Is the SEC Overrated?

[toadfoot]

So, with these numbers in hand. Did the SEC underachieve? Yes, as 5 teams were seeded in top 16 and only 3 made it. However, to dismiss victories of double digits as underachieving as Oldude did against SC is not logical. This team has flaws, yes it does but it also has major injuries at guard so they are understaffed. I would not be surprised if they lost to a gritty Buffalo team but they did play a very good schedule. I think our bias against A'ja Wilson comes into play here more than logic. She is absolutely a stud player. We think KLS is better and we feel the ESPN announcers are too effusive in Wilson praise, but to deny that A'ja is not really, really good is just myopic.

I think it's fair to say there are degrees of underachieving. In and of itself, an 11 point win isn't underachieving, but you need to take into account the competition. North Carolina A&T's rating via RPI, Massey & Sagarin were respectively, 145, 150, 195. A&T's tallest starter was 6' 1". I'd be willing to bet that if UConn had beaten St. Francis by 11, a lot of UConn fans would have been seriously concerned.

Tennessee was ripe for this when the brackets were announced. Holly has continued to lower the bar each year. Now it's two years in a row this team failed to get to the sweet 16. Make no mistake, they did earn the #3 seed and the right to host by their strong OOC and their wins, however bad the coaching is.

Keep in mind, and if the committee didn't, shame on them, Tennessee beat SC twice, but Wilson didn't play in either game. The 3rd game, when Wilson did play was a double digit win for SC.

LSU, Georgia and Mizzou were all flawed teams as well which, as Olddude did correctly assert, and fit the style of the SEC where they achieved some good wins. LSU was without it's center AND CMU was probably underseeded so we can't be to negative on that one loss. Mizzou was a very bad loss. Georgia losing at home to #5 Duke isn't an upset but getting blown out by how they did is surprising. Heck, even Texas A&M needed a miracle to beat DePaul.

I agree that Duke beating Georgia wasn't an upset, because Georgia shouldn't have been seeded #4, but suffering their 2nd worst loss of the year, on their home floor speaks volumes. I watched the entire DePaul/A&M game and at times it was very physical. What's incomprehensible is that A&M was whistled for a total of 9 fouls (1 of the 9 was intentional with 1.8 ticks left). My sense is that the officials didn't deliberately favor A&M, but that they got caught up in the emotion of the partisan home crowd and just momentarily lost their minds, but regardless of the reason, the officiating was awful and partisan. A&M is extremely lucky to still be playing.

Conference strength ebbs and flows over time and as you can see, even the rating entities can't gain a consensus-one has the Big12, one has the PAC12 and one has the SEC.
To me, the eye test and court play say it's the ACC followed by the PAC12 with the SEC 3rd. The SEC has 1 really good team and 1 pretty good team. The ACC has 2 really good teams, The PAC12 has 1 really good team and 3 pretty good teams.

Agreed.

 

[toadfoot]

but most SEC coaches are still stuck in the physical defense/rebounding style that Summitt was successful with 20 years ago.

⇑⇑This ⇑⇑

 

[Adesmar123]

before a national TV audience on ESPN, Pat Summitt agreed, and as she commented at the time, “We’ll play anyone, anytime, anywhere.”

Apparently that wasn't exactly true.

 

[oldude]

Apparently that wasn't exactly true.

So you’re suggesting that the information presented in Birth of a Dynasty is an urban myth. Is there any documentation to support that position?

 

[Adesmar123]

So you’re suggesting that the information presented in Birth of a Dynasty is an urban myth. Is there any documentation to support that position?

So you're suggesting that Geno is a Communist?

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I'm not sure what the SEC's "rating" is to determine whether they are "over," "under," or "properly," rated to begin with, but I'm pretty sure that it must have been based on a 30 game schedule rather than 1 game.

A single elimination tournament is a pretty poor way of proving who the best team (or conference) is with any certainty, though it certainly is an entertaining way of crowning a champion.

 

[MainefanSC]

Apparently that wasn't exactly true.

You are correct. She changed her mind and decided she would not play UConn again. Of course the NCAA tournament could have them meet.

