Is the SEC Overrated?

[Gamecockfan77]

I'm not sure what the SEC's "rating" is to determine whether they are "over," "under," or "properly," rated to begin with, but I'm pretty sure that it must have been based on a 30 game schedule rather than 1 game.

A single elimination tournament is a pretty poor way of proving who the best team (or conference) is with any certainty, though it certainly is an entertaining way of crowning a champion.

 

[MainefanSC]

Apparently that wasn't exactly true.

You are correct. She changed her mind and decided she would not play UConn again. Of course the NCAA tournament could have them meet.

 

[SCGamecock]

The $EC is so desperate to knock UConn from its perch and threatened by this little mid-major school in Storrs that they accused UConn of cheating to recruit Maya Moore. And they still believe it to this day simply because Pat Summitt said "Geno knows what he did." As if the NCAA would pass up a chance to go after UConn for such an egregious violation. Actually the NCAA would sanction our WCBB program for something dumb like Geno telling a 7th grade little leaguer that will never be recruited by or play for Geno good luck in her next baseball game. Again precipitated by the $EC's pathetic jealousy. So, who has more NCAA violations in their history? Pat or Geno? Some folks may not like the answer to that. I dislike the $EC for all the crap they've tried to pull on us over the years.

You’re projecting your Tennessee hate onto the entire conference. There probably isn’t a single SC fan on the planet that cares about anything in this post aside from the drive to “knock UConn from its perch”.... but I can guarantee you that particular feeling isn’t shared by the SEC alone. Trust me, everybody wants to knock UConn off its perch. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

 

[HoopsFan21]

You’re projecting your Tennessee hate onto the entire conference. There probably isn’t a single SC fan on the planet that cares about anything in this post aside from the drive to “knock UConn from its perch”.... but I can guarantee you that particular feeling isn’t shared by the SEC alone. Trust me, everybody wants to knock UConn off its perch. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

How many other conferences are out there actively accusing Geno and UConn of cheating?

 

[DefenseBB]

How many other conferences are out there actively accusing Geno and UConn of cheating?

There are those of us who want to move on from this old argument as even Geno has moved on. Just go on to VolNation if anyone really wants to live the Hatfield's and McCoy's, me I just want to enjoy the sport. You all remember that Geno and Pat made up before she retired right? You also realize he went to Knoxville to her memorial service and gave a donation to her charity. Seeing how it was him and his program that he built, I think we can move on like he did. Forgive but never forget....

 

[winlots]

At the end of last season, with SC beating MS St for the National Championship, the SEC reigned supreme. This season, the pundits have repeatedly proclaimed the SEC as the toughest conference in WBB. With 7 teams from the SEC making the Big Dance, only the 14 school ACC had more teams in the tournament with 8.

DUDE: Is the SEC overrated?? OverRATED? Perhaps by just a tad. A really, really big, or maybe HUGE tad. (For the record, am not anti-SEC....well, maybe in football.)

 

[lne001]

If the B1G's looking for a WCBB team to represent, I know a school that'll get the job done and would happily join their conference.

Unfortunately for UConn, they are not.

They might be interested, however, in a large AAU state university somewhere near their geography that can deliver $60 million in television revenues annually. Do you know anyone like that?

 

[maccca3232]

I listed the conference, the MasseyRating (Mas), Sagarin Rating (Sag), and RPI for each conference.
Conf Mas Sag RPI
ACC 3 3 2 had 7 teams; went 10-3; 4 teams in the S16. By seeds, 2 teams overachieved-Duke/Va, 1 team underachieved-FSU (I don't view 8/9 matchups as under/over)

ACC had 8 teams; went 10-4.

You missed either Syracuse and Miami who both lost in the first round as #8 seeds verses Quinnipiac and Oklahoma State, respectively.

 

[ASweet3781]

Besides the Pac 12, all of these conferences are top heavy.

 

[JordyG]

I think it's time that the BY move on from criticizing Pat Summitt, who did more to elevate WBB than anyone who came before her.

I'm willing to give Summitt a pass on her 40 page indictment of UConn WBB which in fact was determined to have one minor violation, that UConn set up what was determined to be an impermissible meeting at ESPN's studios in Bristol for Maya during her recruiting visit. The reason Pat gets a pass from me, is because of what I've learned about Alzheimer's. Specifically that this terrible disease can affect an individual's personality many years before it is actually diagnosed. The earliest signs can be a slow and steady loss of mental sharpness, irritability and memory loss.

