Is the SEC Overrated?

[SCGamecock]

How many other conferences are out there actively accusing Geno and UConn of cheating?

I wasn’t aware the conference office publicly accused UConn of cheating... if it indeed was the SEC then that’s interesting.

If Pat did so then that’s Tennessee.. not the SEC. she didn’t speak for the entire SEC... she spoke for the Tennessee Lady Vols.

 

[JS]

I wasn’t aware the conference office publicly accused UConn of cheating... if it indeed was the SEC then that’s interesting.

If Pat did so then that’s Tennessee.. not the SEC. she didn’t speak for the entire SEC... she spoke for the Tennessee Lady Vols.

It was the SEC as a formal matter, but at Tennessee's request. The letter from the Tennessee AD to the Conference was published. "We would prefer to remain anonymous but will do it ourselves if we have to . . ."

While I'm at it, a few more observations.

1. There are relations between coaches and relations between fan bases. Both cases feature mixed feelings.

a. As to coaches, Geno can make up with Pat (evidence is he did), can have no ill will toward Holly, and can still, when last heard from on the subject, decline her overtures for a game until there's an apology to Maya and her family.​

b. As to the fan bases, many here say it's time to get over it. Many others aren't inclined to.
​

2. People aren't going to change how they feel on this because someone else tells them they should.

3. Even people who have mostly common attitudes can differ on this point. Within the past 24 hours I wrote to a certain well-known board admin that my continued schadenfreude is really an enjoyment of the imagined misery of the Ghosts of The Summitt Past.

I hope that vision of anguished apparitions is true, too.

Back in the day, I enjoyed poking fun at Pat, as is well known to many who've been around for a while. That was before news of the unfortunate health turn, and I mostly feel kind of sorry for the likeable but lost Holly.

Leaving, as the last subject, the players. I never, ever, enjoy the despondency of losing players. Don't like cameras on their tears. Don't like the portion of a post-game presser devoted to them and won't watch it.

My attitude toward certain fans doesn't mean I lack empathy. It's just reserved for human beings and members of the animal kingdom.

 

[triaddukefan]

I think that judgments about conferences oversimplify in another way. Two of the seven SEC teams that qualified for the tournament, Texas A&M and Missouri, could be characterized as Big 12 teams, because of their history. Four of the eight ACC teams in the tournament, Notre Dame, Louisville, Miami, and Syracuse, could be said to be more old Big East teams than ACC teams. Because of this, I don't even know if it's fair to say that any conference has a particular style associated with it.

You do realize that Miami has been in the ACC longer than it was in the Big East? And you do realize that the Big East swiped Louisville from Conference USA? And that they were a member of CUSA for a longer period than they were in the Big East? When I think of Depaul, Marquette, Cincy, and Louisville..... I think of CUSA as opposed to the Big East.... but anyway....

 

[nwhoopfan]

You do realize that Miami has been in the ACC longer than it was in the Big East? And you do realize that the Big East swiped Louisville from Conference USA? And that they were a member of CUSA for a longer period than they were in the Big East? When I think of Depaul, Marquette, Cincy, and Louisville..... I think of CUSA as opposed to the Big East.... but anyway....

Go back further, to the Metro Conference. Louisville, Memphis, Cincy, Florida St., Virginia Tech...can't remember who else, but most of them ended up in CUSA. After a brief stop in the Great Midwest. If somebody created a flow chart of every conference that ever was, and the path various schools have followed from conference to conference, that would get crazy.

And don't forget that the Big 12 is a mashup of the Big 8 and SWC.

 

[triaddukefan]

Go back further, to the Metro Conference. Louisville, Memphis, Cincy, Florida St., Virginia Tech...can't remember who else, but most of them ended up in CUSA. After a brief stop in the Great Midwest. If somebody created a flow chart of every conference that ever was, and the path various schools have followed from conference to conference, that would get crazy.

And don't forget that the Big 12 is a mashup of the Big 8 and SWC.

Tulane was part of the Metro... FSU left to join the ACC... I think Lower Carolina was in it at some point in the 80s before they left for the SEC. Charlotte was in it during the 1990s...

 

[noirwestern]

The SEC does play a different style of basketball -- and for reasons I don't understand, the refs go along with it.

