In defense of the refs ... | Page 2 | The Boneyard

In defense of the refs ...

cohenzone said:
Edification offered. Learn tongue in cheek with respect to the post to which the comment related.
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I think right back at 'cha applies here.
 
JordyG said:
The problem is fans complain when the refs call too many fouls in a big game, and then they turn around and complain when the refs let them play. Ya can't win from losin'.
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and sometimes I think the coaches may ask the refs to "let them play"... and Z's over-the-back was the right call :oops:
 
JordyG said:
And yet if you go to other sites they note how few fouls were called on UConn and how many foul shots we had. Note how on other sites they also believe UConn always receives favor from the refs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Again, it's my personal belief that refereeing should never matter. You as a team should be good enough to overcome any bias or perceived refereeing bias. This is really the only site where fans continue to complain about refereeing after we've won. Often convincingly. It's usually my contention that winners smile and losers say "Deal".
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you're on a roll tonight and I'm loving it
 
DaddyChoc said:
you're on a roll tonight and I'm loving it
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Thanks. Usually I'm about ready for the REM but I'm doing the Windows 10 Fall Creators update on my laptop and, if you may know, this s*** takes forever. I'm sure glad I did this on my desktop a month ago. Tomorrow I'm finally gonna get the co-op's electrician to install a breaker box in the kitchen to take over for (now get this!) the original fuse box. I guess the board finally heard my complains. I'll need my lappy when the electricity goes down during the install.
 
If you played basketball over the years and played in highly competitive games like these 2 teams played Sunday. The play with Napheesa and Mabry was just their competitive juices flowing. Normally a player from the opposing team doesnt just take the ball from an opponent hands and the way Mabry reacted is a natural reaction at times. There was no type of foul at all! As far as being physical in the post. there will always be pushing, holding, forearms in the back and elbows in the stomache or chest to box out. When an offensive player cuts through the lane and the defensive player steps into them then a foul should be called. But when you are playing in a game and you can get away with it. A player will do it until they get called for it. It is part of the game. I would rather have played or coached in Sundays game because the refs allowed them to play.
 
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Collier had no reason to be reaching for the ball... I think she forgot she was in a real game with ref and not a pick-up on the hardtop
 
I realize how tough a job the referees have in Div. I College WBB, but IMHO the refs usually stink! Inconsistency runs rampant!
The BIG names Lisa Mattingly, Dee Kantnor, Brian Enterline, et al, are long past their prime and I truly feel certain refs hold grudges vs certain coaches & programs! Sally Bell was a huge example of that! Boy she loved Pat Summitt & TN!
One of my pet peeves is most all of the big name officials do 5 to 6 games a week all over 2/3's of the country! Monday in CT, Tuesday in TN, Wednesday in OKLA, Friday in FLA, and Sunday in PA! I don't care what their ages are, it has to take a toll on mind & body with travel, hotels, meals, running up and down the court for 40 minutes to an hour! At the end of that week's schedule the refs cannot be at their peak that they started out on! Do this schedule for November through April it takes a lot out of the referees, especially the older ones!
Other typical calls that drive me nuts is the ref at 1/2 court calling a charge under the basket when another official is right there!
The players cannot lay their hands on the offensive player but 2 players run into each other one falls and no call is made!
To set a screen the screener must be set and not initiate contact and not move their feet through the screen, but moving screens happen 10 to 15 times a game and most aren't called till 30 seconds are left in the game and the call becomes monumental!
There was a call made last week (sorry at 70 can't recall the teams involved) where a foul was called on running through a screen and on the replay it showed 2 teammates colliding and one fell and the other team, no-where near the call, was called for the foul!
A player jumps to catch a pass and turns as she lands and the defensive player is standing right where the offense has to land and the offense is called for traveling! Don't you have to allow the player a space to land?
The charge/block call is simple, if the offensive player lowers their shoulder to initiate contact it has to be a charge! It usually is called a block!
I give Dennis DeMaio a lot of credit he realized he was slowing down and retired 2/3's of the way through the season last year!
And lastly supervisors of refs can't be ex-refs that worked with the ones they're evaluating for 20+ years, best friends! They must be impartial!
I realize I'll be attacked for all the above but that's my take of watching at least 5 to 6 games a week over 20+ years!
 
