source say are Rodney's and Jalen's opinions of KO? Might as well let us know about Gilbert and Larrier. Does your source have an axe to grind? Was he around JC during 2010?

 

[lange10]

Just curious. What does your source say are Rodney's and Jalen's opinions of KO? Might as well let us know about Gilbert and Larrier. Does your source have an axe to grind? Was he around JC during 2010?

No comment. No and no. If you'd like the specifics as to what I've heard pm me.

Regardless, I'm hoping that the problem was the last crop of guys were not Uconn guys and KO will adjust moving forward to get those that fit the needs of his system.

 

[Huskybass]

KO did a great job his first two years as head coach, he honestly did. But since 2014 (for whatever reason) he simply is not the same guy. I know there is a core group of guys here who will defend KO no matter what, but even those guys should consider the possibility that KO in 2017 isn't as effective as he was in 2013 and 2014.

The flip side is talent and makeup of the players, but in the end the coaching staff has to own that too to some degree.

 

[Hugo]

And that's fine. Still doesn't change the fact that we have a lot of parents interfering, a lot of kids who would have been laughed off the 2014 team. And then we hear reports that the seniors did not really see eye-to-eye with the younger guys.

Gee, I wonder why.

The whole thing we heard about Ollie in the NBA is that he set the tone for locker rooms, set the winning culture.

Being a member of a team of professionals where you are there because you can work and succeed in a team environment and being responsible for coaching and developing a group of 18 and 19 year old kids these days is hardly the same. Different role, different audience, different expectations and different times.

 

[Vancat]

Interesting thread. I've bled blue for over 30 years. I really, really hope KO rights the ship this coming year. Having said that, I just don't have a good feeling about it.

 

[upstater]

Being a member of a team of professionals where you are there because you can work and succeed in a team environment and being responsible for coaching and developing a group of 18 and 19 year old kids these days is hardly the same. Different role, different audience, different expectations and different times.

It is different. And it is the same. Ollie was brought on to bring along the 18 and 19 and 20 year olds on NBA teams. He wasn't there to work hard and lead by example. If you listen to the people that hired him and also his teammates, he was kind of a player coach who was supposed to mentor the young guys. What's different is the professional locker room. And the fact that anyone in the NBA would have more ability. But in terms of the mentality of very young men, it is very similar. They are after all, 18-22 year old boys.

 

[upstater]

KO did a great job his first two years as head coach, he honestly did. But since 2014 (for whatever reason) he simply is not the same guy. I know there is a core group of guys here who will defend KO no matter what, but even those guys should consider the possibility that KO in 2017 isn't as effective as he was in 2013 and 2014.

The flip side is talent and makeup of the players, but in the end the coaching staff has to own that too to some degree.

Yes, of course. But every coach has down years. If Villanova had given up on Jay Wright, they likely wouldn't be experiencing this revival. Also, I think last year is the disaster. While I was a tad disappointed in the prior year, you can't say a second round loss to Kansas was below the talent level of that team. They thoroughly handled Colorado in the first round, and they also won the AAC tourney. This year was different... it was a disaster.

But, even the best coaches have these rough spots.

 

[RUSS56]

KO did a great job his first two years as head coach,

Ever think he was coaching Calhoun's kids, and since that time,he is coaching his own? Sorry Ollie apologists.

 

[Stainmaster]

KO did a great job his first two years as head coach,

Ever think he was coaching Calhoun's kids, and since that time,he is coaching his own? Sorry Ollie apologists.

No, I don't think that.

As has been mentioned dozens of times here, Giffey (aside from the Kentucky game in Maui his freshman year) and Daniels showed absolutely nothing under Calhoun. We don't win a title unless they develop like they did in their two years under KO. The people who bash KO say that the credit for Daniels' improvement goes to JC for giving him a really good pep talk, not the actual members of the staff who ran practices, drills, and one-on-one sessions with him...not only does that not make any sort of sense, it reveals much of the implicit bias of the anti-KO crowd. They reach and stretch as far as they can to avoid giving him any credit for anything.

Let's also not forget that in Calhoun's last year, Shabazz was blasted here and elsewhere as the worst PG in UConn history. Funny how that's who he was under Calhoun, but under Ollie, he was able to become the leader of one of the best March runs in the history of the game.

