Joanne P. McCallie: I Am Not Buying

[sarals24]

Here, found the answer for you

LINK

 

[meyers7]

No you haven't. I have yet to articulate my rational. I am waiting for Cam to answer my last question. If he doesn't, then I will proceed with out it. I often can not respond right away so I want to give him plenty of time to respond.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

So that's where you think I was going. Answer me one more question if you will. While never being a real supporter of coach P, you use to argue for objectivity in respect to this subject on the Duke board. In your effort to look at both sides of the argument and as a voice of reason you made what I thought were some very good points on that site. In fact we were usually on the same page. While I always saw you as a voice of reason rather than a coach P supporter, to some your posts might have given the appearance as a supporter. There appeared to come a time when your posts and perspectives did a 180 and your posts became entirely critical. My question ( I have always wanted to ask you this) is what exactly was the cause of your sudden reversal?

I am a moderator on The Devil's Den. I am not a moderator on this board. My job is not just to promote discussion, but encourage both sides of the debate.

I am not a moderator on The Boneyard (though I have great respect for the moderators here, as they have a much more difficult job to do than I and they do it much better than I do). To be blunt, I was a bit perturbed (other issues, not related to McCallie, basketball, or posting) when I responded, so I was much less objective in terms of the tone and tenor of my post.

But, if you note, I used a lot of statistics, facts, and evidence on this site.

 

[CocoHusky]

With patience my reasons will soon become clear.

 

[pinotbear]

With patience my reasons will soon become clear.

 

[Kibitzer]

View attachment 9848

Enough already!

 

[Gate81]

i so look forward to when her contract is up and the threads/discussion about a terrible coach cease.

 

[j66kicker]

i so look forward to when her contract is up and the threads/discussion about a terrible coach cease.

She'll probably have her contract extended before it's up.

 

[BlueDevils]

That's a pretty good analysis of the rational that Cam actually used in his posts on the Duke site. Although from my recollection that factor didn't seem to play that much of a role in his change of perspective. The reason I asked that question was two fold.

I one found myself in the same type of situation in respect to another coach on another college team. I tended to argue on the side of caution in coming to a predetermined conclusion before considering all the effects of probable mitigating circumstances. In that case it was a statement by the coach herself that removed all doubt in my mind because it eliminated the one possibility that was a justification for her actions. I do believe I remember the turning point for Cam. I wonder if he does? My question was to clarify if we were on the same page in that respect. I do remember a post he made in that regard. As of yet he has yet to respond to my question.

When I posted on the Duke site, my arguments were not really in defense of coach P, rather to the validity of the arguments presented by her detractors. Some of those arguments were valid, but I found that the overwhelming number were not. When you throw enough BS together with some truth a large quantity of BS usually also gets though our filters and becomes part of our template for our future evaluation of what is true. When people articulate the reasons for their perspectives, those perspectives might actually convert us to their way of thinking. The other side of the coin is that any argument presented might also be used to hold them accountable for their rational. That's why I ask questions. The purpose is to create clarity in understanding exactly the other persons point of view. I personally do not like debate. It should not be about winning an argument, rather about exchanging perspectives to get the closest perspective of what is true possible. I find that when individuals do not seek clarity it usually means they have another purpose besides truth.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You absolutely nailed the last paragraph. That's the problem I have with other Duke fans.

 

[BlueDevils]

No you haven't. I have yet to articulate my rational. I am waiting for Cam to answer my last question. If he doesn't, then I will proceed with out it. I often can not respond right away so I want to give him plenty of time to respond.

My name is Matt. You've just became my favorite poster.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

When I posted on the Duke site, my arguments were not really in defense of coach P, rather to the validity of the arguments presented by her detractors. Some of those arguments were valid, but I found that the overwhelming number were not. When you throw enough BS together with some truth a large quantity of BS usually also gets though our filters and becomes part of our template for our future evaluation of what is true. When people articulate the reasons for their perspectives, those perspectives might actually convert us to their way of thinking. The other side of the coin is that any argument presented might also be used to hold them accountable for their rational. That's why I ask questions. The purpose is to create clarity in understanding exactly the other persons point of view. I personally do not like debate. It should not be about winning an argument, rather about exchanging perspectives to get the closest perspective of what is true possible. I find that when individuals do not seek clarity it usually means they have another purpose besides truth.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You absolutely nailed the last paragraph. That's the problem I have with other Duke fans.

