Joanne P. McCallie: I Am Not Buying | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Joanne P. McCallie: I Am Not Buying

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JPM has her own issues and unfortunately, Duke and its players have paid the price for her poor choice of words and Coaching.....I wish her and her team well again this season.
 
CocoHusky said:
Willtalk, not sure what point you are trying to make reference these last two post with questions directed at Cam. If you can post you have access to a search tool and can easily look up the answer to your own questions. I will be more willing to support your point if you did your own research and actually made a point-or nah.
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With patience my reasons will soon become clear.
 
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BlueDevils said:
NOOOOOOOOO. But I guess we'll speak about it. After losing to Unc JPM refused to shake Gray or DD hands. Very disrespectful.
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You may not have either if you new the reason you are condemning her.
 
Willtalk is going to argue that the graduation of Bales and Harding from a team that went 32-2 and made the Sweet 16 (but was upset) meant that McCallie was left with an empty cupboard, despite having a roster of eight McDonald's All-Americans.

Thing is, Beard, Tillis, Krapohl (three starters) graduated, Harding was suspended, and Brittney Hunter transferred after the 2003-2004 team made the Elite Eight. So the next year, Duke went 30-5 and made the Elite Eight.

After 2005-2006 when Duke made the Final Four and lost two starters and a third key player (Monique Currie, Mistie Bass, and Jessica Foley), Duke went undefeated in the regular season.

Under Goestenkors, Duke reloaded. Four Final Four appearances (and seven Elite Eight appearances) in ten years. Seven straight years of 30 or more wins. Great records against top opponents.

Willtalk, did the graduation of Harding and Bales set McCallie so far back (she went 25-10 in her first year, with eight McDonald's All-Americans on the roster) such that Duke has not been able to make a Final Four since?
Was that the catalyst for McCallie's 0-18 record against teams ranked #1 or #2? What about her 7-26 (21.21 percent) record against Top 5 opponents? Or her 19-32 (37.25 percent) record against Top 10 teams...despite having top ranked recruiting classes at least four times in her eight seasons?

Frankly, if that is your major point, Willtalk (and you might sound slightly more credible if you knew how to spell the first name of McCallie's predecessor), it goes to highlight the depths P supports will undergo to find something positive.

Listen, her overall record is great. She wins 80 percent of her games. But if you measure success by where the program was in April 2007 to where it is now and what she was hired to do (win a national championship), then she has been a disappointment as the head coach.
 
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CamrnCrz1974 said:
Willtalk is going to argue that the graduation of Bales and Harding from a team that went 32-2 and made the Sweet 16 (but was upset) meant that McCallie was left with an empty cupboard, despite having a roster of eight McDonald's All-Americans.

Thing is, Beard, Tillis, Krapohl (three starters) graduated, Harding was suspended, and Brittney Hunter transferred after the 2003-2004 team made the Elite Eight. So the next year, Duke went 30-5 and made the Elite Eight.

After 2005-2006 when Duke made the Final Four and lost two starters and a third key player (Monique Currie, Mistie Bass, and Jessica Foley), Duke went undefeated in the regular season.

Under Goestenkors, Duke reloaded. Four Final Four appearances (and seven Elite Eight appearances) in ten years. Seven straight years of 30 or more wins. Great records against top opponents.

Willtalk, did the graduation of Harding and Bales set McCallie so far back (she went 25-10 in her first year, with eight McDonald's All-Americans on the roster) such that Duke has not been able to make a Final Four since?
Was that the catalyst for McCallie's 0-18 record against teams ranked #1 or #2? What about her 7-26 (21.21 percent) record against Top 5 opponents? Or her 19-32 (37.25 percent) record against Top 10 teams...despite having top ranked recruiting classes at least four times in her eight seasons?

Frankly, if that is your major point, Willtalk (and you might sound slightly more credible if you knew how to spell the first name of McCallie's predecessor), it goes to highlight the depths P supports will undergo to find something positive.

