Iowa 76 - Michigan St 73

[BobbyJ]

It's no different than the standard hop-step into the shot that is technically a travel but virtually never gets called, including against the UConn players who do it.

Great. So why are they still wasting time calling the armbar/pushoff and illegal/moving screens since everybody wants to use them?

 

[Plebe]

Imagine if Clark had gone to Notre Dame. There would have had to have a new separate sub-forum just for those threads

I actually wonder if Clark gets more attention from UConn fans than from Iowa fans

 

[The deacon]

Imagine if Clark had gone to Notre Dame. There would have had to have a new separate sub-forum just for those threads

Or maybe even to Duke, Triad. Of course, that old venom from UConn fans (and many others) toward your school basically was regarding the Blue Devils' men's teams, or rather just a few individuals.

 

[The deacon]

I actually wonder if Clark gets more attention from UConn fans than from Iowa fans

Could be, Plebe. It seems to stem from envy because Caitlin has gotten to enjoy four seasons, while the Huskies' similarly gifted icon, Paige, has missed so much court time.

To me, as I've said many times here, let's just celebrate we have both players to admire and cheer for...

 

[The deacon]

Dawn Staley has a point. The refs practically handed the win to Iowa (or at least made things more favorable for Iowa and more stressful and difficult for MSU at the end of the game) when, with around 30 seconds left to play and MSU and Iowa tied at 71-71, a phantom "in the act of shooting" foul was called against Hagemann of MSU. Replay CLEARLY showed that the Iowa player, Molly Davis, was in the act of dribbling, not shooting, yet Davis was awarded 3 foul shots for a foul type that was never committed. Davis promptly made 2 of her 3 foul shots. Hagemann, did foul Davis, but it should have been a nonshooting foul. If the correct call had been made by the refs, there would have been no free-throws for Iowa because it would have been only MSU's 4th foul of the quarter. Iowa would have had to successfully execute a tricky inbound pass from the left sideline. Instead, it is MSU which is tested by having to inbound the ball under pressure after the Iowa free throws. Also, the bad call by the refs probably saved Iowa from having to call and use up one of its timeouts at this juncture, with the score now having them ahead 73-71, rather than tied at 71-71. (note - Iowa may have still had 3 of its 4 alloted timeouts still available at this point). However, the stoppage was never-the-less like a free timeout for Iowa. Besides, to be able to score more points (in this case 2 points from 2 free throws) with the clock stopped is a great advantage for Iowa. (ie. this is exactly what Iowa wanted...score points and retake the lead with the clock stopped!) Now MSU goes full court and Hagemann ties the game again, this time at 73-73...then Clark comes back with her game winning 3 point dagger. The bottom line is, change the foul made by MSU on Davis from a shooting foul to a non-shooting foul and it is easy enough to imagine different scenerios where MSU wins or MSU and Iowa tie and go into overtime.For example, without the 2 made free throws by Davis, maybe Hagemann still makes a 2 point basket which puts MSU up by 2 points instead of tied. Iowa would then be down 71 to 73 and under more pressure to make the last shot. Or, maybe MSU steals the ball if Iowa tries to and has to inbound it after a non-shooting foul (instead of the phantom shooting foul), or......or....

Wore me out with this one, newfrontier... a good summation, however.

 

[newfrontier]

Not only that, but her "give the official the game ball" implies that the bad call decided the game. It came at a critical time, yes, but MSU tied the game after that. A correct call of a foul "on the floor" would have awarded Iowa a possession and who knows, maybe Iowa would have hit a 3 instead of only making 2 free throws. Lots of things could've happened differently.

Dawn's call-out of the bad call and her token lip service to "heckuva shot but..." (without naming the shooter) hints at a leftover taste of sour grapes from April. Her name is Caitlin Clark, Dawn.

Without the bad call against MSU the game could have been decided in favor of MSU within a reasonable set of possibilities. We will never know what the outcome would have been, but I can easily imagine several realistic, possible scenerios where MSU wins or the game goes into overtime if the foul shots by Davis never take place. To me, the bottom line is MSU deserved a better (and by better I mean fairer) opportunity to win than the one forced upon it by the bad call.

 

[Plebe]

Without the bad call against MSU the game could have been decided in favor of MSU within a reasonable set of possibilities. We will never know what the outcome would have been, bug I can easily imagine several realistic, possible scenerios where MSU wins or the game goes into overtime if the foul shots by Davis never take place. To me, the bottom line is MSU deserved a better (and by better I mean fairer) opportunity to win than the one forced upon it by the bad call.