Willtalk, your posts on The Devil's Den were nothing close to how you describe them. In this thread, you have neither articulated your point of view nor have you presented your rationale or reasoning for your point of view. Rather, you make a generalization about Duke fans, without any evidence or support, characterizing it as "BS." If you read my initial posts in this thread, it certainly was not BS thrown together, as you generically reference in your post.

But putting that aside...

The numbers, statistics, and evidence that I presented in my original posts have not been addressed by you, either because you are ignoring them or you are asking follow-up questions in the furtherance of a healthy debate (I do not know, but I will give you the benefit of the and assume it is the latter). You asked a question, which I answered and followed up with questions for you.

In sum, the biggest problem for Joanne P. McCallie, in terms of assessing her performance as the head coach at Duke, is when her performance is examined in a vacuum as compared to when it is compared and contrasted to the performance of her predecessor (at least for many Duke fans). On paper, winning 80 percent of overall games and making the Elite Eight four times in eight seasons looks incredible. But if you compare her eight years to the last 8-10 years of her predecessor, it is readily apparent to many fans that Duke has taken a step backward, in terms of performance against elite competition and results in the NCAA Tournament, despite having more talent than at any point in school history (which will again be the case next year). There are also post-game and off-the-court behavior that have turned off many Duke fans.

No one is disputing your right to defend Coach P or present another side of the argument. But those who disagree with you - even those who are extremely passionate in their disagreement - do not have their arguments automatically rendered as "BS thrown together" simply because you disagree with their points or do not appreciate the manner in which they are presented.

 

[BlueDevils]

Willtalk, your posts on The Devil's Den were nothing close to how you describe them. In this thread, you have neither articulated your point of view nor have you presented your rationale or reasoning for your point of view. Rather, you make a generalization about Duke fans, without any evidence or support, characterizing it as "BS." If you read my initial posts in this thread, it certainly was not BS thrown together, as you generically reference in your post.

But putting that aside...

The numbers, statistics, and evidence that I presented in my original posts have not been addressed by you, either because you are ignoring them or you are asking follow-up questions in the furtherance of a healthy debate (I do not know, but I will give you the benefit of the and assume it is the latter). You asked a question, which I answered and followed up with questions for you.

In sum, the biggest problem for Joanne P. McCallie, in terms of assessing her performance as the head coach at Duke, is when her performance is examined in a vacuum as compared to when it is compared and contrasted to the performance of her predecessor (at least for many Duke fans). On paper, winning 80 percent of overall games and making the Elite Eight four times in eight seasons looks incredible. But if you compare her eight years to the last 8-10 years of her predecessor, it is readily apparent to many fans that Duke has taken a step backward, in terms of performance against elite competition and results in the NCAA Tournament, despite having more talent than at any point in school history (which will again be the case next year). There are also post-game and off-the-court behavior that have turned off many Duke fans.

No one is disputing your right to defend Coach P or present another side of the argument. But those who disagree with you - even those who are extremely passionate in their disagreement - do not have their arguments automatically rendered as "BS thrown together" simply because you disagree with their points or do not appreciate the manner in which they are presented.

I'll handle you on the Devils Den

 

[Gate81]

still think they should hire Heidi VanDerveer who has the coaching blood and has been mentored by one of the best!

 

[CocoHusky]

still think they should hire Heidi VanDerveer who has the coaching blood and has been mentored by one of the best!

Your thoughts on Courtney Banghart as a potential replacement???

 

[BlueDevils]

Your thoughts on Courtney Banghart as a potential replacement???

No thank you

 

[willtalk]

No you haven't. I have yet to articulate my rational. I am waiting for Cam to answer my last question. If he doesn't, then I will proceed with out it. I often can not respond right away so I want to give him plenty of time to respond.

Since Cam still has not answered my question about when his perspective shifted I am going to go ahead and make my original point despite the fact that Cam has opened up a whole new can of worms in his subsequent posts that also require a response.

In the time I spent on the Duke site I constantly heard about how coach P ruined the team that she inherited. That seemed to have been a major factor in a large percentage of the McCalley detractors dislike of her. I finally did a bit of research on the record of the previous season and what I found that the previous team got no farther in the playoffs than it did the subsequent season under McCalley. This despite having A. Bales and L. Harding instead of the two new Freshman McDonald AA. Now the records show that coach G couldn't take the team any farther in the NCAA's with those same McAA plus Bales and Harding that coach P minus them with only the new freshmen as a trade off. I was even more surprised once I found out who Bales and Harding were. Now I did hear that there were mitigating circumstances ( excuses ) for that early exit, but even more legit mitigating circumstances ( rational explanations) were never ever considered by the coach P detractors when they happened to her teams.