Listen, her overall record is great. She wins 80 percent of her games. But if you measure success by where the program was in April 2007 to where it is now and what she was hired to do (win a national championship), then she has been a disappointment as the head coach.
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Nice.
 
CamrnCrz1974 said:
Willtalk is going to argue that the graduation of Bales and Harding from a team that went 32-2 and made the Sweet 16 (but was upset) meant that McCallie was left with an empty cupboard, despite having a roster of eight McDonald's All-Americans.--------------------------.
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So that's where you think I was going. Answer me one more question if you will. While never being a real supporter of coach P, you use to argue for objectivity in respect to this subject on the Duke board. In your effort to look at both sides of the argument and as a voice of reason you made what I thought were some very good points on that site. In fact we were usually on the same page. While I always saw you as a voice of reason rather than a coach P supporter, to some your posts might have given the appearance as a supporter. There appeared to come a time when your posts and perspectives did a 180 and your posts became entirely critical. My question ( I have always wanted to ask you this) is what exactly was the cause of your sudden reversal?
 
While not presuming to know CamrnCrz's mind, there is a big difference between providing support and perspective based on a 'its been too short a period of time' to jump ship, to a 'this has gone on too long' and I am drowning here!
New coaches inherit a team with players that have from 1 to 3 years experience playing for a different coach - some of those players likely would not have been recruited by the new coach and some may resent or fight the changes a new coach will bring. At the end of 4 years, (after the freshman recruited by the previous coach graduate) the team can be presumed to be hand picked by the not so new coach. Some success is expected before that date, much greater success after that date. Seems reasonable that a thinking person would give a new coach some support early, but would tend to be much harsher after 4 years in their evaluation.

And while the 'numbers not names' aspect of JPM's press conferences has been around since the beginning, the 'throw them under/off the bus' meanness seems to have come more to the front, and the 'lessons learned' has become a broken record, since the coaching side seems to be doing the exact same thing year after year. As the saying goes - insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
 
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UcMiami said:
While not presuming to know CamrnCrz's mind, there is a big difference between providing support and perspective based on a 'its been too short a period of time' to jump ship, to a 'this has gone on too long' and I am drowning here!
New coaches inherit a team with players that have from 1 to 3 years experience playing for a different coach - some of those players likely would not have been recruited by the new coach and some may resent or fight the changes a new coach will bring. At the end of 4 years, (after the freshman recruited by the previous coach graduate) the team can be presumed to be hand picked by the not so new coach. Some success is expected before that date, much greater success after that date. Seems reasonable that a thinking person would give a new coach some support early, but would tend to be much harsher after 4 years in their evaluation..
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That's a pretty good analysis of the rational that Cam actually used in his posts on the Duke site. Although from my recollection that factor didn't seem to play that much of a role in his change of perspective. The reason I asked that question was two fold.

I one found myself in the same type of situation in respect to another coach on another college team. I tended to argue on the side of caution in coming to a predetermined conclusion before considering all the effects of probable mitigating circumstances. In that case it was a statement by the coach herself that removed all doubt in my mind because it eliminated the one possibility that was a justification for her actions. I do believe I remember the turning point for Cam. I wonder if he does? My question was to clarify if we were on the same page in that respect. I do remember a post he made in that regard. As of yet he has yet to respond to my question.

When I posted on the Duke site, my arguments were not really in defense of coach P, rather to the validity of the arguments presented by her detractors. Some of those arguments were valid, but I found that the overwhelming number were not. When you throw enough BS together with some truth a large quantity of BS usually also gets though our filters and becomes part of our template for our future evaluation of what is true. When people articulate the reasons for their perspectives, those perspectives might actually convert us to their way of thinking. The other side of the coin is that any argument presented might also be used to hold them accountable for their rational. That's why I ask questions. The purpose is to create clarity in understanding exactly the other persons point of view. I personally do not like debate. It should not be about winning an argument, rather about exchanging perspectives to get the closest perspective of what is true possible. I find that when individuals do not seek clarity it usually means they have another purpose besides truth.
 
