Irish fan on why UConn belongs in the ACC

[Yawkey Way]

, real ND fans don't debase themselves discussing conference strength. .

Re. ND,... its neat to know that the long and lengthy journey of ND football' " independence " has now officially come to an end. Swofford and the ACC undeniably accomplished this much anyway.

 

[btstimpy]

Unfortunately none of that really matters. We've got winning records against Pitt and Saracuse in football.

It does when you call the winning record holder Second Fiddle like Nicky was trying to do, especially when the comparison isn't even close over a 35 year period. And it does regarding UConn to have winning records and continuing to do well in football.

This recent addition of Syracuse is the third time that the ACC has tried to add Syracuse. The First Time Jake Crouthamel wanted to join as a football only and stay in the Big East for basketball. The ACC said no. The Second Tim Jake Crouthamel said Yes, and then the whole debacle with Virginia Tech and UNC/Duke getting cold feet to allow Virginia Tech in. This last time was the third time. The ACC has been determined to add Syracuse for 30 plus years. They are finally here.

The other school that the ACC has been trying to add for 30 years is Notre Dame. Pittsburgh just happens to have played Notre Dame in football 69 times. Pittsburgh helped to make it easier for Notre Dame to join the ACC, and Pitt football and basketball are good enough.

None of this reflects negatively in any way on Connecticut.

 

[btstimpy]

Isn't that picture of Jacksonville?

I glanced at it. It might be. Boston College and Virginia Tech played in both stadiums with bad attendance. I think Tampa was actually worse.

 

[Yawkey Way]

Very much in reality and reality in Miami. In 2009, when Florida played Oklahoma in Miami with Tim Tebow, Florida stayed at the Diplomat in Hollywood. Hardly a Gator fan to be found in South Beach the whole week. They did drive down to sell out the Stadium though.

Tim Tebow has love fests everywhere he goes as a NFL player. He did well in Denver, didn't get a chance at the Jets, and he flopped at New England. Don't know where he is now. SEC Network I think.

I know from reading your posts here that you have a love for Miami over Florida, but Florida is a whole 'nuther step up in college sports than Miami, including football. Yes, I do know their records head to head, but Florida from the SEC is higher up on the college football pecking order than Miami is these days. I don't think you'd find many fans, sportwriters, network executives, etc from outside the ACC, thinking that Miami football is on the same plain as Florida is. If you ask any TV network exec. who he'd want for his investment buck, he'd take Florida in a heartbeat over Miami.

 

[TerryD]

Re. ND,... its neat to know that the long and lengthy journey of ND football' " independence " has now officially come to an end. Swofford and the ACC undeniably accomplished this much anyway.

Well, to the degree of five games per year, perhaps it can be seen as such.

Funny, when fans talk ACC football and want to denigrate the conference, they will never concede that ND is a member.

They say "ND merely has a scheduling agreement with the ACC, nothing more." It can't work both ways.

ND traditionally played three games a year against the Big Ten for decades, so it is a two game increase.

Those three games per year with the Big Ten didn't make ND independence "come to an end".

Five games with ACC schools does not, either.

ND still independently has the NBC contract, will qualify (or not) for the playoffs and the Orange Bowl as an independent, and will still schedule seven games a year as an independent.

ND takes no football money from the ACC, cannot play in the ACC championship game and will have no "ACC" logos on the field at ND Stadium or on their uniforms.

 

[btstimpy]

I know from reading your posts here that you have a love for Miami over Florida, but Florida is a whole 'nuther step up in college sports than Miami, including football. Yes, I do know their records head to head, but Florida from the SEC is higher up on the college football pecking order than Miami is these days. I don't think you'd find many fans, sportwriters, network executives, etc from outside the ACC, thinking that Miami football is on the same plain as Florida is. If you ask any TV network exec. who he'd want for his investment buck, he'd take Florida in a heartbeat over Miami.