RSHERMVIKES said:
I realize how tough a job the referees have in Div. I College WBB, but IMHO the refs usually stink! Inconsistency runs rampant!
The BIG names Lisa Mattingly, Dee Kantnor, Brian Enterline, et al, are long past their prime and I truly feel certain refs hold grudges vs certain coaches & programs! Sally Bell was a huge example of that! Boy she loved Pat Summitt & TN!
One of my pet peeves is most all of the big name officials do 5 to 6 games a week all over 2/3's of the country! Monday in CT, Tuesday in TN, Wednesday in OKLA, Friday in FLA, and Sunday in PA! I don't care what their ages are, it has to take a toll on mind & body with travel, hotels, meals, running up and down the court for 40 minutes to an hour! At the end of that week's schedule the refs cannot be at their peak that they started out on! Do this schedule for November through April it takes a lot out of the referees, especially the older ones!

I give Dennis DeMaio a lot of credit he realized he was slowing down and retired 2/3's of the way through the season last year!
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I don't know that I have noticed much of a degradation in the calls by the big names you cite. Don't like Brian much, but don't think he's gotten any worse. His problem IMHO is anticipation. In general, while I do think there are some grudges, I don't think these folks are the ones that have them.

What every ref has is preconception - sometimes from years of watching a team, sometimes from their "scouting report" (yes, they don't walk out on the court not knowing who's who, although I have no idea how it is actually handled). Rutgers has, to a large extent, always suffered under the "physical" reputation - and here's what I'm saying, it isn't that they weren't and aren't physical (and too much so at times), but that if something happens that could have been due to the RU player being too physical or not due to the RU player at all (opponent tripped, for example, over their own feet) - the refs will assume that the RU player tripped the opponent, which of course is not always correct.

I get the 5 and 6 games a week thing, although I'm not sure it affects them as much as you think.

Unlike the folks you listed above, IMHO Dennis's ability had decreased before he retired.
 
KnightBridgeAZ said:
I don't know that I have noticed much of a degradation in the calls by the big names you cite. Don't like Brian much, but don't think he's gotten any worse. His problem IMHO is anticipation. In general, while I do think there are some grudges, I don't think these folks are the ones that have them.

What every ref has is preconception - sometimes from years of watching a team, sometimes from their "scouting report" (yes, they don't walk out on the court not knowing who's who, although I have no idea how it is actually handled). Rutgers has, to a large extent, always suffered under the "physical" reputation - and here's what I'm saying, it isn't that they weren't and aren't physical (and too much so at times), but that if something happens that could have been due to the RU player being too physical or not due to the RU player at all (opponent tripped, for example, over their own feet) - the refs will assume that the RU player tripped the opponent, which of course is not always correct.

I get the 5 and 6 games a week thing, although I'm not sure it affects them as much as you think.

Unlike the folks you listed above, IMHO Dennis's ability had decreased before he retired.
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I think he was saying he watches 5-6 games a week.... and I wonder who else is he watching. *, that's self-punishment... is he enjoying the game or watching the refs?

Yup, Rutgers got a bad rap/rep from a lot of people smh
 
jaundicedeye said:
My visit to McGraw's Bench - NDNation.com this morning confirmed just that. I got a kick out of their take on things. It appeared that the biggest complaint was that Arike Ogunbowale's charging foul against Lou was bogus and that Lou sold it. Amazingly, they did not reference how few calls were made overall and how both teams were permitted to play.
Gotta love it.
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...but no talk regarding ND with 8 missed shots during the 4th quarter (from the 4:22 mark to 0:18 and holding to 70 points) while UConn was making this comeback?
 
DaddyChoc said:
I think he was saying he watches 5-6 games a week.... and I wonder who else is he watching. *, that's self-punishment... is he enjoying the game or watching the refs?

Yup, Rutgers got a bad rap/rep from a lot of people smh
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DaddyChoc- - I enjoy watching the players, the abilities of the coaches and oh by the way the refs suck!
 
