Is Iowa at Indiana Threadworthy?

[visitingcock]

I don't know where those '3 or 4' disappeared to, LwrcasefaN, but we'll agree to disagree here. I hope you watch more of Iowa's games. If you do, you'll more understand my points.

What if someone doesn't AGREE to disagree - but continues to disagree without agreement?

HMMMMMM.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I don't know where those '3 or 4' disappeared to, LwrcasefaN, but we'll agree to disagree here. I hope you watch more of Iowa's games. If you do, you'll more understand my points.

I get your points. And while we mostly discussed Clark, I'm looking at it from the overall effect on Iowa's offense. If I were playing Iowa I would actually prefer she take those 3s...even if fans find them exciting. They can throw a dagger into the mind of the opponent when she hits and they can inject a lot of energy into Iowa. But when you miss...there's the opposite effect. In a tight game, I definitely want the higher percentage shots. Especially since she really excels at it. And it's not just Clark and Iowa.

The TN/Mississippi game the other night gave me the same feeling. Everyone knew the ball was going into Rickea Jackson at the end. They passed it anyway despite her being triple-teamed. Meanwhile, and not just at the end of the game, Sarah Pucket is wide open jumping up and down begging for the ball. You could see the disappointment on her face and her energy just fall off a cliff.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

Good post.
I look at Caitlin Clark as high-volume possession, whether that be ball-handling, passing, shooting. Heck, she's a darn good rebounder as well. Shooting-wise, you might be thinking of Kelsey Mitchell or Arike (from my alma mater), but who she reminds me if Sabrina Ionescu: she'll do whatever it takes on any given night to bring it home.

I agree with you that Clark is much more like Ionescu than Arike or Mitchell, but all of them have at some point been singled out by posters here in some shape or form about being too ball dominant. I get it. There is some truth to it, but there is also the issue that if those players don't pull the trigger often their teams don't or didn't win. I try to not be too tough on players but know I've failed in that regard before.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

What if someone doesn't AGREE to disagree - but continues to disagree without agreement?

HMMMMMM.

Don't know. But, I agree. I think we just see many of the same things, just different ways to get there. I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Dillon77]

Just a quick addendum about your excellent post, Dillon77: if memory serves, I recall that I thought while Clark earned the MVP for that US team, I felt Sonia Citron was the team's second-best player... and she's starting show that for your Irish. Olivia Miles is the 'name' player for ND but Citron is just so good.

Citron joined Clark on the All-Tournament Team (she was still 17). Citron -- or "Soni" as she's known by her teammates and fans -- does zounds of things for the Irish, but it's her innate ability to be on the same page with Miles that reminds me of what she and Clark did, together. Who knows where that comes from? She was a star soccer player in high school as well so maybe her sense of self and space benefitted from that, as well as hoops. (BTW, I thought she and Azzi Fudd also played well with each other.)

ND, another team with a short roster to begin with, has run into a rash of injuries recently (no, UConn fans, I'm not looking for sympathy, it's just a fact) with KK Bransford limping off the court last night (and she was the sub for Dara Mabrey). Coach Ivey has admitted she's leaning hard and harder on Miles and Citron.

 

[The deacon]

Don't know. But, I agree. I think we just see many of the same things, just different ways to get there. I enjoyed the discussion.

Me, too. It's great we have women's basketball played at a such a high level by so many young women.

 

[The deacon]

Citron joined Clark on the All-Tournament Team (she was still 17). Citron -- or "Soni" as she's known by her teammates and fans -- does zounds of things for the Irish, but it's her innate ability to be on the same page with Miles that reminds me of what she and Clark did, together. Who knows where that comes from? She was a star soccer player in high school as well so maybe her sense of self and space benefitted from that, as well as hoops. (BTW, I thought she and Azzi Fudd also played well with each other.)

ND, another team with a short roster to begin with, has run into a rash of injuries recently (no, UConn fans, I'm not looking for sympathy, it's just a fact) with KK Bransford limping off the court last night (and she was the sub for Dara Mabrey). Coach Ivey has admitted she's leaning hard and harder on Miles and Citron.

Sorry to hear about Bransford.

'Back to the Future,' as has been said, that future US team I was fantasizing about with Clark, Fudd and Bueckers could do much worse than have Citron as a running mate, too.

 

[bballnut90]

And that's my point. When they were watching her 11 3-pointers (and make 3) go up...they were open. And in fact, most of them shoot the 3 better than she does. So IMO she's better off conceding more of those shots OR take 2s where she's MUCH more efficient and where she gets to the line more. This isn't to say IOWA isn't a good team I just feel that in order to get to the next level they need to make adjustments and I just don't think it's taking more contested 3s by Clark. As exciting as Clark is...she's a mid-30 % 3-point shooter. She's a mid-40 % 2-point shooter. If she must shoot that much...the shot selection has to be better. Seems kind of crazy to point to her where they could improve, but that's because she's such a large part of their offense.