ESPN has had a love fest for SEC football. They won 7 championship games in a row and earned it. Urban Mayer won 2 at Florida in 2007 and 2009, so they are more Fresh than Miami's in 2000. Florida was thought of ahead of Florida State a year or two ago too. Not any more. Miami has been under the cloud of sanctions for 3 years. Now that is gone. Miami is improving. And if you think Will Muschamp will be riding through the SEC like a knight in shining armor this season, think again. He might not keep his job.

You obviously don't listen to much college sports talk. Sirius XM is a good place to listen. What people talk about Florida is NO Offense, and they talk about and write about their getting crushed by Louisville in the Sugar Bowl and their not even making a bowl in 2013 after getting beat by Georgia Southern at home from the FCS. Now if you are a TV executive that wants to televise that crap, go ahead. Miami didn't help itself by getting crushed by that same Louisville team I realize, but at least Louisville will be ACC.

 

[BlueMAB]

Other than the fact UConn was set to be added over Pitt until BCU nixed it, you have a point.

 

[MSNDfan]

Other than the fact UConn was set to be added over Pitt until BCU nixed it, you have a point.

I don't believe UConn was set to get the ACC offer until BC began piping up. Pitt is an old and important football rival for us, and the ACC clearly has been working to get us into the ACC fold for at least a decade. Taking Pitt would help the ACC woo us.

It's no shot at UConn from either the ACC or ND. It is just what is based on how things developed over decades while UConn did not play major college football.

 

[Yawkey Way]

.[/quote]

Well, to the degree of five games per year, perhaps it can be seen as such.

Funny, when fans talk ACC football and want to denigrate the conference, they will never concede that ND is a member.

.

I think ND is a member of the ACC... its certainly not an " independent " in football anymore. Not when just about half the football future schedules are tied up by mutual agreement between itself and a football league... and all its other sports at the school are in that same conference as well. The ACC deal between ND and the ACC, had benefits to each party. ND got its TV contracts protected , while the ACC utilized the ND brand to cut themselves a good contract deal that mollified both FSU and Clemson from going anywhere. Coupled with the GOR provision enacted in the ACC, the ACC solidified themselves from any further poaching, and just as importantly ,from future actual defections. ND helped as an unwitting participant to the ACC goal of establishing its league's stability within the P5 realignments.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Five games with ACC schools does not, either.

What you have there is a girlfriend that's going to want a ring someday.

 

[MSNDfan]

What you wrote directly contradicts everything that's been printed. You make no sense.

What makes no sense is to believe that BC has anything close to the power many UConn fans think. What makes no sense is that Swofford would pursue ND and not add Pitt.

Do you understand what it took to get us to make a deal in which we allow the ACC to schedule 5 football games per year for us? If you do, you know that it would have required the ACC expanding to 14 with the then BE team that we most want to play in football. And that is Pitt.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

Well, to the degree of five games per year, perhaps it can be seen as such.

Funny, when fans talk ACC football and want to denigrate the conference, they will never concede that ND is a member.

They say "ND merely has a scheduling agreement with the ACC, nothing more." It can't work both ways.

ND traditionally played three games a year against the Big Ten for decades, so it is a two game increase.

Those three games per year with the Big Ten didn't make ND independence "come to an end".

Five games with ACC schools does not, either.

ND still independently has the NBC contract, will qualifie (or not) for the playoffs and the Orange Bowl as an independent, and will still schedule seven games a year as an independent.

ND takes no football money from the ACC, cannot play in the ACC championship game and will have no "ACC" logos on the field at ND Stadium or on their uniforms.

We let the camel's nose in the tent just like the body politic finally allowed socialized medicine a foothold in Obamacare after decades of resisting invasions. The fanbase and donating alumni are going to have to be super duper vigilant for attempts to move the rest of ND full ACC membership. Watch out for statements from Savvy Jack about how "hard it is to schedule" or a fluffy "playoff committee disadvantage" that look like pretexts for doing what the non-football faction wants.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

I'd like to learn more about the ACC conspiracy theory in truth. ACC schools started appearing on our schedule even before Nebraska moved and I'd like to know when the move from Big East to ACC was first proposed.

btw Pitt has been a traditional rival to ND for a long time albeit a secondary one.