Quite possibly the most understated understatement in the history of understating. Woke up too early and thought, "I know, I'll watch Tenn at Oregon, get bored and go back to bed". But no. I immediately noticed that the team in orange seems to commit multiple fouls on just about every single defensive set. Hand checks, holds, hacks, full body shoves, reach ins, you name it, they do it. A lot. And at least once or twice a quarter may or may not get called for it but on the next play will do the same exact thing or something even more obvious that doesn't merit so much as a peep from the refs. I can't say it's the whole league but if this game had been called fairly Oregon would have won by forty free throws, minimum.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I wasn’t aware the conference office publicly accused UConn of cheating... if it indeed was the SEC then that’s interesting.

If Pat did so then that’s Tennessee.. not the SEC. she didn’t speak for the entire SEC... she spoke for the Tennessee Lady Vols.

That was Slive's doing, probably.

When he came in as SEC Commissioner he insisted that SEC teams not make individual reports to the NCAA but instead report them to the SEC office to be forwarded on.

Summitt certainly had pull with the league, I would imagine, but the rank and file of the SEC schools probably have little or no interest in pulling UConn from its WBB pedestal.

I can't think of another school that really has any beef.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Go back further, to the Metro Conference. Louisville, Memphis, Cincy, Florida St., Virginia Tech...can't remember who else, but most of them ended up in CUSA. After a brief stop in the Great Midwest. If somebody created a flow chart of every conference that ever was, and the path various schools have followed from conference to conference, that would get crazy.

And don't forget that the Big 12 is a mashup of the Big 8 and SWC.

South Carolina and USM and Tulane. A strange mishmash of teams.

The Metro came somewhat close to becoming a power league as there were serious talks to add Miami, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, Syracuse, and some others and football. With divisions and a championship game before the SEC.

history would really have gone differently, perhaps. I guess the league would have pulled apart anyway as it would not have been particularly cohesive and the interests of the various schools would have varied pretty significantly.

 

[toadfoot]

Quite possibly the most understated understatement in the history of understating. Woke up too early and thought, "I know, I'll watch Tenn at Oregon, get bored and go back to bed". But no. I immediately noticed that the team in orange seems to commit multiple fouls on just about every single defensive set. Hand checks, holds, hacks, full body shoves, reach ins, you name it, they do it. A lot. And at least once or twice a quarter may or may not get called for it but on the next play will do the same exact thing or something even more obvious that doesn't merit so much as a peep from the refs. I can't say it's the whole league but if this game had been called fairly Oregon would have won by forty free throws, minimum.

It was Oregon St., but otherwise you're right on target. Sooner or later, the SEC is going to need to have a "come to Jesus moment" regarding the way they coach. Recent rules changes with respect to freedom of movement, emphasis on teaching offensive basketball skills, even at young ages and the general desire of fans to see those offensive skills on display is eventually going to force the NCAA to more rigorously penalize teams that play a more physical, but less talented form of defense. At least, that's my hope. Watching a typical SEC game is a boring proposition and if the game should move in that direction instead of what I believe will happen, I'll just stop watching, much as I did with the men 25 years ago.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Thanks for the additions on the Metro history.

Conference realignments and shuffling are hard to get used to. Lack of geographical logic is challenging, but what really bothers me is how some long time bitter rivalries just up and disappear. Louisville and Memphis in men's hoops used to be one of the best rivalries in sports. They both changed leagues multiple times, were together briefly but mostly separated. I think the rivalry has fairly much died out.

 

[nwhoopfan]

On that Oregon St.-Tennessee matchup, I think playing Southern Cal twice during the season did a good job of preparing the Beavers for that level of physicality. USC is kind of an SEC team masquerading as a Pac 12 team with their defensive style.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

It was Oregon St., but otherwise you're right on target. Sooner or later, the SEC is going to need to have a "come to Jesus moment" regarding the way they coach. Recent rules changes with respect to freedom of movement, emphasis on teaching offensive basketball skills, even at young ages and the general desire of fans to see those offensive skills on display is eventually going to force the NCAA to more rigorously penalize teams that play a more physical, but less talented form of defense. At least, that's my hope. Watching a typical SEC game is a boring proposition and if the game should move in that direction instead of what I believe will happen, I'll just stop watching, much as I did with the men 25 years ago.

