In defense of the refs ...

[Centerstream]

Collier had no reason to be reaching for the ball... I think she forgot she was in a real game with ref and not a pick-up on the hardtop

Or in a real game, the player that had the violation normally just drops the ball on the court or immediately throws it to the ref. In this instance, Mabrey had to pout and hold on to the ball.

 

[Centerstream]

A good ref will never anticipate a foul.

I agree so I guess there aren't any good refs in the game because every one of them does it.

 

[HuskylnSC]

I realize how tough a job the referees have in Div. I College WBB, but IMHO the refs usually stink! Inconsistency runs rampant!
The BIG names Lisa Mattingly, Dee Kantnor, Brian Enterline, et al, are long past their prime and I truly feel certain refs hold grudges vs certain coaches & programs! Sally Bell was a huge example of that! Boy she loved Pat Summitt & TN!
One of my pet peeves is most all of the big name officials do 5 to 6 games a week all over 2/3's of the country! Monday in CT, Tuesday in TN, Wednesday in OKLA, Friday in FLA, and Sunday in PA! I don't care what their ages are, it has to take a toll on mind & body with travel, hotels, meals, running up and down the court for 40 minutes to an hour! At the end of that week's schedule the refs cannot be at their peak that they started out on! Do this schedule for November through April it takes a lot out of the referees, especially the older ones!
Other typical calls that drive me nuts is the ref at 1/2 court calling a charge under the basket when another official is right there!
The players cannot lay their hands on the offensive player but 2 players run into each other one falls and no call is made!
To set a screen the screener must be set and not initiate contact and not move their feet through the screen, but moving screens happen 10 to 15 times a game and most aren't called till 30 seconds are left in the game and the call becomes monumental!
There was a call made last week (sorry at 70 can't recall the teams involved) where a foul was called on running through a screen and on the replay it showed 2 teammates colliding and one fell and the other team, no-where near the call, was called for the foul!
A player jumps to catch a pass and turns as she lands and the defensive player is standing right where the offense has to land and the offense is called for traveling! Don't you have to allow the player a space to land?
The charge/block call is simple, if the offensive player lowers their shoulder to initiate contact it has to be a charge! It usually is called a block!
I give Dennis DeMaio a lot of credit he realized he was slowing down and retired 2/3's of the way through the season last year!
And lastly supervisors of refs can't be ex-refs that worked with the ones they're evaluating for 20+ years, best friends! They must be impartial!
I realize I'll be attacked for all the above but that's my take of watching at least 5 to 6 games a week over 20+ years!

Watching a game on TV is no way to judge a ref. One's perspectives are off and and unless you get a good replay you don't see the entirety of the play.

 

[BroadwayVa]

A good ref will never anticipate a foul.

Want to bet? Fans don't believe that they should or do. But once you see an action--you recognize that action as it is happening--anticipation.

 

[BroadwayVa]

BroadwayVa- - -Great minds think alike! I wanted to add that #3 OKLA at #1UCONN game in Dec. 2001-2002 season to my list of complaints but forgot to in my old age drifty self! Bill Tilden was the head ref and 28 fouls were called in the first 1/2 alone, 52 total for the game between two high ranked teams! So they were only off by 4 fouls between 1/2's! Both Geno and Sherri Coale made a point to say in the post-game presser, the refs made a circus of the game there was NO pace to the game with whistles every 15 seconds or so! The Championship game in April between the same teams was called much different and turned out to be a really great Finals!
I agree with your #2 where sometimes the refs think something is going to happen and blows the "foul" that never happened because the players reacted differently!
And the WNBA is way, way worse than College WBB, if that's possible!

WBB is such a wonderful game, great players, overall good coaching, and the refs just make a farce of the game!

Stupid ME --I look for perfection in a VERY very very imperfect world. A frustration that has lasted a life time. Yet I find--I expect perfections from others I'll never achieve. All I can hope for is good. Not that I'll stop seeking perfection in others

Great cartoon in the paper today--in those Northern papers maybe last month--Pearls Before Swine--it's about the AGING process--and accurate, yet funny.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Watching a game on TV is no way to judge a ref. One's perspectives are off and and unless you get a good replay you don't see the entirety of the play.