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RSHERMVIKES said:
I realize how tough a job the referees have in Div. I College WBB, but IMHO the refs usually stink! Inconsistency runs rampant!
The BIG names Lisa Mattingly, Dee Kantnor, Brian Enterline, et al, are long past their prime and I truly feel certain refs hold grudges vs certain coaches & programs! Sally Bell was a huge example of that! Boy she loved Pat Summitt & TN!
One of my pet peeves is most all of the big name officials do 5 to 6 games a week all over 2/3's of the country! Monday in CT, Tuesday in TN, Wednesday in OKLA, Friday in FLA, and Sunday in PA! I don't care what their ages are, it has to take a toll on mind & body with travel, hotels, meals, running up and down the court for 40 minutes to an hour! At the end of that week's schedule the refs cannot be at their peak that they started out on! Do this schedule for November through April it takes a lot out of the referees, especially the older ones!
Other typical calls that drive me nuts is the ref at 1/2 court calling a charge under the basket when another official is right there!
The players cannot lay their hands on the offensive player but 2 players run into each other one falls and no call is made!
To set a screen the screener must be set and not initiate contact and not move their feet through the screen, but moving screens happen 10 to 15 times a game and most aren't called till 30 seconds are left in the game and the call becomes monumental!
There was a call made last week (sorry at 70 can't recall the teams involved) where a foul was called on running through a screen and on the replay it showed 2 teammates colliding and one fell and the other team, no-where near the call, was called for the foul!
A player jumps to catch a pass and turns as she lands and the defensive player is standing right where the offense has to land and the offense is called for traveling! Don't you have to allow the player a space to land?
The charge/block call is simple, if the offensive player lowers their shoulder to initiate contact it has to be a charge! It usually is called a block!
I give Dennis DeMaio a lot of credit he realized he was slowing down and retired 2/3's of the way through the season last year!
And lastly supervisors of refs can't be ex-refs that worked with the ones they're evaluating for 20+ years, best friends! They must be impartial!
I realize I'll be attacked for all the above but that's my take of watching at least 5 to 6 games a week over 20+ years!
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Dee Kantnor is a referee in the NBA since 2015.
 
donalddoowop said:
Just think. Originally, basketball was meant to be a non contact sport.
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You are right for the first 60 or so years it was no or minimal contact --as the people playing became more athletic and speedy contacts became inevitable, as the players became taller and wider real contact became the norm.
If you compare today's Women's basketball to the 6 on 6 WBB--you have to take the today game every time. Ladies can be ladies; just not on the BB court. Remember James A Naismith's (a Canadian) baskets were peach baskets--it's getting harder and harder to find a peach basket.
 
KnightBridgeAZ said:
One of the most interesting things this year is having floor seats at Arizona. We attended 2 games, both against little sisters, both losses for AZ and both reffed by experienced but mostly run-of-the-mill PAC12 refs. That said -

- I saw more accurately some of the plays than from regular seats. I could actually see players arms, actually see the force used or not used, etc - the type of things you see more on replays on TV than on the game as a whole. Very interesting look.
- Not that I didn't know it, but the game is routinely very physical, without fouls being called. The banging is pretty intense. Take the opportunity (those who haven't before) and watch a game - even if it isn't UConn - from floor seats. You absolutely will get an appreciation.
- In the last game I was at, the Refs got one wrong - they did, and it happens. Replay on the big screen and my own eyes on the play told me there was no foul - but from the ref's angle, I'm sure it looked like one. Oh well.
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Kinght---I liked your post. A couple of comments, not disagreements: 1. Refs when the game is physical; it is their job to take control and minimize the physical aspect of that game. 2. Refs, good refs, anticipate fouls--from experience they see things that normally evolve into a foul. If it is close, they call the foul--which when viewed (as you said) from a different angle -is not a
foul. 3. If a refe gets more calls right than wrong, at the speed the game is played, they are doing a good job.
4) (going back to 1 above) The UConn - Okla game at the XL Center years ago --was one in which the REFs went way way overboard in too many foul calls---at half time, I'm sure the the Ref supervisors--told them to cool it. The second half was better. Refs are human, and can over react.
 