As someone who lives with a person who has creeping Alzheimer's I know how it begins, and it often begins with irrational suspicion, coming from a previously rational mind. It can be couched in a string of rational mental steps or observances. It can also lead to a desperate paranoia. Fortunately for me the last part hasn't come. Yet. Yes, you are 100% correct and I agree, although many here will hold on to their anger and vitriol forever. Such is human nature.

 

[iri10]

I feel that the modern SEC has two, or one, or zero teams in any given year that are great, a modest number that are merely good/decent, and a bunch of irrelevants. Not too different from other highly rated conferences. The SEC had two last year and probably two this year, even though injuries have weakened SC from what they could have been.

Outside those 0-2 great teams, the rest of the conference doesn't impress me - they might have more talent than average because of the geography advantage, but they are a prime example of doing less with more.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Seriously! You are asking the Boneyard if the SEC, home to Tennessee, is overrated? I can only presume you know you will receive completely and totally unbiased objective responses.

 

[Bigpetunia]

With respect, I believe that "blanket" judgements about entire conferences tend to be over-simplifications. I think that this is especially true with respect to the SEC. The SEC is, first and foremost, a football conference. It is a huge business enterprise that spins off gargantuan revenues. That money stream permits, relatively speaking, a fairly high level of resources dedicated to other sports, and to women's sports in particular, even if those sports are at a low level of priority for individual athletic directors...and even if they operate at a net loss. As a result, whether or not they boast the most successful teams in a given sport for any given year, as they did in WBB last year, they will almost always be a bit disproportionally deep in terms of team representation at the highest levels. That relative depth, in my opinion, skews judgements regarding whether or not they're over or under-rated, because they will generally always field a greater number of "decent" programs than will a lot of less-well-off conferences. Economic disparity rules the day in a lot of ways...or is that talking politics?

 

[ocoandasoc]

I watch a lot of SEC WCBB. Here are my observations.

The SEC does play a different style of basketball -- and for reasons I don't understand, the refs go along with it.
But when the Tourney rolls around, the games may be called a bit differently.

In general, SEC teams overall stress athleticism over shooting abilities. Even within the Conference a team like Missouri notched many of its SEC wins against more talented teams by spreading the floor and making threes. Few SEC teams do that, and so after 16 conference games most of the teams have forgotten how to defend it. (Georgia and Tennessee, for example, are helpless against highly disciplined teams that can shoot from the outside.)

When you gear your offense and defense to play a certain way because most of your serious competition plays that way it leaves you vulnerable to teams that play a different way.

WCBB is changing. Even ten years ago a physical, pressing SEC team could simply beat up and out-muscle many teams. Not anymore. Teams in the Power 5 -- and even the mid majors -- have become much more adept at beating the press and toughening up their rebounding. So the SEC teams have lost a bit of that advantage.

Three of the best SEC coaches have their teams in the Sweet 16. These three teams also happen to have the best balance and ball movement. And that's no coincidence. If two of these teams reach the Final Eight, and one gets to the Final Four, it will be impossible to say that the SEC is "overrated."

Several SEC teams were seeded too high. Why? Tennessee was seeded too high because of two bogus wins against a Wilson-less South Carolina and because, well because they're Tennessee. They were arguably the seventh best team in the SEC this year -- but they get a three seed? Then, once the Committee makes Tenn a three, how can you go lower than 4, 5, and 6 for the teams that beat them? (A&M, Missouri, LSU) Then they make Georgia a four, since they beat Missouri and A&M, even though they lost BADLY to every other ranked team they played. It was a real domino effect.

The selection committee continues to overrate the Power Five conference teams. They forgive those teams lots of losses to other teams in their conference, but downgrade a mid-major for losing to another conference team. Buffalo and Central Michigan, for example, had 9 losses between them, and three of those were to each other! CMU beat two of the three Power Five conference teams they played and has now won 22 of the last 23 games it has played, including beating the Big 10 champ on their home court by 18. Buffalo also went two and one against Power Five teams. (Heck, the third-best team in the MAC went two and oh against Power Five teams!) But doesn't the "eye test" come into play? Nope. Because the selection committee doesn't watch that many mid-major games.