Ollie won with Ollie's players.

 

[polycom]

No, I don't think that.

As has been mentioned dozens of times here, Giffey (aside from the Kentucky game in Maui his freshman year) and Daniels showed absolutely nothing under Calhoun. We don't win a title unless they develop like they did in their two years under KO. The people who bash KO say that the credit for Daniels' improvement goes to JC for giving him a really good pep talk, not the actual members of the staff who ran practices, drills, and one-on-one sessions with him...not only does that not make any sort of sense, it reveals much of the implicit bias of the anti-KO crowd. They reach and stretch as far as they can to avoid giving him any credit for anything.

Let's also not forget that in Calhoun's last year, Shabazz was blasted here and elsewhere as the worst PG in UConn history. Funny how that's who he was under Calhoun, but under Ollie, he was able to become the leader of one of the best March runs in the history of the game.

Ollie won with Ollie's players.

Perhaps Ollie believed in those players more than others... I really think the issue isn't so much what Ollie didn't do but what he choose to do instead...

 

[upstater]

No, I don't think that.

As has been mentioned dozens of times here, Giffey (aside from the Kentucky game in Maui his freshman year) and Daniels showed absolutely nothing under Calhoun. We don't win a title unless they develop like they did in their two years under KO. The people who bash KO say that the credit for Daniels' improvement goes to JC for giving him a really good pep talk, not the actual members of the staff who ran practices, drills, and one-on-one sessions with him...not only does that not make any sort of sense, it reveals much of the implicit bias of the anti-KO crowd. They reach and stretch as far as they can to avoid giving him any credit for anything.

Let's also not forget that in Calhoun's last year, Shabazz was blasted here and elsewhere as the worst PG in UConn history. Funny how that's who he was under Calhoun, but under Ollie, he was able to become the leader of one of the best March runs in the history of the game.

Ollie won with Ollie's players.

Also throw Boatright in there.

The NC in 2014 was miraculous. If Shabazz leaves the NBA in a year, and it seems like that's where he's trending, there will not be a single NBA player on that championship team. Which shows you that they overachieved. And every single player on that court improved greatly during Ollie's first two years. Everything seemed to have gone right.

 

[intlzncster]

KO did a great job his first two years as head coach, he honestly did. But since 2014 (for whatever reason) he simply is not the same guy. I know there is a core group of guys here who will defend KO no matter what, but even those guys should consider the possibility that KO in 2017 isn't as effective as he was in 2013 and 2014.

The flip side is talent and makeup of the players, but in the end the coaching staff has to own that too to some degree.

Give him a top shelf experienced PG, with a solid suppoting cast. That's the difference. He'll have Adams this year. Let's hope there's enough supporting cast left.

 

[intlzncster]

I'm expecting Cobb to be like a bigger version of Mike Hayes.

Hayes senior year? Hope so.

 

[BUConn10]

Also to the previous point of what has changed from 2012 to 2017.

Jim Calhoun was a noticeable presence at practices and games those first two years, he was always in the building and on camera. After the title he really pulled away and let Ollie do his thing, rightfully so. Not saying it's a case of causality, but it's definitely a change.

 

[navery12]

KO did a great job his first two years as head coach,

Ever think he was coaching Calhoun's kids, and since that time,he is coaching his own? Sorry Ollie apologists.

Beyond the obvious that everyone has already pointed out, this line of thinking completely diminishes the role an assistant coach has in developing players. Whether it was during his time as an assistant or as a HC, at some point Kevin Ollie played a role in developing the players that lead us to a national championship

 

[Hugo]

It is different. And it is the same. Ollie was brought on to bring along the 18 and 19 and 20 year olds on NBA teams. He wasn't there to work hard and lead by example. If you listen to the people that hired him and also his teammates, he was kind of a player coach who was supposed to mentor the young guys. What's different is the professional locker room. And the fact that anyone in the NBA would have more ability. But in terms of the mentality of very young men, it is very similar. They are after all, 18-22 year old boys.

.

