Is Griner best ever center? Geno responds.... | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Is Griner best ever center? Geno responds....

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I'll say this: two of the best ever. BG had a bigger overall impact on offense and defense, but Charles has one more title, although with the assistance of Maya, who is one of the best to ever play WBB. Sims was a tremendous college player, but obviously not on Maya's level.
 
Which combo would you choose based on college level talent? Griner/DT or Charles/Maya?
 
easttexastrash said:
Which combo would you choose based on college level talent? Griner/DT or Charles/Maya?
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Not really a fair choice as I would choose DT and ______ over any other player and ______ in college where you fill the blanks with any combination of two players from quite a list: Griner, Charles, Fowles, Paris, Leslie, and probably others like Moore, Parker, EDD. Except for that flame out against ND, Diana's fire was such that she refuses to lose and she makes whoever she plays with burn with that same fire.
There are other players that exhibit a similar fire including Moore, but it just never quite reaches the DT level.
I don't think I have ever seen quite such a late game display as the Uconn win against TX in the 2003 FF.
 
UcMiami said:
Not really a fair choice as I would choose DT and ______ over any other player and ______ in college where you fill the blanks with any combination of two players from quite a list: Griner, Charles, Fowles, Paris, Leslie, and probably others like Moore, Parker, EDD. Except for that flame out against ND, Diana's fire was such that she refuses to lose and she makes whoever she plays with burn with that same fire.
There are other players that exhibit a similar fire including Moore, but it just never quite reaches the DT level.
I don't think I have ever seen quite such a late game display as the Uconn win against TX in the 2003 FF.
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Agree about DT. Any top player combined with DT has the advantage.
 
pap49cba said:
Would you say Brittney Griner is one of the best centers women’s basketball has ever seen?

Where I come from, you’re defined as the best ever by how much you win
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This drives me nuts. It's the worst with pitchers but it happens, clearly, with athletes in other sports. Athletes in team sports have teammates. One player can only do so much.

A quarterback could be the greatest quarterback of all time but he needs someone to pass to. A pitcher could be Pedro Martinez + Sandy Koufax but still only win 10 games a year if his team's offense stinks.

A basketball player could literally be Michael Jordan and score 37 ppg and still have his team go two games under .500.

So, in comparing Tina Charles won-loss record while at UConn, one has to keep in mind that she had Maya Moore as a teammate. Did Britney Griner have anyone like Maya Moore as a teammate?

(And, yes, this means that Wilt was a better center than Russell, which is FINE. Russell was obviously no slouch but Wilt was AMAZING.)

Counting rings leads you to the ridiculous like: "Well, Maria Conlon has three, so, she must be miles better than Jen." (Yes, I have heard people assert this very thing.)
 
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pap49cba said:
Would you say Brittney Griner is one of the best centers women’s basketball has ever seen?

Where I come from, you’re defined as the best ever by how much you win, not how many points you score or how many rebounds you get, or whatever. Brittney heard that in college for four years, ‘you’re the best ever, best ever, best ever,’ and they won one national championship. There have been other people that have won, Diana (Taurasi), two, three. And now she’s won her first WNBA championship in just her second year and this is her first opportunity on the world stage to win a World Championship. So, as Brittney’s career moves on and she impacts teams and impacts their ability to win, then we’ll be able to look back and say, ‘Wow.’ But sometimes I think we -- coaches, fans, media, everybody -- we see somebody who’s so unique, who does things that maybe no one else has ever done and we’re quick to jump to, ‘Wow, she’s the greatest ever.’ It’s probably not fair to her. So, I always like to wait and see. And then when they’re finished, you look back and say, ‘Hmm, maybe she was the best ever.’

LINK
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Welcome to Geno's world Brittney. He's a master motivator.


@ Wally East: "So, in comparing Tina Charles won-loss record while at UConn, one has to keep in mind that she had Maya Moore as a teammate. Did Britney Griner have anyone like Maya Moore as a teammate?"

Um I hear that that Odessey Sims kid might be okay.
 