You maybe confuse a preferred method of playing with the method of playing that best fits the available talent.

Give SEC schools four players who can stretch a defense to put around a great big and they'll all play with more spacing and balance. But most of them don't have that kind of talent.

They draw from talent pools that often don't have a great deal of developed basketball players, but do have lots of athleticism. It's much easier to make a raw defender a great defender with effort than it is turn them into one of the most skilled players in the world.

I know Geno could definitely do it without breaking a sweat, but mortals are somewhat limited.

With all that said, the better talented and coached SEC teams do try to play with some balance and spacing. But Missouri as someone mentioned is no exception. They have gotten where they are by playing physical defense and building around a very good player who can create shots for teammates with presence. Not any greater grasp of new basketball.

The SEC is generally full of building teams rather than established elites who pick and choose.

 

[toadfoot]

You maybe confuse a preferred method of playing with the method of playing that best fits the available talent.

Give SEC schools four players who can stretch a defense to put around a great big and they'll all play with more spacing and balance. But most of them don't have that kind of talent.

They draw from talent pools that often don't have a great deal of developed basketball players, but do have lots of athleticism. It's much easier to make a raw defender a great defender with effort than it is turn them into one of the most skilled players in the world.

I know Geno could definitely do it without breaking a sweat, but mortals are somewhat limited.

With all that said, the better talented and coached SEC teams do try to play with some balance and spacing. But Missouri as someone mentioned is no exception. They have gotten where they are by playing physical defense and building around a very good player who can create shots for teammates with presence. Not any greater grasp of new basketball.

The SEC is generally full of building teams rather than established elites who pick and choose.

With all due respect, I'm not confused at all. A number of schools that 10-15 years ago were nearly anonymous in the women's game have developed programs that play a much more offensive style, while still playing solid defense. Oregon, Oregon St. and Louisville are 3 that immediately come to mind. If they can recruit offensively talented players why can't SEC teams do likewise? And why do the occasional SEC teams that do have several talented offensive players still play that overly physical style of defense? The answer of course, is that those coaches are essentially challenging the officials to call fouls every possession and they know that most officials won't.

 

[nwhoopfan]

They draw from talent pools that often don't have a great deal of developed basketball players, but do have lots of athleticism. It's much easier to make a raw defender a great defender with effort than it is turn them into one of the most skilled players in the world.

Are you saying a whole region produces players that are lacking development and overall basketball skills? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Recruiting is a nationwide and even international endeavor these days. If the players in your backyard aren't what you are looking for, go find the kind of players you want from somewhere else. Not really buying this. I guess it's a chicken or the egg thing. To me it seems SEC coaches bring in players that fit the prevailing style of play in the conference, rather than nobody can get skilled players or shooters so they all are forced to play a certain way.

Or even worse they get players from outside the region that could've been something more if they had gone elsewhere for college, but get stuck playing for a coach not known for skill development to the detriment of their career. Like maybe say 3 players from the State of Oregon that play for a team that wears orange.

 

[noirwestern]

[QUOTE="The SEC is generally full of building teams rather than established elites who pick and choose.[/QUOTE]

For the purposes of civility I wasn't going to mention anyone who doesn't wear orange but, dang, the grabby, push off, run into and over stuff kinda permeates the entire conference, present company included. I have heard a whole lot about how rough Mizzou plays but after watching them, and Georgia, the orange ones, the red and white ones...I can't see any difference in the overall game plan of disrupt their offense any way you can. And for a conference that's existed as such since 1933 y'all are sure taking your sweet time establishing an elite.

 

[nwhoopfan]

SEC (whether deservedly or not) has for the most part been considered the best conference for women's hoops more often than not. Tennessee is hoops royalty, present slow decline not withstanding. Georgia and Vandy used to be powers. South Carolina has fairly well established itself in the last 5 years or so. Mississippi St. has made a quick ascent up the ladder of success. Building programs? Not able to compete with other schools when it comes to recruiting top players? Not sure how that's possible for a conference that has been among the nation's elite for as long as there has been NCAA women's basketball.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

SEC (whether deservedly or not) has for the most part been considered the best conference for women's hoops more often than not. Tennessee is hoops royalty, present slow decline not withstanding. Georgia and Vandy used to be powers. South Carolina has fairly well established itself in the last 5 years or so. Mississippi St. has made a quick ascent up the ladder of success. Building programs? Not able to compete with other schools when it comes to recruiting top players? Not sure how that's possible for a conference that has been among the nation's elite for as long as there has been NCAA women's basketball.