You are telling me watching my TV I don't get a better view of the nuances of the refs and the game? Most of the seats I had recently were so high the arena required an Air Traffic Controller for aircraft to avoid hitting my head when I stood up.
Youse guy that sit next to the guy on the microphone--may see more in the middle of the court, but I see it where the action really is--then too I don't have actual play back set in my brain, no rewind, no slow-mo, would be nice but don't have it.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I think he was saying he watches 5-6 games a week.... and I wonder who else is he watching. *, that's self-punishment... is he enjoying the game or watching the refs?,

Yup, Rutgers got a bad rap/rep from a lot of people smh

I have a hard time not thinking Rutgers wasn't physical---I think of the Prince play on Maya where she grabbed Mays arm and Maya was in the air and yanked Maya to the floor==HARD. Their post play was always physical, so physical Geno put Gardler in an RU Game to counter the physical play (Megan G was highly physical).

 

[JordyG]

Another interesting thing about Mabrey and that traveling call. She actually moved her pivot foot twice before the ref made the call. Once at 4:53 when she's calling for a Shepard screen, in which Shepard is slow to respond, and again at 4:51 when the ref is counting off the 5 sec rule. Her frustration was not with Collier or Kia, but with Shepard's slow response. Shepard, to me, looked out of breath and slow to respond the entire 4th quarter. She missed two bunnies because, in my opinion, her legs were tired. To my eyes she looks woefully out of condition and only slightly better than when she was at Nebraska. I will guarantee that come next year Muffet will have her 20-25 lbs. less and she'll add a good 10 lbs of muscle.

 

[cbraarj]

cbraarj- - - As bad as I hear some NBA refs are that's no recommendation!
I don't think Dee Kantnor is a fan of Geno.

I agree, I read that the other day that is why I brought it up. People talk about travelling in WCBB not being called (including me) just watch a NBA game because those refs never call it!

 

[JordyG]

I agree, I read that the other day that is why I brought it up. People talk about travelling in WCBB not being called (including me) just watch a NBA game because those refs never call it!

That was part of the Jordan Rules. 1) Flagrant fouls to protect his highness, 2) King Michael is allowed as many steps as necessary in order to increase eyes on the Association and sell the brand.

 

[cbraarj]

Major D-1 basketball referees make approximately $2,000 a game but pay own expenses in regular season. During NCAA Tournament travel and hotel are paid by NCAA.

 

[rugbymate]

Want to bet? Fans don't believe that they should or do. But once you see an action--you recognize that action as it is happening--anticipation.

I think donalddoowop said a "good ref" doesn't anticipate a foul and I agree....having done a fair amount of reffing ( paid the grad school bills), we were trained to watch the whole play and not just the contact and particularly potential contact...sure if there is a one on one fast break you naturally are looking to see how clean the play is but in half court sets there are so many things to look for that you really have to react to what happens and not what you think might happen

 

[donalddoowop]

Want to bet? Fans don't believe that they should or do. But once you see an action--you recognize that action as it is happening--anticipation.

Anticipate a foul and then it does not occur, because no contact was made. Do that enough times and the head of officials will be all over you and assign you fewer games if any at all, and the coaches will stop hiring you. I've seen it at officials meetings.

 

[rugbymate]

If you played basketball over the years and played in highly competitive games like these 2 teams played Sunday. The play with Napheesa and Mabry was just their competitive juices flowing. Normally a player from the opposing team doesnt just take the ball from an opponent hands and the way Mabry reacted is a natural reaction at times. There was no type of foul at all! As far as being physical in the post. there will always be pushing, holding, forearms in the back and elbows in the stomache or chest to box out. When an offensive player cuts through the lane and the defensive player steps into them then a foul should be called. But when you are playing in a game and you can get away with it. A player will do it until they get called for it. It is part of the game. I would rather have played or coached in Sundays game because the refs allowed them to play.