 

[upstater]

I'd like to learn more about the ACC conspiracy theory in truth. ACC schools started appearing on our schedule even before Nebraska moved and I'd like to know when the move from Big East to ACC was first proposed.

btw Pitt has been a traditional rival to ND for a long time albeit a secondary one.

Corrigan was talking about it concurrently with the Pitt/Cuse adds. There was a long article on the BC fan website about Gene DeFillippo's interview w/ Blaudschun and how it contained not one poison pill but two. Apparently, the Pitt Pres. and the ACC offices were livid in particular with how Gene D. mentioned that it was ESPN who was orchestrating the movements. At the time there were articles about a big move, about ND and UConn moving to the ACC together just weeks after Cuse and Pitt were added. Gene D. and BC smartly put a halt to it all as everyone feared what the BE would do in relation to ESPN, etc.

http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2011/september/20/more-acc-expansion-notre-dame-and-uconn

http://nypost.com/2011/09/19/rutgers-uconn-looking-for-new-league/

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/te...ommissioner-corrigan-20111026,0,7637373.story

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/te...otre-dame-membership-20111019,0,4211491.story

 

[btstimpy]

You're making stuff up now. The whole story is in print. In fact, before the story even came out, a Villanova guy working in the BE offices reported Cuse and UConn were going. Later we learned why Pitt was substituted, and if you don't think these schools have the power to blackball, you're crazy. When a school says someone is encroaching on their territory (as BC's AD made the argument) no one is going to damage someone else's interests for fear of the same happening to them. It's the same thing with South Carolina and Clemson. SC is just not going to let Clemson in. Pitt stinks in football anyway, they are really really bad. Putrid. It makes sense that ND wants to play them badly.

What Gene DeFilippo said is true. He didn't want to add UConn because he didn't want another team in New England. The Tobacco Road basketball schools wanted UConn, and Duke chaired the Council of Presidents. The Big XII was flirting with Pittsburgh. ESPN was telling the ACC to take Pittsburgh and West Virginia according to some sources. That wasn't going to happen because there was a 35 year quest to get Syracuse. IMO they could have brought in everybody they wanted, but the ESPN contract gets reopened at just adding 2, and its easier to extract more with small steps than with Big Ones.

There has been this ulterior motive of courting Notre Dame by the ACC all along. It goes back to Gene Corrigan, who was the ACC Comissioner at one time and also the AD at Notre Dame and UVA in his career. Kevin White, AD at Duke, wants Notre Dame - former AD at Notre Dame. Nathan Hatch, President of Wake Forest - former Provost at Notre Dame. Mary Anne Fox, Former Chancellor of NC State, BS - Chemistry, Notre Dame & Notre Dame Trustee. And there are several more.

The additions of Boston College and Pittsburgh were made in part to make the ACC more attractive to Notre Dame football. It wasn't the ONLY reason, but it was a secondary reason. And there is a part of the league heavily considering adding the US Naval Academy too. Notre Dame football likes them. The problem there is while Navy would be nice for Notre Dame football, the ACC runs 25 sports including Basketball. Navy is not a fit for basketball. The ACC is 5/8 of the way there.

We know that there is still support for UConn in much of the conference. Perhaps if the NCAA lets the ACC have flexibility with the Championship Game, it could open an opportunity to just add one. ESPN would have to pay more though, or it would have to help launch a network in new areas.

 

[SAMCRO]

Jacksonville didn't support the game either unless Florida State was playing. Tampa was worse than Jacksonville. The ACC Championship Game just didn't work in Florida, so it has been moved to Charlotte, and it does much better.

Ya, that's what I said.

 

[btstimpy]

I'd like to learn more about the ACC conspiracy theory in truth. ACC schools started appearing on our schedule even before Nebraska moved and I'd like to know when the move from Big East to ACC was first proposed.

btw Pitt has been a traditional rival to ND for a long time albeit a secondary one.