 

[SCGamecock]

The $EC is so desperate to knock UConn from its perch and threatened by this little mid-major school in Storrs that they accused UConn of cheating to recruit Maya Moore. And they still believe it to this day simply because Pat Summitt said "Geno knows what he did." As if the NCAA would pass up a chance to go after UConn for such an egregious violation. Actually the NCAA would sanction our WCBB program for something dumb like Geno telling a 7th grade little leaguer that will never be recruited by or play for Geno good luck in her next baseball game. Again precipitated by the $EC's pathetic jealousy. So, who has more NCAA violations in their history? Pat or Geno? Some folks may not like the answer to that. I dislike the $EC for all the crap they've tried to pull on us over the years.

You’re projecting your Tennessee hate onto the entire conference. There probably isn’t a single SC fan on the planet that cares about anything in this post aside from the drive to “knock UConn from its perch”.... but I can guarantee you that particular feeling isn’t shared by the SEC alone. Trust me, everybody wants to knock UConn off its perch. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

 

[HoopsFan21]

You’re projecting your Tennessee hate onto the entire conference. There probably isn’t a single SC fan on the planet that cares about anything in this post aside from the drive to “knock UConn from its perch”.... but I can guarantee you that particular feeling isn’t shared by the SEC alone. Trust me, everybody wants to knock UConn off its perch. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

How many other conferences are out there actively accusing Geno and UConn of cheating?

 

[DefenseBB]

How many other conferences are out there actively accusing Geno and UConn of cheating?

There are those of us who want to move on from this old argument as even Geno has moved on. Just go on to VolNation if anyone really wants to live the Hatfield's and McCoy's, me I just want to enjoy the sport. You all remember that Geno and Pat made up before she retired right? You also realize he went to Knoxville to her memorial service and gave a donation to her charity. Seeing how it was him and his program that he built, I think we can move on like he did. Forgive but never forget....

 

[winlots]

At the end of last season, with SC beating MS St for the National Championship, the SEC reigned supreme. This season, the pundits have repeatedly proclaimed the SEC as the toughest conference in WBB. With 7 teams from the SEC making the Big Dance, only the 14 school ACC had more teams in the tournament with 8.

DUDE: Is the SEC overrated?? OverRATED? Perhaps by just a tad. A really, really big, or maybe HUGE tad. (For the record, am not anti-SEC....well, maybe in football.)

 

[lne001]

If the B1G's looking for a WCBB team to represent, I know a school that'll get the job done and would happily join their conference.

Unfortunately for UConn, they are not.

They might be interested, however, in a large AAU state university somewhere near their geography that can deliver $60 million in television revenues annually. Do you know anyone like that?

 

[maccca3232]

I listed the conference, the MasseyRating (Mas), Sagarin Rating (Sag), and RPI for each conference.
Conf Mas Sag RPI
ACC 3 3 2 had 7 teams; went 10-3; 4 teams in the S16. By seeds, 2 teams overachieved-Duke/Va, 1 team underachieved-FSU (I don't view 8/9 matchups as under/over)

ACC had 8 teams; went 10-4.

You missed either Syracuse and Miami who both lost in the first round as #8 seeds verses Quinnipiac and Oklahoma State, respectively.

 

[ASweet3781]

Besides the Pac 12, all of these conferences are top heavy.

 

[JordyG]

I think it's time that the BY move on from criticizing Pat Summitt, who did more to elevate WBB than anyone who came before her.

I'm willing to give Summitt a pass on her 40 page indictment of UConn WBB which in fact was determined to have one minor violation, that UConn set up what was determined to be an impermissible meeting at ESPN's studios in Bristol for Maya during her recruiting visit. The reason Pat gets a pass from me, is because of what I've learned about Alzheimer's. Specifically that this terrible disease can affect an individual's personality many years before it is actually diagnosed. The earliest signs can be a slow and steady loss of mental sharpness, irritability and memory loss.

As someone who lives with a person who has creeping Alzheimer's I know how it begins, and it often begins with irrational suspicion, coming from a previously rational mind. It can be couched in a string of rational mental steps or observances. It can also lead to a desperate paranoia. Fortunately for me the last part hasn't come. Yet. Yes, you are 100% correct and I agree, although many here will hold on to their anger and vitriol forever. Such is human nature.

 

[iri10]

I feel that the modern SEC has two, or one, or zero teams in any given year that are great, a modest number that are merely good/decent, and a bunch of irrelevants. Not too different from other highly rated conferences. The SEC had two last year and probably two this year, even though injuries have weakened SC from what they could have been.