Or it might have played to Iowa's benefit. We'll never know. Iowa might have hit a 3-pointer on the ensuing possession rather than just making 2 free throws. Or might have missed the 3-pointer but gotten the offensive rebound and then ... All sorts of things could have happened differently. There's no way to know how it would have played out and to whose benefit.

 

[cancontent]

Regardless of the final calls, Mich State did show a lot of mettle and composure to stay in this game in Iowa where it's tough to play. With several players out due to injuries, including a couple gone for the season, they've managed to adjust and compete.

They don't have a true post and have 2 guards, Ozment and Aryault, handling the 5 position majority of the time. Thought Iowa would try to take advantage of that but they didn't to the extent I thought they would. Also thought Iowa would have a rebounding advantage between Stuelke and Goodman which didn't happen.

 

[Plebe]

Regardless of the final calls, Mich State did show a lot of mettle and composure to stay in this game in Iowa where it's tough to play. With several players out due to injuries, including a couple gone for the season, they've managed to adjust and compete.

Are Alexander and Elliott gone for the season?

 

[HuskyNan]

Imagine if Clark had gone to Notre Dame. There would have had to have a new separate sub-forum just for those threads

Shhh. I finally got people to stop complaining about Skylar

 

[UConnCat]

It's no different than the standard hop-step into the shot that is technically a travel but virtually never gets called, including against the UConn players who do it.

Katie Lou did one in the Elite 8 win over Louisville right in front of Jeff Walz who lost it. It was pretty egregious as those moves go. Lou made the 3 of course.

 

[cancontent]

Are Alexander and Elliott gone for the season?

Yes. Saw Raoul post a link from the local paper in Lansing that confirmed it.

 

[Plebe]

It amazes me how much attention people give to AP/Coaches polls. NET is what matters. Mich State is a Quad One team even when you play them on your home floor. Good win for Iowa.

AP poll is created by and for the media and thus exerts a hold on the media-consuming public. The resulting attention is by design. It's the geeks like us who go beyond that.

Obviously the NET is the only ranking the tournament committee uses, but no computer ranking can be the end-all be-all. Recall that Oregon last year was #19 in NET and didn't get a bid.

 

[Bone Dog]

NET is what matters. Mich State is a Quad One team even when you play them on your home floor. Good win for Iowa.

If you're thinking about reality, that may be so. Iowa got a good test in this game and could come out of it stronger and more focused.

But if we're thinking about AP rankings, then this ought to benefit MSU and -- if this were a rational cosmos (who am I kidding?) -- cost Iowa a few spots. The #4 team was played to a virtual tie by an unranked team. If this had happened to UConn, they'd drop at least 4 maybe 6 spots for it.

 

[visitingcock]

But NET isn't a good tool for evaluation. Its like RPI, it just tells the the quality of wins and losses but there are ways to game that system. Massey to me is a much better tool for evaluation which has Michigan St around 25 - 30 range

But Massey doesn't matter to the committee. NET is what they use for evaluating teams. MY or your or Massey's opinion don't matter. And, you can game any system - including Massey, if it was desirable to do so.

Top 25 is a meaningless ranking system, Used to be 20 when i wore a younger man's clothes. A more meaningful number would be Top 32. That's half the (old) NCAA field and it's close to the cutoff between where an at large team makes or misses the NCAA.

But, getting back to the point, Massey's or NET ranking "in the 25-30 range" is Quad One and a quality win for Iowa.

 

[Plebe]

Katie Lou did one in the Elite 8 win over Louisville right in front of Jeff Walz who lost it. It was pretty egregious as those moves go. Lou made the 3 of course.

Ha I remember that. I also remember Kia Nurse habitually did the same hop step, and this forum even commented on it at some length at one time.

I recently saw an egregious one called at a crucial moment (can't recall offhand which game) and the analyst noted "yes that's a travel but it almost never gets called". But this was more like a catch, then pause, then hop and IMO had to be called.

 

[visitingcock]

If you're thinking about reality, that may be so. Iowa got a good test in this game and could come out of it stronger and more focused.

But if we're thinking about AP rankings, then this ought to benefit MSU and -- if this were a rational cosmos (who am I kidding?) -- cost Iowa a few spots. The #4 team was played to a virtual tie by an unranked team. If this had happened to UConn, they'd drop at least 4 maybe 6 spots for it.