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CL82 said:
@ Wally East: "So, in comparing Tina Charles won-loss record while at UConn, one has to keep in mind that she had Maya Moore as a teammate. Did Britney Griner have anyone like Maya Moore as a teammate?"

Um I hear that that Odessey Sims kid might be okay.
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Yup, she's pretty good. She's not Maya. She's closer to Bria.
 
I hear that Jackie Stiles was not very good. Sure, she has the most points scored in NCAA history, but does she have a title?
 
easttexastrash said:
I hear that Jackie Stiles was not very good. Sure, she has the most points scored in NCAA history, but does she have a title?
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Yup, same with Ted Williams. No titles for him.
 
Wally East said:
Yup, same with Ted Williams. No titles for him.
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And EDD never had a title. She could not bring her teammates to new heights, I assume.

It's a team sport...you can be one of the best to ever play the game without winning a single title. And the coach also has a little something to do with the success.
 
Wally East said:
Yup, she's pretty good. She's not Maya. She's closer to Bria.
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One more time - Maya is a forward, not a guard, so she could only impact Tina only so much. Maya could draw defenders to a certain, sure, but Tina usually had 2-3 defenders draped on her when she got the ball anyway. And she still produced.

I am NOT knocking Brittany at all but would like to point out that she's playing alongside Diana Taurasi right now. Does that mean we should assume her stats are inflated because she's playing next to one of the all time greats? Goofy logic.
 
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HuskyNan said:
One more time - Maya is a forward, not a guard, so she could only impact Tina only so much. Maya could draw defenders to a certain, sure, but Tina usually had 2-3 defenders draped on her when she got the ball anyway. And she still produced.

I am NOT knocking Brittany at all but would like to point out that she's playing alongside Diana Taurasi right now. Does that mean we should assume her stats are inflated because she's playing next to one of the all time greats? Goofy logic.
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Brittney's individual stats would be better if she did not play with DT, as DT is such a great scorer and takes more shots, but her success would not be the same.

Tina was a better rebounder but BG was a better defender.
 
Wally East said:
Yup, she's pretty good. She's not Maya. She's closer to Bria.
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Well based on the stats that you are so high on - Sims was a lot closer to Maya than Bria:
Sims - 2533 pts, Maya 3036, Bria 1994
Sims - 745 assts, Maya 554, Bria 559
Sims - 479 rbds, Maya 1276, Bria 550
Just as an example.

Edited to correct points for Sims - Baylor site is very confusing!!!
 
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UcMiami said:
Well based on the stats that you are so high on - Sims was a lot closer to Maya than Bria:
Sims - 3194 pts, Maya 3036, Bria 1994
Sims - 745 assts, Maya 554, Bria 559
Sims - 479 rbds, Maya 1276, Bria 550
Just as an example.
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I am not sure Sims scored that many points. BG, maybe.
 
HuskyNan said:
One more time - Maya is a forward, not a guard, so she could only impact Tina only so much. Maya could draw defenders to a certain, sure, but Tina usually had 2-3 defenders draped on her when she got the ball anyway. And she still produced.
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Oh, Maya was a forward and not a guard? You don't say? :D

My point was that Maya was on the team and greatly elevated the team's performance and record not that she directly impacted Tina's performance.
 
UcMiami said:
Well based on the stats that you are so high on - Sims was a lot closer to Maya than Bria:
Sims - 2533 pts, Maya 3036, Bria 1994
Sims - 745 assts, Maya 554, Bria 559
Sims - 479 rbds, Maya 1276, Bria 550
Just as an example.

Edited to correct points for Sims - Baylor site is very confusing!!!
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Those stats make her seem halfway between the two, give or take, although, and I don't care enough to look it up, per game averages would be better.
 
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Those stats make her seems much better than Bria. And I love Bria, but Sims was a better collegiate player and a better pro.
 
Tolo started really well against BG but has missed a couple bunnies since she went out!
 
I think now you can answer the original question as an emphatic "no". And this is not to take anything away from Brit, but she was simply overwhelmed by the stronger, more experienced Aussie centers, and she wasn't even facing Cambage. Griner even picked up an offensive foul while the ball was completely at the other end of the court as she was trying to establish her position.