BroadwayVa said:
Kinght---I liked your post. A couple of comments, not disagreements: 1. Refs when the game is physical; it is their job to take control and minimize the physical aspect of that game. 2. Refs, good refs, anticipate fouls--from experience they see things that normally evolve into a foul. If it is close, they call the foul--which when viewed (as you said) from a different angle -is not a
foul. 3. If a refe gets more calls right than wrong, at the speed the game is played, they are doing a good job.
4) (going back to 1 above) The UConn - Okla game at the XL Center years ago --was one in which the REFs went way way overboard in too many foul calls---at half time, I'm sure the the Ref supervisors--told them to cool it. The second half was better. Refs are human, and can over react.
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BroadwayVa- - -Great minds think alike! I wanted to add that #3 OKLA at #1UCONN game in Dec. 2001-2002 season to my list of complaints but forgot to in my old age drifty self! Bill Tilden was the head ref and 28 fouls were called in the first 1/2 alone, 52 total for the game between two high ranked teams! So they were only off by 4 fouls between 1/2's! Both Geno and Sherri Coale made a point to say in the post-game presser, the refs made a circus of the game there was NO pace to the game with whistles every 15 seconds or so! The Championship game in April between the same teams was called much different and turned out to be a really great Finals!
I agree with your #2 where sometimes the refs think something is going to happen and blows the "foul" that never happened because the players reacted differently!
And the WNBA is way, way worse than College WBB, if that's possible!
WBB is such a wonderful game, great players, overall good coaching, and the refs just make a farce of the game!
 
You are trying to defend the indefensible ;) The game was supposed to be cleaned up and less physical as some believed it was getting more physical than even the guys game. In order for a more free flowing offensive skillful game with less injuries, the refs need to call it tighter and early to set the tone.
 
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And please don't forget the two masterpieces of officiating,
1. Rutgers at TN late in the game a foul was called AFTER the clock stopped when it should have expired! Giving TN a chance to score two points that won the game! Never reviewed!
2. Regional final Baylor vs TN, tied score with 5 seconds left on the game clock, TN shoots misses 2 players (one each team) go for the ball with 1 second on the clock, either could have been called for a foul but it should have been a NO CALL and go to overtime instead Baylor player called for the foul TN got 2 free-throws and won going to the FF!
With WBB, Murphy's Law, "If anything can go wrong it will", applies to the referees!
I'm sorry people I can't stomach incompetence, either in myself or other people and WBB refs IMHO are usually incompetent!
 
Last edited:
BroadwayVa said:
Kinght---I liked your post. A couple of comments, not disagreements: 1. Refs when the game is physical; it is their job to take control and minimize the physical aspect of that game. 2. Refs, good refs, anticipate fouls--from experience they see things that normally evolve into a foul. If it is close, they call the foul--which when viewed (as you said) from a different angle -is not a
foul. 3. If a refe gets more calls right than wrong, at the speed the game is played, they are doing a good job.
4) (going back to 1 above) The UConn - Okla game at the XL Center years ago --was one in which the REFs went way way overboard in too many foul calls---at half time, I'm sure the the Ref supervisors--told them to cool it. The second half was better. Refs are human, and can over react.
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A good ref will never anticipate a foul.
 
DaddyChoc said:
Collier had no reason to be reaching for the ball... I think she forgot she was in a real game with ref and not a pick-up on the hardtop
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Or in a real game, the player that had the violation normally just drops the ball on the court or immediately throws it to the ref. In this instance, Mabrey had to pout and hold on to the ball.
 
RSHERMVIKES said:
I realize how tough a job the referees have in Div. I College WBB, but IMHO the refs usually stink! Inconsistency runs rampant!
The BIG names Lisa Mattingly, Dee Kantnor, Brian Enterline, et al, are long past their prime and I truly feel certain refs hold grudges vs certain coaches & programs! Sally Bell was a huge example of that! Boy she loved Pat Summitt & TN!
One of my pet peeves is most all of the big name officials do 5 to 6 games a week all over 2/3's of the country! Monday in CT, Tuesday in TN, Wednesday in OKLA, Friday in FLA, and Sunday in PA! I don't care what their ages are, it has to take a toll on mind & body with travel, hotels, meals, running up and down the court for 40 minutes to an hour! At the end of that week's schedule the refs cannot be at their peak that they started out on! Do this schedule for November through April it takes a lot out of the referees, especially the older ones!
Other typical calls that drive me nuts is the ref at 1/2 court calling a charge under the basket when another official is right there!
The players cannot lay their hands on the offensive player but 2 players run into each other one falls and no call is made!
To set a screen the screener must be set and not initiate contact and not move their feet through the screen, but moving screens happen 10 to 15 times a game and most aren't called till 30 seconds are left in the game and the call becomes monumental!
There was a call made last week (sorry at 70 can't recall the teams involved) where a foul was called on running through a screen and on the replay it showed 2 teammates colliding and one fell and the other team, no-where near the call, was called for the foul!
A player jumps to catch a pass and turns as she lands and the defensive player is standing right where the offense has to land and the offense is called for traveling! Don't you have to allow the player a space to land?
The charge/block call is simple, if the offensive player lowers their shoulder to initiate contact it has to be a charge! It usually is called a block!
I give Dennis DeMaio a lot of credit he realized he was slowing down and retired 2/3's of the way through the season last year!
And lastly supervisors of refs can't be ex-refs that worked with the ones they're evaluating for 20+ years, best friends! They must be impartial!
I realize I'll be attacked for all the above but that's my take of watching at least 5 to 6 games a week over 20+ years!
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Watching a game on TV is no way to judge a ref. One's perspectives are off and and unless you get a good replay you don't see the entirety of the play.
 