AP and RPI ratings come into play here as well. But in odd ways. The AP starts with a set of assumptions. This year, SEC teams were ranked highly. Most of them played soft ooc schedules so they stayed in the Top 25. AP voters make sure to stack the initial ratings with teams from the Power Five based on last year's results and this year's forecasts. Then AP voters seem to designate one or two mid-majors to put in the 18 to 25 slots. (This year Marquette was ranked 16th before playing a game, but gave way to Villanova and Green Bay. (CMU checked in at #35 in the last AP tally, Buffalo not at all, as AP voters inexplicably chose Belmont at 23 and Mercer at 25.) ESPN doesn't fare much better. In his late February ranking of mid-majors Graham Hays had CMU and Buffalo ranked 9th and 10th. With the RPI, mid-majors get less credit for the games they win than some Power Five conference teams get for games they lose. But when Buffalo showed up with a high RPI ranking many said it wan an anomaly, and they barely made the Tourney.

SEC fans are eager to use the argument that if some of these other teams played in the SEC they'd have a lot more losses. That might or might not be true. But, look at it this way. If CMU or Buffalo had been SEC teams (or any Power Five for that matter) and lost four or five more games they would have been seeded between 4th and 8th, not 11th!

 

[FridaFriend]

I think that judgments about conferences oversimplify in another way. Two of the seven SEC teams that qualified for the tournament, Texas A&M and Missouri, could be characterized as Big 12 teams, because of their history. Four of the eight ACC teams in the tournament, Notre Dame, Louisville, Miami, and Syracuse, could be said to be more old Big East teams than ACC teams. Because of this, I don't even know if it's fair to say that any conference has a particular style associated with it.

 

[DefenseBB]

ACC had 8 teams; went 10-4.

You missed either Syracuse and Miami who both lost in the first round as #8 seeds verses Quinnipiac and Oklahoma State, respectively.

Doh! I missed Miami-must be over my euphoria for Quinnipiac...Thanks

 

[tomcat]

That’s a fair point. My point was that it’s time for UConn fans to get over any animosity they may hold for Pat Summitt, as Geno has done.

I'm with you. There is no way any of us will know whether what Pat said and did was a symptom of early onset Alzheimer's, but I prefer to take the more charitable road and believe that it was. I was as rabid an anti-Pat and anti-TN fan as there was, but that was then. In what is a new world, there is simply no point to holding on to stored-up anger.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

I'm with you. There is no way any of us will know whether what Pat said and did was a symptom of early onset Alzheimer's, but I prefer to take the more charitable road and believe that it was. I was as rabid an anti-Pat and anti-TN fan as there was, but that was then. In what is a new world, there is simply no point to holding on to stored-up anger.

If anyone should dislike Pat Summitt, it should be fans of other SEC teams. SC was like 1-44 against UT until we finally beat them again about 5 or 6 years ago. Oddly enough, I can't think of anyone I know that disliked her, and this is before the Alzheimer's diagnosis. My mom also succumbed to Alzheimer's and the strange demeanor is common several years before typical diagnosis. I know, for a fact, that Pat was already quite ill a couple of years before she retired. I sit 4 rows almost directly behind the opposing head coach and I mentioned to friends in 2010 that Pat wasn't herself. She would zone out during games and didn't say too much during time outs. It was so sad to see.

 

[IWearShoes]

If anyone should dislike Pat Summitt, it should be fans of other SEC teams. SC was like 1-44 against UT until we finally beat them again about 5 or 6 years ago. Oddly enough, I can't think of anyone I know that disliked her, and this is before the Alzheimer's diagnosis. My mom also succumbed to Alzheimer's and the strange demeanor is common several years before typical diagnosis. I know, for a fact, that Pat was already quite ill a couple of years before she retired. I sit 4 rows almost directly behind the opposing head coach and I mentioned to friends in 2010 that Pat wasn't herself. She would zone out during games and didn't say too much during time outs. It was so sad to see.