KO was a "player coach" who helped mentor young talented players and I emphasize talented. But, ultimate responsibility for development was with the coaching staff, not KO. And to be fair, KO seldom spent more than a year with the same team and as a result may not have developed and real relationship with his younger teammates. However, as head coach for a college team, he needs to develop that relationship starting with recruiting and maintain that relationship throughout that players time at UCONN. It appears to me that he has not been able to do this as successfully as we would all like.

 

[Tenspro2002]

No, I don't think that.

As has been mentioned dozens of times here, Giffey (aside from the Kentucky game in Maui his freshman year) and Daniels showed absolutely nothing under Calhoun. We don't win a title unless they develop like they did in their two years under KO. The people who bash KO say that the credit for Daniels' improvement goes to JC for giving him a really good pep talk, not the actual members of the staff who ran practices, drills, and one-on-one sessions with him...not only does that not make any sort of sense, it reveals much of the implicit bias of the anti-KO crowd. They reach and stretch as far as they can to avoid giving him any credit for anything.

Let's also not forget that in Calhoun's last year, Shabazz was blasted here and elsewhere as the worst PG in UConn history. Funny how that's who he was under Calhoun, but under Ollie, he was able to become the leader of one of the best March runs in the history of the game.

Ollie won with Ollie's players.

For a more nuanced take, you could argue that KO won with his players, but with JC's recruits.

KO hasn't demonstrated that he can cultivate a team all the way from recruiting through to on-court success.

To borrow an analogy sometimes used in the NFL, KO did a great job preparing the meal with the groceries JC left for him (including player development, preparation, and in-game coaching), but he hasn't made anything worth a damn after doing the shopping himself.

 

[pj]

KO didn't cease being the type of coach who can lead an undertalented group to a national championship. It's to be expected that a rookie coach will have a learning curve with some head coach duties, such as building the right staff of assistants that complement him, knowing the types of players he needs to recruit, and managing a roster. Some of those things were made quite a bit more difficult by the APR sanctions which made it hard to evaluate recruits and hard to maintain a balanced roster.

So, now he's had his on-the-job training, he's past the sanctions, and we can expect that he now has the assistant coaches he needs to be successful. With his next few rounds of recruits (classes of 2018, 2019, 2020) we can expect he'll build a strong roster and maybe we'll be on track for our next championship in the 2020-21 time frame.

 

[upstater]

For a more nuanced take, you could argue that KO won with his players, but with JC's recruits.

KO hasn't demonstrated that he can cultivate a team all the way from recruiting through to on-court success.

To borrow an analogy sometimes used in the NFL, KO did a great job preparing the meal with the groceries JC left for him (including player development, preparation, and in-game coaching), but he hasn't made anything worth a damn after doing the shopping himself.

Why does this even matter?

That Calhoun incoming class was roundly vilified on the Boneyard for being incredibly weak.

And, you know what? Seeing that those kids are not exactly NBA material, the people disappointed in the strength of the class are probably not far off. But the kids meshed well.

The point is, when we talk about these being Calhoun's recruits (which is actually only true of a few of them, not at all, some were indeed Ollie's recruits), it's not like they were more highly ranked or sought after than Ollie's recruits. Some of these kids, Giffey and Olander, to name just 2, were late add-ons, afterthoughts. Not really the product of any magic in Calhoun's recruiting. Think about Nolan. Not really a recruiting coup there either.

These were average recruits, the likes of which Ollie could snag at any time, who all bought in, they all developed, they all actually stuck it out through both tournament bans, and a tough season in which they didn't all get along (Shabazz was not well liked in 2012).

They were tough. They stuck it out. Grew to like or at least tolerate one another. And during that crucial 2013 banned year when they learned to play together, they developed this absolute refusal to lay down when they fell behind, and they developed a culture of winning. Rodney got to see it from the bench that year, and he understood what they had. Facey and Brimah actually experienced it on the court, and Brimah even contributed to the national title.

 

[JMick]

Why does this even matter?

That Calhoun incoming class was roundly vilified on the Boneyard for being incredibly weak.

And, you know what? Seeing that those kids are not exactly NBA material, the people disappointed in the strength of the class is probably not far off. But they meshed well.