Outside those 0-2 great teams, the rest of the conference doesn't impress me - they might have more talent than average because of the geography advantage, but they are a prime example of doing less with more.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Seriously! You are asking the Boneyard if the SEC, home to Tennessee, is overrated? I can only presume you know you will receive completely and totally unbiased objective responses.

 

[Bigpetunia]

With respect, I believe that "blanket" judgements about entire conferences tend to be over-simplifications. I think that this is especially true with respect to the SEC. The SEC is, first and foremost, a football conference. It is a huge business enterprise that spins off gargantuan revenues. That money stream permits, relatively speaking, a fairly high level of resources dedicated to other sports, and to women's sports in particular, even if those sports are at a low level of priority for individual athletic directors...and even if they operate at a net loss. As a result, whether or not they boast the most successful teams in a given sport for any given year, as they did in WBB last year, they will almost always be a bit disproportionally deep in terms of team representation at the highest levels. That relative depth, in my opinion, skews judgements regarding whether or not they're over or under-rated, because they will generally always field a greater number of "decent" programs than will a lot of less-well-off conferences. Economic disparity rules the day in a lot of ways...or is that talking politics?

 

[ocoandasoc]

I watch a lot of SEC WCBB. Here are my observations.

The SEC does play a different style of basketball -- and for reasons I don't understand, the refs go along with it.
But when the Tourney rolls around, the games may be called a bit differently.

In general, SEC teams overall stress athleticism over shooting abilities. Even within the Conference a team like Missouri notched many of its SEC wins against more talented teams by spreading the floor and making threes. Few SEC teams do that, and so after 16 conference games most of the teams have forgotten how to defend it. (Georgia and Tennessee, for example, are helpless against highly disciplined teams that can shoot from the outside.)

When you gear your offense and defense to play a certain way because most of your serious competition plays that way it leaves you vulnerable to teams that play a different way.

WCBB is changing. Even ten years ago a physical, pressing SEC team could simply beat up and out-muscle many teams. Not anymore. Teams in the Power 5 -- and even the mid majors -- have become much more adept at beating the press and toughening up their rebounding. So the SEC teams have lost a bit of that advantage.

Three of the best SEC coaches have their teams in the Sweet 16. These three teams also happen to have the best balance and ball movement. And that's no coincidence. If two of these teams reach the Final Eight, and one gets to the Final Four, it will be impossible to say that the SEC is "overrated."

Several SEC teams were seeded too high. Why? Tennessee was seeded too high because of two bogus wins against a Wilson-less South Carolina and because, well because they're Tennessee. They were arguably the seventh best team in the SEC this year -- but they get a three seed? Then, once the Committee makes Tenn a three, how can you go lower than 4, 5, and 6 for the teams that beat them? (A&M, Missouri, LSU) Then they make Georgia a four, since they beat Missouri and A&M, even though they lost BADLY to every other ranked team they played. It was a real domino effect.

The selection committee continues to overrate the Power Five conference teams. They forgive those teams lots of losses to other teams in their conference, but downgrade a mid-major for losing to another conference team. Buffalo and Central Michigan, for example, had 9 losses between them, and three of those were to each other! CMU beat two of the three Power Five conference teams they played and has now won 22 of the last 23 games it has played, including beating the Big 10 champ on their home court by 18. Buffalo also went two and one against Power Five teams. (Heck, the third-best team in the MAC went two and oh against Power Five teams!) But doesn't the "eye test" come into play? Nope. Because the selection committee doesn't watch that many mid-major games.

AP and RPI ratings come into play here as well. But in odd ways. The AP starts with a set of assumptions. This year, SEC teams were ranked highly. Most of them played soft ooc schedules so they stayed in the Top 25. AP voters make sure to stack the initial ratings with teams from the Power Five based on last year's results and this year's forecasts. Then AP voters seem to designate one or two mid-majors to put in the 18 to 25 slots. (This year Marquette was ranked 16th before playing a game, but gave way to Villanova and Green Bay. (CMU checked in at #35 in the last AP tally, Buffalo not at all, as AP voters inexplicably chose Belmont at 23 and Mercer at 25.) ESPN doesn't fare much better. In his late February ranking of mid-majors Graham Hays had CMU and Buffalo ranked 9th and 10th. With the RPI, mid-majors get less credit for the games they win than some Power Five conference teams get for games they lose. But when Buffalo showed up with a high RPI ranking many said it wan an anomaly, and they barely made the Tourney.