The stats you quote are inaccurate. She's 37% from 3 and 54% from 2. For comparison, the highly praised Lou Lopez Senechal is 48% from 2, 47% from 3, and Siegrist is 56% from 2 and 39% from 3. Clark has extremely good numbers.

I do agree she's more efficient when she takes the ball to the basket or pulls up from mid range. When she shoots midrange in rhythm, it's automatic. And she's a great finisher at the basket. What makes her so dangerous is she can knock down 3s from anywhere within half court, beat you off the dribble and is darn good at scoring from mid range and at the basket. If I'm a coach and have a limited supporting cast like Iowa does, I have absolutely no problem with her taking that many shots. Last night she missed a couple of layups/close range shots she normally hits, and I noticed after her collision with Moore-McNeil, she was short on a couple of 3 pointers when CMM closed out on her. It looked like she wasn't as focused/confident on those shots so I'm guessing the collision probably affected her focus.

The problem for Iowa is they effectively have 2 reliable options offensively in Clark/Czinano, and if Czinano is off they're quite beatable. Looking at the rest of the team, Warnock is a great role player in that she hits her open looks, rebounds and does her job well, but she isn't someone who takes a lot of shots or creates looks. She's never shown ability to be a go-to player or someone who will regularly take 10+ shots a game. When you watch her play you remember a shot or 2 going in and then look at the box score and are surprised to see she has a great statline. Gabby Marshall is a solid defender but offers very little offensively aside from knocking down open triples, which she has struggled with this season (30% FG, 25% from 3). Kate Martin similarly doesn't offer much offensively aside from being a 3 point threat and completing open looks or layups, often created by Clark. It's a limited roster and often times Clark taking 20+ shots is the team's best option.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

The stats you quote are inaccurate. She's 37% from 3 and 54% from 2. For comparison, the highly praised Lou Lopez Senechal is 48% from 2, 47% from 3, and Siegrist is 56% from 2 and 39% from 3. Clark has extremely good numbers.

I do agree she's more efficient when she takes the ball to the basket or pulls up from mid range. When she shoots midrange in rhythm, it's automatic. And she's a great finisher at the basket. What makes her so dangerous is she can knock down 3s from anywhere within half court, beat you off the dribble and is darn good at scoring from mid range and at the basket. If I'm a coach and have a limited supporting cast like Iowa does, I have absolutely no problem with her taking that many shots. Last night she missed a couple of layups/close range shots she normally hits, and I noticed after her collision with Moore-McNeil, she was short on a couple of 3 pointers when CMM closed out on her. It looked like she wasn't as focused/confident on those shots so I'm guessing the collision probably affected her focus.

The problem for Iowa is they effectively have 2 reliable options offensively in Clark/Czinano, and if Czinano is off they're quite beatable. Looking at the rest of the team, Warnock is a great role player in that she hits her open looks, rebounds and does her job well, but she isn't someone who takes a lot of shots or creates looks. She's never shown ability to be a go-to player or someone who will regularly take 10+ shots a game. When you watch her play you remember a shot or 2 going in and then look at the box score and are surprised to see she has a great statline. Gabby Marshall is a solid defender but offers very little offensively aside from knocking down open triples, which she has struggled with this season (30% FG, 25% from 3). Kate Martin similarly doesn't offer much offensively aside from being a 3 point threat and completing open looks or layups, often created by Clark. It's a limited roster and often times Clark taking 20+ shots is the team's best option.

These stats are moving targets. Lately, she has put up some big numbers. Lately. In the past few weeks, when I checked...she wasn't at 37% (and I don't consider that extremely good), and at least 3 other players were better. I'm not a numbers-only person. The point is she's significantly better from 2 (we agree on that)...so take more twos. She's no better or worse than the other 3 point shooters so let them take more...for 2 reasons. You just can't have spectators on your offense at the top level of competition. An uncontested 3 is a better shot than a 3/4 court 3 (unless your name is Steph Curry) and it would take some of the pressure off herself because the defense wouldn't cheat so much. There are many teams with two great offensive players, but can't recall many who cut down nets in March/April. And you yourself said...two others can knock down triples so keep the defense honest and give them a few more looks. Maybe they miss, but in the bigger picture...you have to cover them. And I would be okay with Clark taking 20 shots...just as long as 10 aren't 3s.

 

[Geew1992]

Weren't there people saying IU is a fraud?? And shouldn't be the #2 team in the country?

 

[The deacon]

The stats you quote are inaccurate. She's 37% from 3 and 54% from 2. For comparison, the highly praised Lou Lopez Senechal is 48% from 2, 47% from 3, and Siegrist is 56% from 2 and 39% from 3. Clark has extremely good numbers.