Tina, Candace Dupree and Nneka all played better than Griner - on both offense and defense. Brit is simply not strong enough to keep elite centers out of the paint and was repeatedly pushed around and scored against. She did have a couple of nice defensive plays and one monster block, but due to foul trouble that she was incapable of managing, she could not stay on the court.

Again, I love Brit. She has a long and most likely very illustrious career ahead of her on Team USA and in her career wherever she plays. But can we please stop with the "best ever"? It's a disservice to her. She will grow into her game and be as good as she can be!

For the record, Brit has a long career in front of her. There were many great centers to come before her and I'm sure some great ones will come after as well. She's an immensely likable young lady who is easy to root for. I'm ok with saying she's "really good" and has a chance to be great.
 
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ericsandiego said:
I think now you can answer the original question as an emphatic "no". And this is not to take anything away from Brit, but she was simply overwhelmed by the stronger, more experienced Aussie centers, and she wasn't even facing Cambage. Griner even picked up an offensive foul while the ball was completely at the other end of the court as she was trying to establish her position.

Tina, Candace Dupree and Nneka all played better than Griner - on both offense and defense. Brit is simply not strong enough to keep elite centers out of the paint and was repeatedly pushed around and scored against. She did have a couple of nice defensive plays and one monster block, but due to foul trouble that she was incapable of managing, she could not stay on the court.

Again, I love Brit. She has a long and most likely very illustrious career ahead of her on Team USA and in her career wherever she plays. But can we please stop with the "best ever"? It's a disservice to her. She will grow into her game and be as good as she can be!

For the record, Brit has a long career in front of her. There were many great centers to come before her and I'm sure some great ones will come after as well. She's an immensely likable young lady who is easy to root for. I'm ok with saying she's "really good" and has a chance to be great.
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Eric - I think this is a little unfair - Griner had a terrible game in her first international competition semi-final. I am sure that Spain is not looking forward to Griner atoning for her bad performance. And during the WNBA she seems to more than hold her own against some of the best centers in the world and I do not think anyone including Sylvia Fowles was questioning her strength!
This is an example of why experience on National teams is so important to the program's continued success - Bird is certainly not the best point guard in the world anymore in league play, but she is very experienced and on the national team she may still retain that title.
 
This is kinda funny. Until today, as soon as she got over to Turkey Griner has been so awesome that she has us asking, "Best center ever?" Even all the player interviews after yesterday's game were full of , "Brittney this", "They couldn't deal with Brittney", etc. She has a down game today and now she's dogmeat. We didn't feel the same about DT and Maya the other day when they went a combined 4 for 23 or whatever. They have had a chance to prove themselves for many years and we know what they're made of. Griner is young and she will have that same chance. IMO, so far so good...
 
ericsandiego said:
I think now you can answer the original question as an emphatic "no". And this is not to take anything away from Brit, but she was simply overwhelmed by the stronger, more experienced Aussie centers, and she wasn't even facing Cambage. Griner even picked up an offensive foul while the ball was completely at the other end of the court as she was trying to establish her position.

Tina, Candace Dupree and Nneka all played better than Griner - on both offense and defense. Brit is simply not strong enough to keep elite centers out of the paint and was repeatedly pushed around and scored against. She did have a couple of nice defensive plays and one monster block, but due to foul trouble that she was incapable of managing, she could not stay on the court.

Again, I love Brit. She has a long and most likely very illustrious career ahead of her on Team USA and in her career wherever she plays. But can we please stop with the "best ever"? It's a disservice to her. She will grow into her game and be as good as she can be!

For the record, Brit has a long career in front of her. There were many great centers to come before her and I'm sure some great ones will come after as well. She's an immensely likable young lady who is easy to root for. I'm ok with saying she's "really good" and has a chance to be great.
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One bad game proves nothing. DT and Maya went 4-23 in the exhibition loss to France. Does that make them horrible shooters and no longer considered two of the best in the world?
 