SEC fans are eager to use the argument that if some of these other teams played in the SEC they'd have a lot more losses. That might or might not be true. But, look at it this way. If CMU or Buffalo had been SEC teams (or any Power Five for that matter) and lost four or five more games they would have been seeded between 4th and 8th, not 11th!

 

[FridaFriend]

I think that judgments about conferences oversimplify in another way. Two of the seven SEC teams that qualified for the tournament, Texas A&M and Missouri, could be characterized as Big 12 teams, because of their history. Four of the eight ACC teams in the tournament, Notre Dame, Louisville, Miami, and Syracuse, could be said to be more old Big East teams than ACC teams. Because of this, I don't even know if it's fair to say that any conference has a particular style associated with it.

 

[DefenseBB]

ACC had 8 teams; went 10-4.

You missed either Syracuse and Miami who both lost in the first round as #8 seeds verses Quinnipiac and Oklahoma State, respectively.

Doh! I missed Miami-must be over my euphoria for Quinnipiac...Thanks

 

[tomcat]

That’s a fair point. My point was that it’s time for UConn fans to get over any animosity they may hold for Pat Summitt, as Geno has done.

I'm with you. There is no way any of us will know whether what Pat said and did was a symptom of early onset Alzheimer's, but I prefer to take the more charitable road and believe that it was. I was as rabid an anti-Pat and anti-TN fan as there was, but that was then. In what is a new world, there is simply no point to holding on to stored-up anger.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

I'm with you. There is no way any of us will know whether what Pat said and did was a symptom of early onset Alzheimer's, but I prefer to take the more charitable road and believe that it was. I was as rabid an anti-Pat and anti-TN fan as there was, but that was then. In what is a new world, there is simply no point to holding on to stored-up anger.

If anyone should dislike Pat Summitt, it should be fans of other SEC teams. SC was like 1-44 against UT until we finally beat them again about 5 or 6 years ago. Oddly enough, I can't think of anyone I know that disliked her, and this is before the Alzheimer's diagnosis. My mom also succumbed to Alzheimer's and the strange demeanor is common several years before typical diagnosis. I know, for a fact, that Pat was already quite ill a couple of years before she retired. I sit 4 rows almost directly behind the opposing head coach and I mentioned to friends in 2010 that Pat wasn't herself. She would zone out during games and didn't say too much during time outs. It was so sad to see.

 

[IWearShoes]

If anyone should dislike Pat Summitt, it should be fans of other SEC teams. SC was like 1-44 against UT until we finally beat them again about 5 or 6 years ago. Oddly enough, I can't think of anyone I know that disliked her, and this is before the Alzheimer's diagnosis. My mom also succumbed to Alzheimer's and the strange demeanor is common several years before typical diagnosis. I know, for a fact, that Pat was already quite ill a couple of years before she retired. I sit 4 rows almost directly behind the opposing head coach and I mentioned to friends in 2010 that Pat wasn't herself. She would zone out during games and didn't say too much during time outs. It was so sad to see.

MSU never beat her. We were 0-36 until we finally got'em in OT in 2016. There were some close calls when Kara was the PG, but she got us on buzzer beaters twice. We're 4-1 since the winless streak. I love Holly.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I'm with you. There is no way any of us will know whether what Pat said and did was a symptom of early onset Alzheimer's, but I prefer to take the more charitable road and believe that it was. I was as rabid an anti-Pat and anti-TN fan as there was, but that was then. In what is a new world, there is simply no point to holding on to stored-up anger.

It wasn't Pat or Tennessee that dimed us out to the NCAA. It was the SEC. It was their signature on the complaint, not Pat's, so her disease is irrelevant vis a vis the 37-page complaint alleging all sorts of crazy things. Once the SEC put their signature on it, they owned it for better or worse. Same as when they reported Geno's call to Mo'ne Davis which was brought to their attention by Vandy. The whole country and all of its universities and ADs heard that call broadcast nationally and only one conference decided that it was worth filing a complaint with the NCAA.