Some other secondary ones are Boston College, Georgia Tech, and Miami. The primary ones are USC, Stanford, and Navy. The thought was that Boston College, Georgia Tech, Pittsburgh, and Miami would be satisfactory as substitutes for Michigan, Michigan State, and Purdue. These Big Ten ones would become secondary and more infrequent. And this is taking place.

 

[btstimpy]

Corrigan was talking about it concurrently with the Pitt/Cuse adds. There was a long article on the BC fan website about Gene DeFillippo's interview w/ Blaudschun and how it contained not one poison pill but two. Apparently, the Pitt Pres. and the ACC offices were livid in particular with how Gene D. mentioned that it was ESPN who was orchestrating the movements. At the time there were articles about a big move, about ND and UConn moving to the ACC together just weeks after Cuse and Pitt were added. Gene D. and BC smartly put a halt to it all as everyone feared what the BE would do in relation to ESPN, etc.

http://www.thekeyplay.com/content/2011/september/20/more-acc-expansion-notre-dame-and-uconn

http://nypost.com/2011/09/19/rutgers-uconn-looking-for-new-league/

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/te...ommissioner-corrigan-20111026,0,7637373.story

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/te...otre-dame-membership-20111019,0,4211491.story

I think that the ACC would have added Notre Dame and UConn at that time pretty easily. And Notre Dame was considering the ACC. That's obvious. They joined. But they just could not give up the football independence completely. So ND and the ACC went round and round on this for another year, and we ended up where we are at. The Maryland departure was totally unexpected, and Louisville had been on the list and not at the top, but their high pressure sales pitch during that week moved them up. It happened to fit some of the things that the Southern football schools who were nervous about the playoff system wanted, and Louisville's athletics will be fine. But we need another school still.

 

[upstater]

I think that the ACC would have added Notre Dame and UConn at that time pretty easily. And Notre Dame was considering the ACC. That's obvious. They joined. But they just could not give up the football independence completely. So ND and the ACC went round and round on this for another year, and we ended up where we are at. The Maryland departure was totally unexpected, and Louisville had been on the list and not at the top, but their high pressure sales pitch during that week moved them up. It happened to fit some of the things that the Southern football schools who were nervous about the playoff system wanted, and Louisville's athletics will be fine. But we need another school still.

Don't forget the pissing match between FSU and Tobacco Road before all this went down. A BOT member at FSU called out Tobacco Road for hoarding bball 3rd tier rights while selling football 3rd tier rights down the river. FSU was in a public skirmish with Tobacco Road in the summer prior to Maryland announcing its intention to leave. And that was the backdrop when FSU sussed out that UConn was already "penned in" (to quote Louisville's AD) and decided to use some white-out and use its muscle.

 

[MSNDfan]

I'd like to learn more about the ACC conspiracy theory in truth. ACC schools started appearing on our schedule even before Nebraska moved and I'd like to know when the move from Big East to ACC was first proposed.

btw Pitt has been a traditional rival to ND for a long time albeit a secondary one.

I would say that based on all time history, Pitt is #5 in terms of importance, behind SC, Navy, Michigan State, and Purdue. Because we get nothing in terms of reaching our national fan base that does not live in the midwest, for the future Pitt is more important than Purdue and probably Michigan State.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

Wrong. All branding is dumped into athletic budgets. Part of the licensing deals that go through the clothing companies which are affiliated with sports. There's a long article on this subject from David Hillis who looked at several athletic budgets including Texas's. That's how they do it too. It's probably because athletics is responsible for selling 90% of those branded shirts and sweaters.

I asked around. At least at Notre Dame Tshirt sales et al are not considered to be athletic revenue. Maybe the Kmart fans really do care about our fabulous business school.