The point is, when we talk about these being Calhoun's recruits (which is actually only true of a few of them, not at all, some were indeed Ollie's recruits), it's not like they were more highly ranked or sought after than Ollie's recruits. Some of these kids, Giffey and Olander, to name just 2, were late add-ons, afterthoughts. not really the product of any magic in Calhoun's recruiting. Think about Nolan. Not really a recruiting coup there either.

These were average recruits, the likes of which Ollie could snag at any time, who all bought in, they all developed, they all actually stuck it out through both tournament bans, and a tough season in which they didn't all get along (Shabazz was not well liked in 2012).

They were tough. They stuck it out. Grew to like or at least tolerate one another. And during that crucial 2013 banned year when they learned to play together, they developed this absolute refusal to lay down when they fell behind, and they developed a culture of winning. Rodney got to see it from the bench that year, and he understood what they had. Facey and Brimah actually experienced it on the court, and Brimah even contributed to the national title.

I will take a class of recruits ranked 75-150 every year if they're the right kinds of players. I think Ollie is realizing that now and I think Killings and Chillious are only going to help. We need players who want to be here and are tough as nails, whether they're ranked #10 or #100.

 

[upstater]

I will take a class of recruits ranked 75-150 every year if they're the right kinds of players. I think Ollie is realizing that now and I think Killings and Chillious are only going to help. We need players who want to be here and are tough as nails, whether they're ranked #10 or #100.

You need talent too.

You have to have both.

The others have a good point when it comes to Deandre Daniels, or heck even Jeremy Lamb. Ollie didn't recruit Daniels, and Daniels did develop under Ollie, BUT he had a certain talent level that you might not find in players ranked 100+. He suddenly became a killer, very hard to defend. Yet as late as February, posters here were trashing him and calling for him to be benched.

Daniels is the one who fits the bill most of "Calhoun top recruit, developed under Ollie." It has not been shown that, outside of Daniel Hamilton, Ollie can recruit players like Daniels/Hamilton consistently. We shall see. It should be noted though that JC snagged Daniels from out of the blue. I remember the Kansas fans were shocked.

I feel a lot more confident that Ollie can recruit the Shabazz/Jalen Adams/Alterique types consistently.

Personally, I've given up on the idea of highly ranked centers.

Just recruit guys who have the strength to hold their own underneath, and who are in the right position on D. Hopefully with more consistency than say Phillip Nolan.

I am very glad Terry Larrier came here as a transfer since he was my #1 target the year he came out, but he still counts as a recruiting loss.

 

[JMick]

You need talent too.

You have to have both.

The others have a good point when it comes to Deandre Daniels, or heck even Jeremy Lamb. Ollie didn't recruit Daniels, and Daniels did develop under Ollie, BUT he had a certain talent level that you might not find in players ranked 100+. He suddenly became a killer, very hard to defend. Yet as late as February, posters here were trashing him and calling for him to be benched.

Daniels is the one who fits the bill most of "Calhoun top recruit, developed under Ollie." It has not been shown that, outside of Daniel Hamilton, Ollie can recruit players like Daniels/Hamilton consistently. We shall see. It should be noted though that JC snagged Daniels from out of the blue. I remember the Kansas fans were shocked.

I feel a lot more confident that Ollie can recruit the Shabazz/Jalen Adams/Alterique types consistently.

Personally, I've given up on the idea of highly ranked centers.

Just recruit guys who have the strength to hold their own underneath, and who are in the right position on D. Hopefully with more consistency than say Phillip Nolan.

I am very glad Terry Larrier came here as a transfer since he was my #1 target the year he came out, but he still counts as a recruiting loss.

We have to remember that there is a lot of talent outside the top 100, too. Other teams land these under the radar types that blow up after their first or second year. Identifying talent and character needs to improve.

 

[ctchamps]

I will take a class of recruits ranked 75-150 every year if they're the right kinds of players. I think Ollie is realizing that now and I think Killings and Chillious are only going to help. We need players who want to be here and are tough as nails, whether they're ranked #10 or #100.

There are two likely reasons for player defections. Either the coach can't relate to players. Or the coach made a mistake in the selection of players that fit his coaching style.

