Is the AAC even P6?

[DarthGrumpy]

It was Pitt or PSU for a basketball first conference based on northeast metro areas. Pitt may have been the better fit.

PSU as a football power and a hoops light weight still joins the Big 10 before the major shake ups ever take place.

Mike T.’s stories on the history are self serving. The old Big East was not destined to failure. It failed because men (presidents and conference leaders) could not deal with each other honestly or for a greater purpose. Better leadership may have changed the history more than a decision on Pitt vs PSU, and with that the bigger issue for Mike T was probably Mike T.

According to the records, in 1979 Providence, St. John's, Syracuse, and Georgetown began discussion to create a basketball-centric league whereby Boston College, Holy Cross, UConn, and Seton Hall were also invited. 7 of the 9 schools accepted the invite with Holy Cross and Rutgers saying no. Villanova was invited and joined in 1980. For 1982, Penn State was invited by Gavitt only to fail as a super-majority (6 of 8) was not reached as 3 members voted no - St. John's, Villanova, and Georgetown. It has been widely speculated; but, not validated that Villanova voted 'no' because it feared that Penn State would take away some of Villanova's standing in Pennsylvania (this was repeated 20 or so years later by Boston College with respect to the 'state' of New England) and as Villanova did not want to give internal pro-foootball forces any more momentum as Villanova had just scrapped its football program. Pittsburgh was added later in 1982 as a substitute for Penn State (which was also repeated 20+ years later when Pitt was substituted as a new member in the ACC after BC blocked UConn).

If Penn State had been in the Big East for a decade, why would it join the B1G in 1990 where it would always play second fiddle to Ohio State and Michigan (nothing says welcome to the league like being charged a TO for its home crowd being too loud in a '93 game versus Michigan) versus being one of the major powers (with Miami) in the old Big East?

And, of course, Gavitt's and Tranhese's comments were self-serving. The old Big East was their child. That does not mean that they were factually incorrect. They were also not blind. Both indicated that due to the changing shape of college sports, the old Big East was going to fracture between the big football schools and the smaller non-football schools. Unfortunately, certain university Presidents and AD's refused to work together to to overcome these obstacles and instead let petty jealousy destroy what the Big East was. Villanova's 'no' vote against Penn State was one of those.

 

[Bobol]

Below is what was written by former Syracuse University Jake Crothemal with regard to the rejection of Penn State's attempt to gain admission to the Big East. I asked the Assistant AD at one of the schools that voted "no" why her school voted against Penn State and she said "because we did not think they (PSU) had another Conference to go to". Younger people reading this post may not realize that at the time the "no" vote occurred there were a number of Independents playing big time football (Florida State, UMiami, VaTech, and others). At that time of the "no" vote there had been little or no conference reshuffling. A few years after the Big East's turn down of PSU college onlookers were surprised when the Big 10 invited P$U to become its 11th school. After PSU joined the Big 10 many of the remaining Independents abandoned Independence status and joined conferences. I have always believed that if PSU's bid to get in the Big East had not been rejected the landscape of conference memberships would be totally different today.
______________
per Jake Crothemal:
After only two years of existence as a conference formed specifically for men's basketball, football became an issue. Joe Paterno, head football coach and then Director of Athletics at Penn State, had been trying to put together an all-sports conference of the eastern Division IA independent schools. They included Syracuse, Boston College, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia and Temple. While our (SU's) football fortunes would be well served through such an alignment, it would have been a step backward for men's basketball. To enter into such an alignment Syracuse and Boston College would have had to leave the BIG EAST. With the reluctance of B.C. and Syracuse to do so, Penn State then asked for membership in the BIG EAST. This was a turning point in the Conferences history. If Penn State was accepted, our football would be protected. If Penn State was rejected, B.C. and Syracuse might have no other option but to leave the BIG EAST, and join together with the other Eastern independents. To expand membership in The BIG EAST Conference six affirmative votes were necessary. The vote was 5-3. Instead of taking Penn State, we invited Pittsburgh as the ninth member. At that time Pittsburgh and Penn State were bitter rivals, and Pittsburgh was less than enamored with aligning itself with Penn State. Pitt's membership in the BIG EAST, along with B.C. and Syracuse, checkmated Penn State's eastern all-sports conference, and gave the Conference one more Division IA school. This football issue nearly caused the premature demise of the BIG EAST. Clearly, three schools in the BIG EAST had no concept of the importance of football, but the others realized that this decision not to invite Penn State would come back to haunt us. In fact, football would dictate every future consideration of membership expansion of our "basketball" conference.

Remainder of story: A BIG EAST History & Retrospective (Part 1)

 

[Adios]

Long term, the NBE's equivalent is the WCC. The original USF has 2 titles, right?