 

[MSNDfan]

What Gene DeFilippo said is true. He didn't want to add UConn because he didn't want another team in New England. The Tobacco Road basketball schools wanted UConn, and Duke chaired the Council of Presidents. The Big XII was flirting with Pittsburgh. ESPN was telling the ACC to take Pittsburgh and West Virginia according to some sources. That wasn't going to happen because there was a 35 year quest to get Syracuse. IMO they could have brought in everybody they wanted, but the ESPN contract gets reopened at just adding 2, and its easier to extract more with small steps than with Big Ones.

There has been this ulterior motive of courting Notre Dame by the ACC all along. It goes back to Gene Corrigan, who was the ACC Comissioner at one time and also the AD at Notre Dame and UVA in his career. Kevin White, AD at Duke, wants Notre Dame - former AD at Notre Dame. Nathan Hatch, President of Wake Forest - former Provost at Notre Dame. Mary Anne Fox, Former Chancellor of NC State, BS - Chemistry, Notre Dame & Notre Dame Trustee. And there are several more.

The additions of Boston College and Pittsburgh were made in part to make the ACC more attractive to Notre Dame football. It wasn't the ONLY reason, but it was a secondary reason. And there is a part of the league heavily considering adding the US Naval Academy too. Notre Dame football likes them. The problem there is while Navy would be nice for Notre Dame football, the ACC runs 25 sports including Basketball. Navy is not a fit for basketball. The ACC is 5/8 of the way there.

We know that there is still support for UConn in much of the conference. Perhaps if the NCAA lets the ACC have flexibility with the Championship Game, it could open an opportunity to just add one. ESPN would have to pay more though, or it would have to help launch a network in new areas.

Corrigan left ND in 1987. He retired as ACC commissioner in 1997. By the time the ACC was expanding to 12, it was talking to ND. Swofford tried to get us to join as the 12th in that period before BC was added. The stall was not merely about choosing between BC and Syracuse. It was also about trying to make a case to us.

That case failed, but it convinced Swofford that he might get something done later.

Here is what is pertinent about all this: ND coming aboard the ACC ended all possibility of anybody leaving, but Maryland which had an athletics deficit as big as Detroit and was willing to take a leap to try to get its books balanced. If we had stayed in the BE, who knows what might have happened.

Anybody who thinks that the ACC expanded without taking a long look at which schools would best help seal the deal with ND is naive. If ND did not have the long history with Pitt in the sport that drives the bus, Pitt probably would be in the AAC now. No matter what BC said or wanted.

 

[upstater]

I asked around. At least at Notre Dame Tshirt sales et al are not considered to be athletic revenue. Maybe the Kmart fans really do care about our fabulous business school.

Who did you ask? How did they know? Did you ask the message board? ND doesn't even report a budget to the DOE. Since public schools include branding as revenue for athletics, the info is available in their gov't reporting.

Read this: http://admin.collegepublisher.com/preview/mobile/2.3382/2.4490/1.2140563

In the comments, you'll find the author write this:

Income on Trademark Licensing Operations is $8,000,000, or a little less than 0.4% of the budget. This fund is used largely for three purposes: as a subsidy to make up the shortfall in athletics income compared to athletics expenses, to build up cash reserves to protect against the $222,488,000 in intercollegiate athletics debt, and if there is anything left over, as a Presidential Discretionary Fund, to fund programs such as the new School of Undergraduate Studies.

These figures were all provided by the University of Texas at Austin.

 

[Fishy]

Corrigan left ND in 1987. He retired as ACC commissioner in 1997. By the time the ACC was expanding to 12, it was talking to ND. Swofford tried to get us to join as the 12th in that period before BC was added. The stall was not merely about choosing between BC and Syracuse. It was also about trying to make a case to us.

That case failed, but it convinced Swofford that he might get something done later.

Here is what is pertinent about all this: ND coming aboard the ACC ended all possibility of anybody leaving, but Maryland which had an athletics deficit as big as Detroit and was willing to take a leap to try to get its books balanced. If we had stayed in the BE, who knows what might have happened.

Anybody who thinks that the ACC expanded without taking a long look at which schools would best help seal the deal with ND is naive. If ND did not have the long history with Pitt in the sport that drives the bus, Pitt probably would be in the AAC now. No matter what BC said or wanted.