I do agree she's more efficient when she takes the ball to the basket or pulls up from mid range. When she shoots midrange in rhythm, it's automatic. And she's a great finisher at the basket. What makes her so dangerous is she can knock down 3s from anywhere within half court, beat you off the dribble and is darn good at scoring from mid range and at the basket. If I'm a coach and have a limited supporting cast like Iowa does, I have absolutely no problem with her taking that many shots. Last night she missed a couple of layups/close range shots she normally hits, and I noticed after her collision with Moore-McNeil, she was short on a couple of 3 pointers when CMM closed out on her. It looked like she wasn't as focused/confident on those shots so I'm guessing the collision probably affected her focus.

The problem for Iowa is they effectively have 2 reliable options offensively in Clark/Czinano, and if Czinano is off they're quite beatable. Looking at the rest of the team, Warnock is a great role player in that she hits her open looks, rebounds and does her job well, but she isn't someone who takes a lot of shots or creates looks. She's never shown ability to be a go-to player or someone who will regularly take 10+ shots a game. When you watch her play you remember a shot or 2 going in and then look at the box score and are surprised to see she has a great statline. Gabby Marshall is a solid defender but offers very little offensively aside from knocking down open triples, which she has struggled with this season (30% FG, 25% from 3). Kate Martin similarly doesn't offer much offensively aside from being a 3 point threat and completing open looks or layups, often created by Clark. It's a limited roster and often times Clark taking 20+ shots is the team's best option.

I wish I could have said it this well. I've tried and tried on various threads, probably to the dismay of some BYers. Whatever the case, ballnut90, you've explained Iowa's offense and Caitlin Clark's role in it very well. Thank you.

Sadly, even at that, I see LwrcasefaN has again interpreted numbers to support his case. I just wish he/she could produce the names of Iowa's rotation players who shoot better from three than Caitlin. Oh, well..

 

[cancontent]

I agree. Though folks thought Nika was primarily a defensive player before this year. Maybe Gabbie doesn't have the same competitive fire Nika does. But whoever it is, we had these same conversations two years ago when Geno decided to move Paige "off the ball." It's a calculation, but it's based on his vision of the team and the game. Interestingly, last year, when Paige played, she was often at the point again.

Also agree about Martin's 15 minutes. But for that, the 2nd and 3rd quarters wouldn't have been nearly as competitive. This is also why I think a healthy UConn beats IU again this year. Now let's hope we're healthy enough to watch what promises to be a great game.


Also agree with this assessment. Gulbe was a solid partner to Holmes and I was worried they'd be diminished by her departure. But it seems to have inspired Holmes to up her game even further. They may be better without Gulbe than they were with her. I'm not sure what to make of the rest of the team. Garzon looks like a find, and Parrish and Scalia seem like good contributors. But last years group was a well-oiled machine, and they just don't feel like that to me... yet.

Disagree on this. Last year's squad struggled against Iowa, losing all three of their games. Moore-McNeil is much improved with Parrish and Scalia bringing a more consistent 3-point threat in comparison in my opinion. They're also have more length at the guard position as well which makes passing lanes harder for Iowa.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Disagree on this. Last year's squad struggled against Iowa, losing all three of their games. Moore-McNeil is much improved with Parrish and Scalia bringing a more consistent 3-point threat in comparison in my opinion. They're also have more length at the guard position as well which makes passing lanes harder for Iowa.

Indiana looked composed and their offensive movement was very fluid. I was impressed.

 

[cancontent]

Weren't there people saying IU is a fraud?? And shouldn't be the #2 team in the country?

I haven't noticed that myself. I've heard that being said more in regards to OSU personally.

The impression I got from posters earlier in the season was that they're good, but wouldn't be able to compete against teams like Tennessee and UNC who were part of their non-conference schedule. So much for that .

 

[npignatjr]

Was a fun game. Another observation the holding, grabbing that UConn went through against SC was not at this game, not even when Clark was off the ball and working to get open.

 

[visitingcock]

325,000 viewers on the Big Ten Network!

Outstanding!

 

[Cornell Lt]

Was a fun game. Another observation the holding, grabbing that UConn went through against SC was not at this game, not even when Clark was off the ball and working to get open.

Very true but Catlin did her best to make it look like a lot of contact. I did notice quite a large brace type thing on Catlin's ankle. Is that normal for her or is she nursing an injury ??

 

[cancontent]

Was a fun game. Another observation the holding, grabbing that UConn went through against SC was not at this game, not even when Clark was off the ball and working to get open.

Very true but Catlin did her best to make it look like a lot of contact. I did notice quite a large brace type thing on Catlin's ankle. Is that normal for her or is she nursing an injury ??

Iowa fans don't see it that way it seems. There are some who believe Holmes got away with a lot and the foul calls were out of sync. Same for claims that Clark was not getting the calls she deserved.

Personally, not sure. Holmes did a good job making it tough to get passes to Czinano. I was impressed with her footwork which forced Czinano to move from her spot more than she's used to.

Regarding Clark, refs have been giving players the benefit of the doubt when it comes to contact. She's not the only one getting these calls. There have been some Michigan games where it looks like Brown does the same. There are a lot of examples of this in NCAAW. Until or if it ever gets addressed, this will always be a complaint regardless which team you root for.