meyers7 said:
I think we got your reasons.
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No you haven't. I have yet to articulate my rational. I am waiting for Cam to answer my last question. If he doesn't, then I will proceed with out it. I often can not respond right away so I want to give him plenty of time to respond.
 
willtalk said:
CamrnCrz: I have a question. This team that McCallie inherited- What was the record of that team in the regular season in the final year under Gale?. How far did they advance in the NCAA's in comparison to that loaded team inherited and ruined by McCallie the following season? Waiting for your answer?
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Can't you just look this up?
 
willtalk said:
No you haven't. I have yet to articulate my rational. I am waiting for Cam to answer my last question. If he doesn't, then I will proceed with out it. I often can not respond right away so I want to give him plenty of time to respond.
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ith9az.jpg
 
willtalk said:
So that's where you think I was going. Answer me one more question if you will. While never being a real supporter of coach P, you use to argue for objectivity in respect to this subject on the Duke board. In your effort to look at both sides of the argument and as a voice of reason you made what I thought were some very good points on that site. In fact we were usually on the same page. While I always saw you as a voice of reason rather than a coach P supporter, to some your posts might have given the appearance as a supporter. There appeared to come a time when your posts and perspectives did a 180 and your posts became entirely critical. My question ( I have always wanted to ask you this) is what exactly was the cause of your sudden reversal?
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I am a moderator on The Devil's Den. I am not a moderator on this board. My job is not just to promote discussion, but encourage both sides of the debate.

I am not a moderator on The Boneyard (though I have great respect for the moderators here, as they have a much more difficult job to do than I and they do it much better than I do). To be blunt, I was a bit perturbed (other issues, not related to McCallie, basketball, or posting) when I responded, so I was much less objective in terms of the tone and tenor of my post.

But, if you note, I used a lot of statistics, facts, and evidence on this site.
 
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i so look forward to when her contract is up and the threads/discussion about a terrible coach cease.
 
Gate81 said:
i so look forward to when her contract is up and the threads/discussion about a terrible coach cease.
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She'll probably have her contract extended before it's up.
 
willtalk said:
That's a pretty good analysis of the rational that Cam actually used in his posts on the Duke site. Although from my recollection that factor didn't seem to play that much of a role in his change of perspective. The reason I asked that question was two fold.

I one found myself in the same type of situation in respect to another coach on another college team. I tended to argue on the side of caution in coming to a predetermined conclusion before considering all the effects of probable mitigating circumstances. In that case it was a statement by the coach herself that removed all doubt in my mind because it eliminated the one possibility that was a justification for her actions. I do believe I remember the turning point for Cam. I wonder if he does? My question was to clarify if we were on the same page in that respect. I do remember a post he made in that regard. As of yet he has yet to respond to my question.

When I posted on the Duke site, my arguments were not really in defense of coach P, rather to the validity of the arguments presented by her detractors. Some of those arguments were valid, but I found that the overwhelming number were not. When you throw enough BS together with some truth a large quantity of BS usually also gets though our filters and becomes part of our template for our future evaluation of what is true. When people articulate the reasons for their perspectives, those perspectives might actually convert us to their way of thinking. The other side of the coin is that any argument presented might also be used to hold them accountable for their rational. That's why I ask questions. The purpose is to create clarity in understanding exactly the other persons point of view. I personally do not like debate. It should not be about winning an argument, rather about exchanging perspectives to get the closest perspective of what is true possible. I find that when individuals do not seek clarity it usually means they have another purpose besides truth.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. You absolutely nailed the last paragraph. That's the problem I have with other Duke fans.
 