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RSHERMVIKES said:
BroadwayVa- - -Great minds think alike! I wanted to add that #3 OKLA at #1UCONN game in Dec. 2001-2002 season to my list of complaints but forgot to in my old age drifty self! Bill Tilden was the head ref and 28 fouls were called in the first 1/2 alone, 52 total for the game between two high ranked teams! So they were only off by 4 fouls between 1/2's! Both Geno and Sherri Coale made a point to say in the post-game presser, the refs made a circus of the game there was NO pace to the game with whistles every 15 seconds or so! The Championship game in April between the same teams was called much different and turned out to be a really great Finals!
I agree with your #2 where sometimes the refs think something is going to happen and blows the "foul" that never happened because the players reacted differently!
And the WNBA is way, way worse than College WBB, if that's possible!

WBB is such a wonderful game, great players, overall good coaching, and the refs just make a farce of the game!
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Stupid ME --I look for perfection in a VERY very very imperfect world. A frustration that has lasted a life time. Yet I find--I expect perfections from others I'll never achieve. All I can hope for is good. Not that I'll stop seeking perfection in others

Great cartoon in the paper today--in those Northern papers maybe last month--Pearls Before Swine--it's about the AGING process--and accurate, yet funny.
 
HuskeyinSC said:
Watching a game on TV is no way to judge a ref. One's perspectives are off and and unless you get a good replay you don't see the entirety of the play.
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You are telling me watching my TV I don't get a better view of the nuances of the refs and the game? Most of the seats I had recently were so high the arena required an Air Traffic Controller for aircraft to avoid hitting my head when I stood up.
Youse guy that sit next to the guy on the microphone--may see more in the middle of the court, but I see it where the action really is--then too I don't have actual play back set in my brain, no rewind, no slow-mo, would be nice but don't have it.
 
DaddyChoc said:
I think he was saying he watches 5-6 games a week.... and I wonder who else is he watching. *, that's self-punishment... is he enjoying the game or watching the refs?,

Yup, Rutgers got a bad rap/rep from a lot of people smh
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I have a hard time not thinking Rutgers wasn't physical---I think of the Prince play on Maya where she grabbed Mays arm and Maya was in the air and yanked Maya to the floor==HARD. Their post play was always physical, so physical Geno put Gardler in an RU Game to counter the physical play (Megan G was highly physical).
 
Another interesting thing about Mabrey and that traveling call. She actually moved her pivot foot twice before the ref made the call. Once at 4:53 when she's calling for a Shepard screen, in which Shepard is slow to respond, and again at 4:51 when the ref is counting off the 5 sec rule. Her frustration was not with Collier or Kia, but with Shepard's slow response. Shepard, to me, looked out of breath and slow to respond the entire 4th quarter. She missed two bunnies because, in my opinion, her legs were tired. To my eyes she looks woefully out of condition and only slightly better than when she was at Nebraska. I will guarantee that come next year Muffet will have her 20-25 lbs. less and she'll add a good 10 lbs of muscle.
 
RSHERMVIKES said:
cbraarj- - - As bad as I hear some NBA refs are that's no recommendation!
I don't think Dee Kantnor is a fan of Geno.
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I agree, I read that the other day that is why I brought it up. People talk about travelling in WCBB not being called (including me) just watch a NBA game because those refs never call it!
 
cbraarj said:
I agree, I read that the other day that is why I brought it up. People talk about travelling in WCBB not being called (including me) just watch a NBA game because those refs never call it!
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That was part of the Jordan Rules. 1) Flagrant fouls to protect his highness, 2) King Michael is allowed as many steps as necessary in order to increase eyes on the Association and sell the brand.
 
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