 

[Zissou]

On the court, the new Big East is very similar to the current AAC as they both have 1 historically strong program (Villanova with 3 titles, UConn with 4 respectively), a small number of solid programs (G-town and Marquette with 1 title each and Cincinnati with 2) and others with varrying success or lack there of. So, if you consider the new Big East to be a major basketball conference, then the AAC must be one, also.

Some truth here about the historic leaders, but the Big East has been a top 3 conference for the past 5 years and the AAC #7. While Nova won 2 of the last 3 titles, the top half of the BE conference has been stronger than that of the AAC (and most conferences) with more bids and higher rankings.

UConn should be the top of the AAC, but as UConn faltered no one else made a real run. Wichita State was a mediocre add. Let’s hope they keep their coach.

 

[Zissou]

Pittsburgh was less than enamored with aligning itself with Penn State.

At the time being an independent power in football was not an exception, it was typical.

The Big East was forming a basketball conference. Pitt and Penn State were both independent football powers. Pitt was a better basketball potential in a metro area. Penn State was a weaker hoops potential in rural PA, far from any metro center.

Pitt may have been the better choice for forming a basketball conference.

The Big East was a little late in fielding a football conference. They made a number of mistakes, obviously. Of the long list of hindsight mistakes, I’m not sure a 1981 preference of Pitt over Penn State is high on the list. At the time both programs would not have been included, it was one or the other.

I can see where others view Penn State differently and think the whole world would have been different, but I’m not sure of that.

 

[Zissou]

I went to Penn State - Miami games in the era of major independents. It is hard to consider that era from today's perspective, as the TV money had not exploded and while the NCAA was still distributing the TV cash.

To really think back at the landscape of the time, Gavitt was fortunate to realize his Big East basketball dream before football dominated conference alignments.

The CFA was formed in the 1970s but TV rights were not really wrestled away from the NCAA until about 1984.

The Big East was able to form before football dictated the alignments. The Pitt vs. Penn State choice for the Big East was also pre 1984.

What if JoePa had acted on a football conference before the Big East, instead of after it?

In the late 1970s the affiliation for hoops was the Eastern 8.

It's easy to think of JoePa acting pre 1979 and forming Eastern Football from Penn State's Eastern 8 hoops partners - Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Nova, & UMass (no GW or Duquesne). The obvious adds would have been indy rivals Cuse and BC.

Miami at the time would have been outside of JoePa's eastern strategy. By 1990 it was more clear for Miami to benefit from a conference, but not in the 70s. Temple might have been considered at the time. UConn probably not. Maybe Holy Cross.

If JoePa had acted successfully before Gavitt, The Big East Conference in 1980 may have been Providence, UConn, St Johns, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Duquesne, GW, Bonnies, St Joes, and Rhody for 10 members.

The Eastern 10 Conference may have been Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Nova, UMass, Cuse, BC, Holy Cross, and Temple for 10 members.

Those would have been 2 good conferences, but neither would have achieved the greatness of the oBE in basketball in my opinion. Pitt, Nova, and Cuse were key components, as were Georgetown, St Johns, and later UConn.

Anyway, the Pitt vs Penn State decision of 1981 must be looked at in the context of those times, and can be accompanied by many other "what ifs". JoePa was a little late to the game in his eastern football efforts.

 

[Bobol]

Zissou ..... My daughter graduated from Villanova (class of 2009) so I share a fondness for Villanova however your simplistic and repetitious posts on this UConn site are tedious.

Please let me direct you to the Villanova sports website "Nova Nation". Boards

 

[CL82]

I went to Penn State - Miami games in the era of major independents. It is hard to consider that era from today's perspective, as the TV money had not exploded and while the NCAA was still distributing the TV cash.

To really think back at the landscape of the time, Gavitt was fortunate to realize his Big East basketball dream before football dominated conference alignments.

The CFA was formed in the 1970s but TV rights were not really wrestled away from the NCAA until about 1984.

The Big East was able to form before football dictated the alignments. The Pitt vs. Penn State choice for the Big East was also pre 1984.

What if JoePa had acted on a football conference before the Big East, instead of after it?

In the late 1970s the affiliation for hoops was the Eastern 8.

It's easy to think of JoePa acting pre 1979 and forming Eastern Football from Penn State's Eastern 8 hoops partners - Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Nova, & UMass (no GW or Duquesne). The obvious adds would have been indy rivals Cuse and BC.

Miami at the time would have been outside of JoePa's eastern strategy. By 1990 it was more clear for Miami to benefit from a conference, but not in the 70s. Temple might have been considered at the time. UConn probably not. Maybe Holy Cross.

If JoePa had acted successfully before Gavitt, The Big East Conference in 1980 may have been Providence, UConn, St Johns, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Duquesne, GW, Bonnies, St Joes, and Rhody for 10 members.

The Eastern 10 Conference may have been Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Nova, UMass, Cuse, BC, Holy Cross, and Temple for 10 members.