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willtalk said:
No you haven't. I have yet to articulate my rational. I am waiting for Cam to answer my last question. If he doesn't, then I will proceed with out it. I often can not respond right away so I want to give him plenty of time to respond.
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My name is Matt. You've just became my favorite poster.
 
willtalk said:
When I posted on the Duke site, my arguments were not really in defense of coach P, rather to the validity of the arguments presented by her detractors. Some of those arguments were valid, but I found that the overwhelming number were not. When you throw enough BS together with some truth a large quantity of BS usually also gets though our filters and becomes part of our template for our future evaluation of what is true. When people articulate the reasons for their perspectives, those perspectives might actually convert us to their way of thinking. The other side of the coin is that any argument presented might also be used to hold them accountable for their rational. That's why I ask questions. The purpose is to create clarity in understanding exactly the other persons point of view. I personally do not like debate. It should not be about winning an argument, rather about exchanging perspectives to get the closest perspective of what is true possible. I find that when individuals do not seek clarity it usually means they have another purpose besides truth.
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BlueDevils said:
Yes. Yes. Yes. You absolutely nailed the last paragraph. That's the problem I have with other Duke fans.
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Willtalk, your posts on The Devil's Den were nothing close to how you describe them. In this thread, you have neither articulated your point of view nor have you presented your rationale or reasoning for your point of view. Rather, you make a generalization about Duke fans, without any evidence or support, characterizing it as "BS." If you read my initial posts in this thread, it certainly was not BS thrown together, as you generically reference in your post.

But putting that aside...

The numbers, statistics, and evidence that I presented in my original posts have not been addressed by you, either because you are ignoring them or you are asking follow-up questions in the furtherance of a healthy debate (I do not know, but I will give you the benefit of the and assume it is the latter). You asked a question, which I answered and followed up with questions for you.

In sum, the biggest problem for Joanne P. McCallie, in terms of assessing her performance as the head coach at Duke, is when her performance is examined in a vacuum as compared to when it is compared and contrasted to the performance of her predecessor (at least for many Duke fans). On paper, winning 80 percent of overall games and making the Elite Eight four times in eight seasons looks incredible. But if you compare her eight years to the last 8-10 years of her predecessor, it is readily apparent to many fans that Duke has taken a step backward, in terms of performance against elite competition and results in the NCAA Tournament, despite having more talent than at any point in school history (which will again be the case next year). There are also post-game and off-the-court behavior that have turned off many Duke fans.

No one is disputing your right to defend Coach P or present another side of the argument. But those who disagree with you - even those who are extremely passionate in their disagreement - do not have their arguments automatically rendered as "BS thrown together" simply because you disagree with their points or do not appreciate the manner in which they are presented.
 
CamrnCrz1974 said:
Willtalk, your posts on The Devil's Den were nothing close to how you describe them. In this thread, you have neither articulated your point of view nor have you presented your rationale or reasoning for your point of view. Rather, you make a generalization about Duke fans, without any evidence or support, characterizing it as "BS." If you read my initial posts in this thread, it certainly was not BS thrown together, as you generically reference in your post.

But putting that aside...

The numbers, statistics, and evidence that I presented in my original posts have not been addressed by you, either because you are ignoring them or you are asking follow-up questions in the furtherance of a healthy debate (I do not know, but I will give you the benefit of the and assume it is the latter). You asked a question, which I answered and followed up with questions for you.

In sum, the biggest problem for Joanne P. McCallie, in terms of assessing her performance as the head coach at Duke, is when her performance is examined in a vacuum as compared to when it is compared and contrasted to the performance of her predecessor (at least for many Duke fans). On paper, winning 80 percent of overall games and making the Elite Eight four times in eight seasons looks incredible. But if you compare her eight years to the last 8-10 years of her predecessor, it is readily apparent to many fans that Duke has taken a step backward, in terms of performance against elite competition and results in the NCAA Tournament, despite having more talent than at any point in school history (which will again be the case next year). There are also post-game and off-the-court behavior that have turned off many Duke fans.

No one is disputing your right to defend Coach P or present another side of the argument. But those who disagree with you - even those who are extremely passionate in their disagreement - do not have their arguments automatically rendered as "BS thrown together" simply because you disagree with their points or do not appreciate the manner in which they are presented.
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I'll handle you on the Devils Den :D
 
still think they should hire Heidi VanDerveer who has the coaching blood and has been mentored by one of the best!
 
Gate81 said:
still think they should hire Heidi VanDerveer who has the coaching blood and has been mentored by one of the best!
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Your thoughts on Courtney Banghart as a potential replacement???
 
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