MSU never beat her. We were 0-36 until we finally got'em in OT in 2016. There were some close calls when Kara was the PG, but she got us on buzzer beaters twice. We're 4-1 since the winless streak. I love Holly.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I'm with you. There is no way any of us will know whether what Pat said and did was a symptom of early onset Alzheimer's, but I prefer to take the more charitable road and believe that it was. I was as rabid an anti-Pat and anti-TN fan as there was, but that was then. In what is a new world, there is simply no point to holding on to stored-up anger.

It wasn't Pat or Tennessee that dimed us out to the NCAA. It was the SEC. It was their signature on the complaint, not Pat's, so her disease is irrelevant vis a vis the 37-page complaint alleging all sorts of crazy things. Once the SEC put their signature on it, they owned it for better or worse. Same as when they reported Geno's call to Mo'ne Davis which was brought to their attention by Vandy. The whole country and all of its universities and ADs heard that call broadcast nationally and only one conference decided that it was worth filing a complaint with the NCAA.

 

[SCGamecock]

How many other conferences are out there actively accusing Geno and UConn of cheating?

I wasn’t aware the conference office publicly accused UConn of cheating... if it indeed was the SEC then that’s interesting.

If Pat did so then that’s Tennessee.. not the SEC. she didn’t speak for the entire SEC... she spoke for the Tennessee Lady Vols.

 

[JS]

I wasn’t aware the conference office publicly accused UConn of cheating... if it indeed was the SEC then that’s interesting.

If Pat did so then that’s Tennessee.. not the SEC. she didn’t speak for the entire SEC... she spoke for the Tennessee Lady Vols.

It was the SEC as a formal matter, but at Tennessee's request. The letter from the Tennessee AD to the Conference was published. "We would prefer to remain anonymous but will do it ourselves if we have to . . ."

While I'm at it, a few more observations.

1. There are relations between coaches and relations between fan bases. Both cases feature mixed feelings.

a. As to coaches, Geno can make up with Pat (evidence is he did), can have no ill will toward Holly, and can still, when last heard from on the subject, decline her overtures for a game until there's an apology to Maya and her family.​

b. As to the fan bases, many here say it's time to get over it. Many others aren't inclined to.
​

2. People aren't going to change how they feel on this because someone else tells them they should.

3. Even people who have mostly common attitudes can differ on this point. Within the past 24 hours I wrote to a certain well-known board admin that my continued schadenfreude is really an enjoyment of the imagined misery of the Ghosts of The Summitt Past.

I hope that vision of anguished apparitions is true, too.

Back in the day, I enjoyed poking fun at Pat, as is well known to many who've been around for a while. That was before news of the unfortunate health turn, and I mostly feel kind of sorry for the likeable but lost Holly.

Leaving, as the last subject, the players. I never, ever, enjoy the despondency of losing players. Don't like cameras on their tears. Don't like the portion of a post-game presser devoted to them and won't watch it.

My attitude toward certain fans doesn't mean I lack empathy. It's just reserved for human beings and members of the animal kingdom.

 

[triaddukefan]

I think that judgments about conferences oversimplify in another way. Two of the seven SEC teams that qualified for the tournament, Texas A&M and Missouri, could be characterized as Big 12 teams, because of their history. Four of the eight ACC teams in the tournament, Notre Dame, Louisville, Miami, and Syracuse, could be said to be more old Big East teams than ACC teams. Because of this, I don't even know if it's fair to say that any conference has a particular style associated with it.

You do realize that Miami has been in the ACC longer than it was in the Big East? And you do realize that the Big East swiped Louisville from Conference USA? And that they were a member of CUSA for a longer period than they were in the Big East? When I think of Depaul, Marquette, Cincy, and Louisville..... I think of CUSA as opposed to the Big East.... but anyway....

 

[nwhoopfan]

You do realize that Miami has been in the ACC longer than it was in the Big East? And you do realize that the Big East swiped Louisville from Conference USA? And that they were a member of CUSA for a longer period than they were in the Big East? When I think of Depaul, Marquette, Cincy, and Louisville..... I think of CUSA as opposed to the Big East.... but anyway....

Go back further, to the Metro Conference. Louisville, Memphis, Cincy, Florida St., Virginia Tech...can't remember who else, but most of them ended up in CUSA. After a brief stop in the Great Midwest. If somebody created a flow chart of every conference that ever was, and the path various schools have followed from conference to conference, that would get crazy.