Talent is important. But so is personality type. JC was an authoritarian coach who insisted on players agreeing with his demands. Outside of Khalid he didn't attract players who wanted more freedom. Khalid was remarkably able to let JC's rantings not change him. Imo, his attitude was the last necessary ingredient to get the team and coaches to be and play more relaxed. He had the moxie and the talent to pull it off. I believe people don't give credit enough to how much Khalid's personality impacted JC and the future of the program. Tangent over.

If KO has an attitude problem, that's difficult to correct. If the players recruited have a problem with KO's demands, the coaching staff failed to evaluate those recruits properly and will have to correct this. It's an easier problem to fix. Getting the perspective of coaches outside the program in Chillious and Killings are more likely to help KO resolve this.

 

[upstater]

There are two likely reasons for player defections. Either the coach can't relate to players. Or the coach made a mistake in the selection of players that fit his coaching style.

Talent is important. But so is personality type. JC was an authoritarian coach who insisted on players agreeing with his demands. Outside of Khalid he didn't attract players who wanted more freedom. Khalid was remarkably able to let JC's rantings not change him. Imo, his attitude was the last necessary ingredient to get the team and coaches to be and play more relaxed. He had the moxie and the talent to pull it off. I believe people don't give credit enough to how much Khalid's personality impacted JC and the future of the program. Tangent over.

If KO has an attitude problem, that's difficult to correct. If the players recruited have a problem with KO's demands, the coaching staff failed to evaluate those recruits properly and will have to correct this. It's an easier problem to fix. Getting the perspective of coaches outside the program in Chillious and Killings are more likely to help KO resolve this.

Sometimes it only takes one bad egg to stir things up.

I can imagine how it goes in sports, but when teaching, I identify a problem early on, and oh boy, it's infectious sometimes.

Vets of teaching know this dynamic.

 

[ctchamps]

Sometimes it only takes one bad egg to stir things up.

I can imagine how it goes in sports, but when teaching, I identify a problem early on, and oh boy, it's infectious sometimes.

Vets of teaching know this dynamic.

All walks of life suffer from this. One person can disrupt many.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

"Hmmm, this thread is five pages in, I wonder if it's still about Durham" is the dumbest thought I've had today.

 

[intlzncster]

For a more nuanced take, you could argue that KO won with his players, but with JC's recruits.

KO hasn't demonstrated that he can cultivate a team all the way from recruiting through to on-court success

But he recruited a lot of those guys as JCs assistant.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Why does this even matter?

That Calhoun incoming class was roundly vilified on the Boneyard for being incredibly weak.

And, you know what? Seeing that those kids are not exactly NBA material, the people disappointed in the strength of the class are probably not far off. But the kids meshed well.

The point is, when we talk about these being Calhoun's recruits (which is actually only true of a few of them, not at all, some were indeed Ollie's recruits), it's not like they were more highly ranked or sought after than Ollie's recruits. Some of these kids, Giffey and Olander, to name just 2, were late add-ons, afterthoughts. Not really the product of any magic in Calhoun's recruiting. Think about Nolan. Not really a recruiting coup there either.

These were average recruits, the likes of which Ollie could snag at any time, who all bought in, they all developed, they all actually stuck it out through both tournament bans, and a tough season in which they didn't all get along (Shabazz was not well liked in 2012).

They were tough. They stuck it out. Grew to like or at least tolerate one another. And during that crucial 2013 banned year when they learned to play together, they developed this absolute refusal to lay down when they fell behind, and they developed a culture of winning. Rodney got to see it from the bench that year, and he understood what they had. Facey and Brimah actually experienced it on the court, and Brimah even contributed to the national title.

You almost make my point for me. It's not just about rankings.

JC recruited the right guys -- tough, good teammates, willing to work and buy in. KO brought out a lot of these traits in those guys, developed them and coached them to a championship.

But KO hasn't shown, with the exception of Adams and Vital, so far, that he can regularly land the right players, in terms of toughness, BBIQ, and skill. Some of those qualities are captured in rankings, some aren't. Yes, he was hamstrung by sanctions in his first few years, but that excuse doesn't fly anymore.

 

[TopDogs]

 

[businesslawyer]

All walks of life suffer from this. One person can disrupt many.

Was it Casey Stengel (it was some successful baseball manager) who said that the entire key to managing a baseball team was to keep the 3 players who just didn't like you away from the 4 players who weren't sure either way?