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easttexastrash said:
One bad game proves nothing. DT and Maya went 4-23 in the exhibition loss to France. Does that make them horrible shooters and no longer considered two of the best in the world?
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My point was she was pushed all over the court and completely overwhelmed. It had zero to do with a poor shooting night. She got no shots because she was not capable of getting any position in the post vs. the better Australian centers. Simple as that.

She has the potential to be really really good. She already has grown in leaps and bounds in the league. But greatest ever? way way too soon to say that. It's silly really.

As Geno said, she's unique due to her size. She has a chance to be special when her career is near done and it's looked back on. But she's only 2 years out of college and in the pros. It's like looking at Diamond Deshields and saying she's the greatest college player ever. Really? Let's wait and see how things pan. Let's see how Brit develops. She may well end up being the greatest center ever, and if she earns a moniker like that in the years to come, she will certainly deserve it, but it's hardly a criticism of her to say that at 24 or so years old she's certainly not the best ever.
 
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I appreciate that people want to ignore what Geno was saying, but it's kinda silly to do so. He did NOT say that winning college championships made you great. He said look back at the END of the career and then assess.

Griner has great talent and seems to be a quick learner. In today's game, Australia deliberately targeted her, hoping to get her into foul trouble. And they succeeded. Said BG after the game about what she learned:

Play thorough the calls. You can complain all you want to the refs, it’s not going to do anything, so just play through it, try to adjust, play your game. Sometimes it just doesn’t go your way.

Each level it gets tougher. When I got to the league last season it was a rude awakening. This season I definitely did better. I knew what I needed to work on. Now playing on the world stage, it just goes up in intensity, it goes up in what’s expected from you every day. It’s just going to make me better. I’m glad I do have this learning curve. I’m glad I am young so I can be around a lot longer.
 
This quote from Geno says a lot, about BG's struggles last night, Tina stepping up and why Nneka played a lot of key minutes last night. A big difference between BG and Tina last night was experience on the world championship stage.

Tonight we kind of had an idea of how physical Australia was going to be with Brittney, and this is her first time through this. So, I’m not sure she’s had enough experience playing against these kinds of players on a regular basis, and Tina has. So, tonight you saw the experience that Tina has, and she played a lot of minutes, too. She played 31 minutes. Tina’s doing a lot of little things that maybe don’t even show on the boxscore. Some of the little things that she’s doing, whether it’s getting through a screen or making a pass to somebody, tipping the ball, kind of like Nneka (Ogwumike). Sometimes these guys do things that don’t end up big on the stat sheet, but they keep possessions alive, they get big buckets when the other guys are making a run. I’m not surprised, but I couldn’t be happier for Tina.
 
Is Griner the best center ever? Nope. She has the potential to get there but she is not the best center ever. To me, Lisa Leslie and Janice Lawrence Braxton were better than Brit. We all know Lisa Leslie's resume. Janice was on Lisa's level. She was unstoppable. Her offensive game, especially as a traditional post player, was fluid. The lady was equally solid on the defensive end. She, along with other great Louisiana Tech legends, was the reason why LA Tech was so good during the early part of the 1980s.
 
Griner still does not seem to understand that low post D is largely played with foot movement and leg strength. She relies on her athleticism to recover using her length but that has risks.
 
ericsandiego said:
My point was she was pushed all over the court and completely overwhelmed. It had zero to do with a poor shooting night. She got no shots because she was not capable of getting any position in the post vs. the better Australian centers. Simple as that.

She has the potential to be really really good. She already has grown in leaps and bounds in the league. But greatest ever? way way too soon to say that. It's silly really.

As Geno said, she's unique due to her size. She has a chance to be special when her career is near done and it's looked back on. But she's only 2 years out of college and in the pros. It's like looking at Diamond Deshields and saying she's the greatest college player ever. Really? Let's wait and see how things pan. Let's see how Brit develops. She may well end up being the greatest center ever, and if she earns a moniker like that in the years to come, she will certainly deserve it, but it's hardly a criticism of her to say that at 24 or so years old she's certainly not the best ever.
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What is amazing is that she is already in the GOAT conversation at the age of 23. I'll take it.
 
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