Is there a SEC team other than Tennessee and to some degree South Carolina that is recruiting out of region?

I don't know what to tell you. The SEC won a title last year and had the runner up. Miss State is as good a bet as anyone to make the Final again this year.

Good for Oregon State for beating Tennessee, I guess, but I don't know what that means really. They are a #6 seed, but Tennessee isn't exactly carrying the flag for the league at this point. They have some coaching issues and I don't think their problem is they don't have enough skill and rely on physical defense.

Lousiville and Oregon both have player of the year candidates and that's largely the explanation for why they are #1 seeds, not any great fundamental understanding of the best offensive flow, IMO.

The middle of the SEC can play with or lose to the middle of other leagues. No argument here.

The SEC has a deep lineup of pretty good teams, but its not like every one of them is a final four threat. But not sure that's the case for anyone else either. Not sure what you want to say here.

 

[oldude]

Is there a SEC team other than Tennessee and to some degree South Carolina that is recruiting out of region?

I don't know what to tell you. The SEC won a title last year and had the runner up. Miss State is as good a bet as anyone to make the Final again this year.

Good for Oregon State for beating Tennessee, I guess, but I don't know what that means really. They are a #6 seed, but Tennessee isn't exactly carrying the flag for the league at this point. They have some coaching issues and I don't think their problem is they don't have enough skill and rely on physical defense.

Lousiville and Oregon both have player of the year candidates and that's largely the explanation for why they are #1 seeds, not any great fundamental understanding of the best offensive flow, IMO.

The middle of the SEC can play with or lose to the middle of other leagues. No argument here.

The SEC has a deep lineup of pretty good teams, but its not like every one of them is a final four threat. But not sure that's the case for anyone else either. Not sure what you want to say here.

In my origin post, the biggest issue I highlight relative to the SEC is that 4 SEC schools, Mizzou, LSU, GA & A&M all struggled and/or lost to lower seeded mid majors. That might happen in MBB, but it is virtually unprecedented in WBB.

 

[toadfoot]

Is there a SEC team other than Tennessee and to some degree South Carolina that is recruiting out of region?

I don't know what to tell you. The SEC won a title last year and had the runner up. Miss State is as good a bet as anyone to make the Final again this year.

Good for Oregon State for beating Tennessee, I guess, but I don't know what that means really. They are a #6 seed, but Tennessee isn't exactly carrying the flag for the league at this point. They have some coaching issues and I don't think their problem is they don't have enough skill and rely on physical defense.

Lousiville and Oregon both have player of the year candidates and that's largely the explanation for why they are #1 seeds, not any great fundamental understanding of the best offensive flow, IMO.

The middle of the SEC can play with or lose to the middle of other leagues. No argument here.

The SEC has a deep lineup of pretty good teams, but its not like every one of them is a final four threat. But not sure that's the case for anyone else either. Not sure what you want to say here.

My mentioning of Oregon St. had nothing to do with them beating Tennessee. With their recent results they're a program on the rise. I only mentioned them because they've done it with offensively skilled players. No argument that Tennessee's problems start at the top, but why do they, even with some quality offensive players continue to play that overly physical style? And no argument that the SEC had last year's 2 finalists. Not to take anything away from either team, they were both very good, but the FF was officiated like an SEC game. It should come as no surprise that the 2 teams that emphasize freedom of movement and offensive flow lost to 2 teams that emphasize physical, impede movement styles of defense. Shame on UConn and Stanford for not adjusting. The crux of my argument is that the days of teams getting by with that physical style are numbered. No one wants to see foul shooting contests, but the onus shouldn't be on the officials, it should be on the coaches and players. If teams can't play defense without the grabbing, bumping, pushing style and turning the game into a boring foul shooting contest it's on them.