This was the basically all I was going to add. No this is not saying that McCalley was left with an weak team, but a very good team. But as UCMiami alluded to in a previous post, a team that needed to adjust to a new system, which some of them couldn't or resisted in doing. UC Miami also stated that a coach should really begin to be held accountable once the old coaches players are gone and she has her own recruits in place. The team actually started to gel during the Liston, Gray, Peter, etc soph season and then a series of injuries towards the end of that season began a long chain of injuries continuing through multiple season that derailed that promise.

 

[CocoHusky]

Will, not to be the grammer police but if you are going to be sticking up for someone get the spelling right. It's McCallie spelled correctly in the title of the thread and it's Peters-Haley Peters.

 

[OldAlum]

Well it is grammar...

 

[willtalk]

Willtalk, your posts on The Devil's Den were nothing close to how you describe them. In this thread, you have neither articulated your point of view nor have you presented your rationale or reasoning for your point of view. Rather, you make a generalization about Duke fans, without any evidence or support, characterizing it as "BS." If you read my initial posts in this thread, it certainly was not BS thrown together, as you generically reference in your post.

But putting that aside...

The numbers, statistics, and evidence that I presented in my original posts have not been addressed by you, either because you are ignoring them or you are asking follow-up questions in the furtherance of a healthy debate (I do not know, but I will give you the benefit of the and assume it is the latter). You asked a question, which I answered and followed up with questions for you.----------------.

You never really answered my question either in this post or the previous one. The question was if you know when your perspective on McCalley changed. You only responded with a statement as to your role as moderator. I would also like to know what those follow up questions were that you had for me. I did not see any in your posts?

It is relatively easy for you to make your claim about my posts on the Duke site because the last post ( other than an informational one on a former player) was over two years ago. Also how many people on this site would have spent time their to really know which of our perspectives were true. I made a lot of posts starting in the summer of 20o9 till about two years ago. They basically followed the same premise I am using in this thread. I hold people accountable by asking them questions if I feel that they are making blanket statements or things are being left out. If you read my actual post I never stated anything about BS being thrown together, rather that when BS is thrown together with truth some of the BS slips through. I also never made a blanket statement about Duke fans or even about the majority of the fans posting on the site. I stated that an overwhelming arguments made by detractors were invalid. Actually I should not have used the term arguments because the posts I was referring too were not even arguments but blanket statements or hate rants. It was usually those type of posts that I targeted. In my post I stated that some of the critical posts on McCalley were valid. The difference was that a small minority of the posters posted most of the negatives. They would turn almost every thread into a coach P hate fest. I just got tired of them hyjacking almost every thread. It created a atmosphere of negativity that drove a lot good posters who wanted to remain neutral off.

Why would you even assume that I would consider your previous posts BS by anything that I might have posted. I spent almost one post characterizing your posts as projecting reason before you changed your perspective. I never even implied that they became unreasonable after I perceived a perspective change on your part either. Now having reasonable arguments does not mean they are necessarily unbiased or objective. You yourself stated ' the prosecution rests". A prosecutor is not unbiased. When only one side is presented objectivity is lost.

Now I stated when it comes to who's perspective on my posts on the Duke site is correct, I hold your responses to my posts on this thread up as evidence. I know what my intent was. I stand by that. Why should reasonable people accept that you can evaluate the multitude of the posts I made for years on the Duke site, when you either misread or misinterpreted the very few I made on the very thread. I hold that your objectivity has been tainted on this issue. You accuse a non-affiliated follower of WCBB of being a coach P supporter.

Stats are often used to create an appearance of objectivity. It all depends which states are used and in what context they are used.

 

[willtalk]

Will, not to be the grammer police but if you are going to be sticking up for someone get the spelling right. It's McCallie spelled correctly in the title of the thread and it's Peters-Haley Peters.

I could never spell worth a darn. I think it might have had something to do with going to school and not being able to speak English at a time when their were no special programs in that respect. They just threw you in class and expected you to sink or swim. Coco Husky- If you don't want to be the Grammar police then don't be the Grammar police. I suspect this has more to do with a personal issue with you. You didn't like the questions I ask on that other thread as well. The good ole boy system is alive and well on the Uconn site. I this the best you can do? Attack the messenger rather than the message.