Those would have been 2 good conferences, but neither would have achieved the greatness of the oBE in basketball in my opinion. Pitt, Nova, and Cuse were key components, as were Georgetown, St Johns, and later UConn.

Anyway, the Pitt vs Penn State decision of 1981 must be looked at in the context of those times, and can be accompanied by many other "what ifs". JoePa was a little late to the game in his eastern football efforts.

What if Superman had landed in Germany instead of America?

 

[billybud]

Well, then he would have lived in Kleindorf....instead of Smallville.

And, technically, Superman did not land in America....it was Superboy who landed near and lived in Smallville...while Superman lived in Metropolis.

I know...but a slow season.

 

[businesslawyer]

See Navy.

The AAC values Football.

Basketball is an after thought.

See Wichita State.

I'm confused. You cite as evidence that the Big East allows one school to play football only, and allows another school to play basketball only, as evidence that the ACC values football and basketball is an after thought? May I suggest you take a college logic course, even if it's only on line.

(By the way -- I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion -- just laughing that you think the premises get you there.)

 

[Zissou]

I'm confused. You cite as evidence that the Big East allows one school to play football only, and allows another school to play basketball only, as evidence that the ACC values football and basketball is an after thought? May I suggest you take a college logic course, even if it's only on line.

(By the way -- I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion -- just laughing that you think the premises get you there.)

Actually, you do seem very confused. I think you said "Big East" when you meant American, and "ACC" when you meant AAC. Your conference is still struggling with identity and branding.

The AAC pays Navy a good sum for being "football only". The AAC pays Wichita State a tiny sum to be members with basketball, but not football.

 

[businesslawyer]

Actually, you do seem very confused. I think you said "Big East" when you meant American, and "ACC" when you meant AAC. Your conference is still struggling with identity and branding.

The AAC pays Navy a good sum for being "football only". The AAC pays Wichita State a tiny sum to be members with basketball, but not football.

Sigh. I apologize for the sloppiness.

 

[Husky25]

The P5 came about as primarily a football designation.

/thread

 

[Zissou]

Sigh. I apologize for the sloppiness.

No worries, it's hard to say AAC when the ACC is so established, and it's still easy to associate UConn with Big East.

Aside from the reference corrections, do you now connect the logic points on Wichita State and Navy?

 

[billybud]

Aside from the reference corrections, do you now connect the logic points on Wichita State and Navy?

"W"..One gathers wheat and one wears white?

 

[billybud]

Or...one is in a flyover state and the other's alumni pilots flyovers...

 

[Zissou]

One plays football in conference, but not basketball, and is highly compensated. One plays basketball in conference, but not football, and receives minimal compensation.

The AAC values football. Basketball is an after thought.

 

[Adios]

One plays football in conference, but not basketball, and is highly compensated. One plays basketball in conference, but not football, and receives minimal compensation.

The AAC values football. Basketball is an after thought.

This is such a self-serving fantasy.

The Big East values a short-sighted perspective on the future of college athletics.

 

[Zissou]

This is such a self-serving fantasy.

How much does Wichita State get?
How much does Navy get?

It's not that complicated.

 

[don356]

If not for Nova's recent success, the reformulated big east is basically the a10 on low dose steroids. The tourney has shown that.

 

[Zissou]

If not for Nova's recent success, the reformulated big east is basically the a10 on low dose steroids. The tourney has shown that.

That's kind of a silly statement.

Here is how silly at the moment: the highest A10 team on KenPom tonight is VCU at 56.

6 of the 10 Big East teams are rated higher.

3 of the 12 American teams are rated higher.

The American is P7. The Big East is better, the A10 is worse (even if you disregard Nova).

 

[Husky25]

That's kind of a silly statement.

Here is how silly at the moment: the highest A10 team on KenPom tonight is VCU at 56.

6 of the 10 Big East teams are rated higher.

3 of the 12 American teams are rated higher.

The American is P7. The Big East is better, the A10 is worse (even if you disregard Nova).

The Big East is nothing. It's not a football conference. "Power/Group of" is not a basketball designation.

Heck an argument can be made that it's not a collegiate sports designation. It's a money designation. It just so happens the money is based on the perception provided by football and the othe sports, including basketball, are a beneficiary.

 

[whaler11]

The Big East is nothing. It's not a football conference. "Power/Group of" is not a basketball designation.

Heck an argument can be made that it's not a collegiate sports designation. It's a money designation. It just so happens the money is based on the perception provided by football and the othe sports, including basketball, are a beneficiary.

It’s an official designation of the autonomous conferences.

It’s why ‘p6’ is so sad to watch.

Board adopts new Division I structure

 

[Husky25]

It’s an official designation of the autonomous conferences.

It’s why ‘p6’ is so sad to watch.

Board adopts new Division I structure

When you wade through all the legal crap, P5/G5 came about because of football.

 

[whaler11]

When you wade through all the legal crap, P5/G5 came about because of football.

Of course but it’s a real designation.