 

[oldude]

No argument that Tennessee's problems start at the top, but why do they, even with some quality offensive players continue to play that overly physical style?.

Sadly, it’s the only way Holly knows how to coach.

 

[toadfoot]

Sadly, it’s the only way Holly knows how to coach.

Apparently, it’s the only way a lot of coaches know how to coach, but they need to learn or the game will soon pass them by. The handwriting is already on the wall.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I thought I was responding to a point about the SEC schools playing ugly, defensive oriented basketball because they can't recruit offensively skilled players. I guess not.

Just for fun I took a little trip down memory lane to think about some former players of note. The SEC schools have had no trouble raiding the Northwest for top talent going back several decades. Just off the top of my head:

Chantelle Anderson Vancouver, WA/Vanderbilt
Kara Braxton Portland, OR/Georgia
Ashley Smith Oregon City, OR/Vanderbilt
Angie Bjorklund Spokane, WA/Tennessee

Not to mention 4 Oregonians that have played at Tennessee in the last 5 years (the 3 current players + Jordan Reynolds).

 

[Gamecockfan77]

My mentioning of Oregon St. had nothing to do with them beating Tennessee. With their recent results they're a program on the rise. I only mentioned them because they've done it with offensively skilled players. No argument that Tennessee's problems start at the top, but why do they, even with some quality offensive players continue to play that overly physical style? And no argument that the SEC had last year's 2 finalists. Not to take anything away from either team, they were both very good, but the FF was officiated like an SEC game. It should come as no surprise that the 2 teams that emphasize freedom of movement and offensive flow lost to 2 teams that emphasize physical, impede movement styles of defense. Shame on UConn and Stanford for not adjusting. The crux of my argument is that the days of teams getting by with that physical style are numbered. No one wants to see foul shooting contests, but the onus shouldn't be on the officials, it should be on the coaches and players. If teams can't play defense without the grabbing, bumping, pushing style and turning the game into a boring foul shooting contest it's on them.

My thesis is that there are not yet enough offensively skilled players across women's basketball to make that a reality and I don't think it is particularly imminent. A free flowing system is pretty irrelevant if a team can't hit perimeter shots.

Defense will always have a place in winning and losing. Offense -- also important on a championship level.

In general talent generally starts to win out.

A team that cannot score will find its end. A team that cannot defend will also find its end.

Let's not confuse what is aesthetically pleasing with what is important. Both ends of the floors are critically important.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I thought I was responding to a point about the SEC schools playing ugly, defensive oriented basketball because they can't recruit offensively skilled players. I guess not.

Just for fun I took a little trip down memory lane to think about some former players of note. The SEC schools have had no trouble raiding the Northwest for top talent going back several decades. Just off the top of my head:

Chantelle Anderson Vancouver, WA/Vanderbilt
Kara Braxton Portland, OR/Georgia
Ashley Smith Oregon City, OR/Vanderbilt
Angie Bjorklund Spokane, WA/Tennessee

Not to mention 4 Oregonians that have played at Tennessee in the last 5 years (the 3 current players + Jordan Reynolds).

I don't understand your point. Do those player play for SEC teams now? If not, what does that have to do with a current SEC school losing in the second round?

I've already said Tennessee is an exception to recruiting out of region.

The assumption being made is that spreading the floor and passing the ball and making shots is some great strategy that is only pursued by certain teams. That's not really true.

Teams that don't have great offensive skill talent emphasize defense, particularly those teams that are building and can land raw players.

It's quite often quite successful.

 

[willtalk]

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PAC 4 1 5 had 6 teams; went 9-2; 4 teams in S16. By seeds, 1 team overachieved-OreSt, 1 team underachieved-Cal and the rest did what they should have.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------.

I have to come to Cals defense. It could not be said they underachieved except in respect to losing to a lower seed. However considering they were playing without their best player center Anigwe who was scratched right before the game they overachieved to even make the game a contest. Being that she was their top scorer and rebounder and the usual focal point of their offense along with the team facing the 6'9" challenge that Virginia's height represented. The fact that without her the game was contested till the end implies that with her they definitely would not have lost and the team actually overachieved if anything in that game. Anigwe's absence was a real gift to the other team. To put it plainly in this case it should be said " Yes for Virginia there was a Santa Claus".