I would always chose to be able to reason rather than spell any day of the week.

 

[willtalk]

What the???????? I lost an entire post that was not posted for some reason or other. It was my rational for my original post. Now I have to redo it. I really hate to write.

 

[CocoHusky]

I could never spell worth a darn. I think it might have had something to do with going to school and not being able to speak English at a time when their were no special programs in that respect. They just threw you in class and expected you to sink or swim. Coco Husky- If you don't want to be the Grammar police then don't be the Grammar police. I suspect this has more to do with a personal issue with you. You didn't like the questions I ask on that other thread as well. The good ole boy system is alive and well on the Uconn site. I this the best you can do? Attack the messenger rather than the message.

I would always chose to be able to reason rather than spell any day of the week.

Q: Is this the best you can do?
A: No, but I have yet to see where my best is required in debating you.
C: Attack the messenger rather than the message.
R: Hardly, getting the messenger to articulate a point is not an attack. My apologies for assuming you had a point to articulate.
C: I would always chose to be able to reason rather than spell any day of the week.
R: In consecutive post now you have demonstrated the ability to do neither. There is always tomorrow!

 

[JS]

If you don't want to be the Grammar police then don't be the Grammar police. I suspect this has more to do with a personal issue with you. You didn't like the questions I ask on that other thread as well. The good ole boy system is alive and well on the Uconn site.

You're getting increasingly personal, not to mention prolix.

Cam made a brief reference to your position on another board. We don't need, from you, a book devoted to your posting adventures long ago and far away.

And incidentally, if you perceive a good ole boy system here that you don't like, you're free to spend your time elsewhere.

 

[willtalk]

Q: Is this the best you can do?
A: No, but I have yet to see where my best is required in debating you.
C: Attack the messenger rather than the message.
R: Hardly, getting the messenger to articulate a point is not an attack. My apologies for assuming you had a point to articulate.
C: I would always chose to be able to reason rather than spell any day of the week.
R: In consecutive post now you have demonstrated the ability to do neither. There is always tomorrow!

You have just validated my perspective as to the intent of your post. You did not need me to spell their names correctly to know who I was referring too so there was no articulation involved in your grammar police response. I was correct in my assumption that I offended you indirectly on that other thread about my remark on about the disingenuous intent and hypocrisy of the some of the PC crowd. Well you see I don't care. I do not go on boards to make friends but to be honest with myself and others.

 

[BlueDevils]

Since Cam still has not answered my question about when his perspective shifted I am going to go ahead and make my original point despite the fact that Cam has opened up a whole new can of worms in his subsequent posts that also require a response.

In the time I spent on the Duke site I constantly heard about how coach P ruined the team that she inherited. That seemed to have been a major factor in a large percentage of the McCalley detractors dislike of her. I finally did a bit of research on the record of the previous season and what I found that the previous team got no farther in the playoffs than it did the subsequent season under McCalley. This despite having A. Bales and L. Harding instead of the two new Freshman McDonald AA. Now the records show that coach G couldn't take the team any farther in the NCAA's with those same McAA plus Bales and Harding that coach P minus them with only the new freshmen as a trade off. I was even more surprised once I found out who Bales and Harding were. Now I did hear that there were mitigating circumstances ( excuses ) for that early exit, but even more legit mitigating circumstances ( rational explanations) were never ever considered by the coach P detractors when they happened to her teams.

This was the basically all I was going to add. No this is not saying that McCalley was left with an weak team, but a very good team. But as UCMiami alluded to in a previous post, a team that needed to adjust to a new system, which some of them couldn't or resisted in doing. UC Miami also stated that a coach should really begin to be held accountable once the old coaches players are gone and she has her own recruits in place. The team actually started to gel during the Liston, Gray, Peter, etc soph season and then a series of injuries towards the end of that season began a long chain of injuries continuing through multiple season that derailed that promise.

Ok listen STOP IT because I'm starting to like you tooooooo much... This is why I'm ok with JPM. When she had a full healthy squad of HER players that buys into HER scheme I actually didn't mind watching and as you said things started to gel. You're the first fan to fully detail an unbias analysis on JPM mixing the good with the bad and you might not even be a Duke fan. Thank you.