This is fan fiction.

 

[upstater]

Corrigan left ND in 1987. He retired as ACC commissioner in 1997. By the time the ACC was expanding to 12, it was talking to ND. Swofford tried to get us to join as the 12th in that period before BC was added. The stall was not merely about choosing between BC and Syracuse. It was also about trying to make a case to us.

That case failed, but it convinced Swofford that he might get something done later.

Here is what is pertinent about all this: ND coming aboard the ACC ended all possibility of anybody leaving, but Maryland which had an athletics deficit as big as Detroit and was willing to take a leap to try to get its books balanced. If we had stayed in the BE, who knows what might have happened.

Anybody who thinks that the ACC expanded without taking a long look at which schools would best help seal the deal with ND is naive. If ND did not have the long history with Pitt in the sport that drives the bus, Pitt probably would be in the AAC now. No matter what BC said or wanted.

You can make up your own story, but we know better. It goes against the things insiders were saying at the time, and against what insiders said in the press. It's the same thing with the Louisville add. People revise after the fact.

 

[Fishy]

You can make up your own story, but we know better. It goes against the things insiders were saying at the time, and against what insiders said in the press. It's the same thing with the Louisville add. People revise after the fact.

It's high comedy.

Adding just the taste of Notre Dame put an END to anyone leaving the conference!

Except, you know, for the team that left the conference. And then, of course, the team that tried to leave the conference before the SEC said thanks, but no thanks.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

Who did you ask? How did they know? Did you ask the message board? ND doesn't even report a budget to the DOE. Since public schools include branding as revenue for athletics, the info is available in their gov't reporting.

Read this: http://admin.collegepublisher.com/preview/mobile/2.3382/2.4490/1.2140563

In the comments, you'll find the author write this:

Well it's not mandatory that every school does it the same way, I'd imagine a Harvard sweatshirt doesn't pay a royalty to the Harvard athletic dept. But my greater point was that sports generate alumni interest. That includes T shirts, donations, attendance of events, fundraising for local scholarships etc. There is no better way of getting alumni on campus and thinking about their school than a winning football or bball team.

So feed the question right back to the athletic skeptics. You tell me, why do those bow tie perfessers lose so much money on football? Are they just stupid?

 

[NotreDameJoe]

It's high comedy.

Adding just the taste of Notre Dame put an END to anyone leaving the conference!

Except, you know, for the team that left the conference. And then, of course, the team that tried to leave the conference before the SEC said thanks, but no thanks.

It didn't end the issue of CR altogether but it sure made staying a lot sweeter. Nothing distorts a good idea like exaggerating it to an extreme.

 

[Fishy]

It didn't end the issue of CR altogether but it sure made staying a lot sweeter. Nothing distorts a good idea like exaggerating it to an extreme.

It clearly didn't because for the first time in 40-some odd years, a school left the ACC and another went to the SEC hat in hand.

I think you overestimate yourselves. But welcome to the party - that seems to be a prerequisite for a visitor to our humble home.

 

[upstater]

Well it's not mandatory that every school does it the same way, I'd imagine a Harvard sweatshirt doesn't pay a royalty to the Harvard athletic dept. But my greater point was that sports generate alumni interest. That includes T shirts, donations, attendance of events, fundraising for local scholarships etc. There is no better way of getting alumni on campus and thinking about their school than a winning football or bball team.

So feed the question right back to the athletic skeptics. You tell me, why do those bow tie perfessers lose so much money on football? Are they just stupid?

Again, the donations are counted as revenue. In fact, read Hillis's replies. He said when the Longhorn Foundation donors were polled, half of them were unaware that they were donating to athletics solely and not the university at large. surely you're aware that schools without athletics have very large endowments. Athletics tends to draw big donations to athletics. There are certainly benefits to having sports, but the original claim was that the schools make money. It's the exact opposite of that. Schools subsidize sports through direct funding, student fees, stadiums and facilities, etc.