I object to use of the word "unranked." They were played very closely by a Quad One, Conference rival. I no longer recognize AP/Coaches as legitimate ranking services. Too much personal bias. The computers may have problems, but they lack personal bias. Indeed, they may have a mathmatical programming "bias" but ot personal bias for or against a team, conference, etc.

 

[Plebe]

But if we're thinking about AP rankings, then this ought to benefit MSU and -- if this were a rational cosmos (who am I kidding?) -- cost Iowa a few spots. The #4 team was played to a virtual tie by an unranked team. If this had happened to UConn, they'd drop at least 4 maybe 6 spots for it.

I'm not well versed on the history here. Can you name one occasion when UConn dropped 4 to 6 spots as a result of narrowly beating an unranked team?

 

[Bone Dog]

I'm not well versed on the history here. Can you name one occasion when UConn dropped 4 to 6 spots as a result of narrowly beating an unranked team?

No. Can you?

 

[Bone Dog]

I object to use of the word "unranked." They were played very closely by a Quad One, Conference rival. I no longer recognize AP/Coaches as legitimate ranking services. Too much personal bias. The computers may have problems, but they lack personal bias. Indeed, they may have a mathmatical programming "bias" but ot personal bias for or against a team, conference, etc.

I see you ignored my caveat, "if you're thinking about reality." My post was entirely about the bias built into the AP rankings.

 

[HuskyNan]

If you're thinking about reality, that may be so. Iowa got a good test in this game and could come out of it stronger and more focused.

But if we're thinking about AP rankings, then this ought to benefit MSU and -- if this were a rational cosmos (who am I kidding?) -- cost Iowa a few spots. The #4 team was played to a virtual tie by an unranked team. If this had happened to UConn, they'd drop at least 4 maybe 6 spots for it.

Where is this coming from? No victim mentality, please. The Huskies have been treated quite kindly in the polls considering the personnel losses over the last few years. If any other team lost its two best players and was running on a skeleton crew like last year, they’d drop out of the polls into oblivion. This year, UConn lost 3 games and still stayed ranked.

There is a bit of cliquiness in the polling. It’s very tough for “unknowns” to break into the polls and voters are reluctant to punish the old guard.

 

[Bone Dog]

This year, UConn lost 3 games and still stayed ranked.

Yup. Were those teams ranked, by the way?

 

[hoopsnloops32]

But Massey doesn't matter to the committee. NET is what they use for evaluating teams. MY or your or Massey's opinion don't matter. And, you can game any system - including Massey, if it was desirable to do so.

Top 25 is a meaningless ranking system, Used to be 20 when i wore a younger man's clothes. A more meaningful number would be Top 32. That's half the (old) NCAA field and it's close to the cutoff between where an at large team makes or misses the NCAA.

But, getting back to the point, Massey's or NET ranking "in the 25-30 range" is Quad One and a quality win for Iowa.

Yea Massey doesn't matter the committee and neither does top 25. But the committee isn't ranking the best teams, they are seeding teams based on resume.
NET is a good evaluate of resume a poor evaluate of quality of the team and actually ranking teams against each other. Michigan State is not the 14th best team in the country but they might have the 14th based resume. The #2 team in NET at the end of the year last year was UConn, not because they had the best team but because they had the second best resume. Do you see the difference.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Where is this coming from? No victim mentality, please. The Huskies have been treated quite kindly in the polls considering the personnel losses over the last few years. If any other team lost its two best players and was running on a skeleton crew like last year, they’d drop out of the polls into oblivion. This year, UConn lost 3 games and still stayed ranked.

There is a bit of cliquiness in the polling. It’s very tough for “unknowns” to break into the polls and voters are reluctant to punish the old guard.

Why should UConn drop because of injuries when they are still beating ranked teams? You think UConn shouldn't be ranked right now because they lost Azzi, Carol, Ayanna and Jana? Does the same apply to Notre Dame who has less quality wins and doesn't have Miles, Citron, or Prosper and was above us until yesterday?

 

[HuskyNan]

Yup. Were those teams ranked, by the way?

Again, the pollsters don’t scour schedules, watch all the games, or even read box scores. They aren’t required to. A lot vote on win/loss records only. Do a Google search and you can find several sportswriters discuss how they voted and so much of it is squishy, “seems right to me” type of stuff it’s a wonder anyone takes the polls seriously