And don't forget that the Big 12 is a mashup of the Big 8 and SWC.

 

[triaddukefan]

Go back further, to the Metro Conference. Louisville, Memphis, Cincy, Florida St., Virginia Tech...can't remember who else, but most of them ended up in CUSA. After a brief stop in the Great Midwest. If somebody created a flow chart of every conference that ever was, and the path various schools have followed from conference to conference, that would get crazy.

And don't forget that the Big 12 is a mashup of the Big 8 and SWC.

Tulane was part of the Metro... FSU left to join the ACC... I think Lower Carolina was in it at some point in the 80s before they left for the SEC. Charlotte was in it during the 1990s...

 

[noirwestern]

The SEC does play a different style of basketball -- and for reasons I don't understand, the refs go along with it.

Quite possibly the most understated understatement in the history of understating. Woke up too early and thought, "I know, I'll watch Tenn at Oregon, get bored and go back to bed". But no. I immediately noticed that the team in orange seems to commit multiple fouls on just about every single defensive set. Hand checks, holds, hacks, full body shoves, reach ins, you name it, they do it. A lot. And at least once or twice a quarter may or may not get called for it but on the next play will do the same exact thing or something even more obvious that doesn't merit so much as a peep from the refs. I can't say it's the whole league but if this game had been called fairly Oregon would have won by forty free throws, minimum.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I wasn’t aware the conference office publicly accused UConn of cheating... if it indeed was the SEC then that’s interesting.

If Pat did so then that’s Tennessee.. not the SEC. she didn’t speak for the entire SEC... she spoke for the Tennessee Lady Vols.

That was Slive's doing, probably.

When he came in as SEC Commissioner he insisted that SEC teams not make individual reports to the NCAA but instead report them to the SEC office to be forwarded on.

Summitt certainly had pull with the league, I would imagine, but the rank and file of the SEC schools probably have little or no interest in pulling UConn from its WBB pedestal.

I can't think of another school that really has any beef.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Go back further, to the Metro Conference. Louisville, Memphis, Cincy, Florida St., Virginia Tech...can't remember who else, but most of them ended up in CUSA. After a brief stop in the Great Midwest. If somebody created a flow chart of every conference that ever was, and the path various schools have followed from conference to conference, that would get crazy.

And don't forget that the Big 12 is a mashup of the Big 8 and SWC.

South Carolina and USM and Tulane. A strange mishmash of teams.

The Metro came somewhat close to becoming a power league as there were serious talks to add Miami, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, Syracuse, and some others and football. With divisions and a championship game before the SEC.

history would really have gone differently, perhaps. I guess the league would have pulled apart anyway as it would not have been particularly cohesive and the interests of the various schools would have varied pretty significantly.

 

[toadfoot]

Quite possibly the most understated understatement in the history of understating. Woke up too early and thought, "I know, I'll watch Tenn at Oregon, get bored and go back to bed". But no. I immediately noticed that the team in orange seems to commit multiple fouls on just about every single defensive set. Hand checks, holds, hacks, full body shoves, reach ins, you name it, they do it. A lot. And at least once or twice a quarter may or may not get called for it but on the next play will do the same exact thing or something even more obvious that doesn't merit so much as a peep from the refs. I can't say it's the whole league but if this game had been called fairly Oregon would have won by forty free throws, minimum.

It was Oregon St., but otherwise you're right on target. Sooner or later, the SEC is going to need to have a "come to Jesus moment" regarding the way they coach. Recent rules changes with respect to freedom of movement, emphasis on teaching offensive basketball skills, even at young ages and the general desire of fans to see those offensive skills on display is eventually going to force the NCAA to more rigorously penalize teams that play a more physical, but less talented form of defense. At least, that's my hope. Watching a typical SEC game is a boring proposition and if the game should move in that direction instead of what I believe will happen, I'll just stop watching, much as I did with the men 25 years ago.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Thanks for the additions on the Metro history.

Conference realignments and shuffling are hard to get used to. Lack of geographical logic is challenging, but what really bothers me is how some long time bitter rivalries just up and disappear. Louisville and Memphis in men's hoops used to be one of the best rivalries in sports. They both changed leagues multiple times, were together briefly but mostly separated. I think the rivalry has fairly much died out.