If you played basketball over the years and played in highly competitive games like these 2 teams played Sunday. The play with Napheesa and Mabry was just their competitive juices flowing. Normally a player from the opposing team doesnt just take the ball from an opponent hands and the way Mabry reacted is a natural reaction at times. There was no type of foul at all! As far as being physical in the post. there will always be pushing, holding, forearms in the back and elbows in the stomache or chest to box out. When an offensive player cuts through the lane and the defensive player steps into them then a foul should be called. But when you are playing in a game and you can get away with it. A player will do it until they get called for it. It is part of the game. I would rather have played or coached in Sundays game because the refs allowed them to play.

As to Mabry holding the ball after a violation....the rules are very explicit and it is grounds for a technical and she was probably on the edge of getting one. Although, good judgement by the ref for the non-call. Also, had Collier made contact trying to retrieve the dead ball from Maybry's hands she could have been whistled for an unsportsmanship foul which is similar to a technical but doesn't count as a personal foul. She also has to be careful of the hand clapping as that may be viewed as taunting...also a foul. A lot of stuff was going on in that sequence and the ref did a good job of letting it go.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I think donalddoowop said a "good ref" doesn't anticipate a foul and I agree....having done a fair amount of reffing ( paid the grad school bills), we were trained to watch the whole play and not just the contact and particularly potential contact...sure if there is a one on one fast break you naturally are looking to see how clean the play is but in half court sets there are so many things to look for that you really have to react to what happens and not what you think might happen

This is pure argumentative --I know--and I accept your level of "experience" and veracity. However, in my experience, training prepares you to do your job perfectly; the actuality of doing the job isn't always handled with perfection. I.E. we train to be the best but accept less.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Anticipate a foul and then it does not occur, because no contact was made. Do that enough times and the head of officials will be all over you and assign you fewer games if any at all, and the coaches will stop hiring you. I've seen it at officials meetings.

No doubt there are bad refs many are usually seen early on, those seen later maybe criminal. I have no reason to doubt what you say But:

It isn't easy to get Refs to do the travel, take the personal insults, and be away from home more night/days than desired. Start firing for perceived injustices and soon you have nothing except really bad refs.\

To determine that a ref "anticipated" the call or didn't is not a certainty or just a judgement call, most calls made by a ref are based on judgement and experience and yes some anticipation. How does the brain make split second judgements that fans expect 100 percent correctness in those judgement? Experience, expectation (anticipation), and knowledge (which usually comes from experience). The brain is excellent but all coaches don't have the same arrangement of cells or numbers. Humans are a fallible species, perfection isn't in them--but ability to strive for perfection is.

 

[HuskylnSC]

You are telling me watching my TV I don't get a better view of the nuances of the refs and the game? Most of the seats I had recently were so high the arena required an Air Traffic Controller for aircraft to avoid hitting my head when I stood up.
Youse guy that sit next to the guy on the microphone--may see more in the middle of the court, but I see it where the action really is--then too I don't have actual play back set in my brain, no rewind, no slow-mo, would be nice but don't have it.

Yup. And you're right. Most of the truth cannot be sen unless you are within 10-15 feet of the action with a good angle on the action. Most fans, coaches and commentators don't know what actually happened until they get the slo-mo from the best angle.

 

[wallman]

In the NBA my ref buddy said that if they make the same mistake over and over on their evaluations then they can kiss any end of season games goodbye. Not sure how they evaluate for WCBB but I have seen the same refs make the same errors over the years in many different games.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

. . . It appeared that the biggest complaint was that Arike Ogunbowale's charging foul against Lou was bogus and that Lou sold it. . . .

I remember in a post last year I remarked on how Lou always snaps her head back in those
charge situations. Of course I don't know anything for a fact, but in my opinion that head
motion is an affectation and she does it to try and sell the charge. The excess of drama just
looks a little bogus to me.

 

[DaddyChoc]

I have a hard time not thinking Rutgers wasn't physical---I think of the Prince play on Maya where she grabbed Mays arm and Maya was in the air and yanked Maya to the floor==HARD. Their post play was always physical, so physical Geno put Gardler in an RU Game to counter the physical play (Megan G was highly physical).

no worse than any other school that plays basketball... its just something else about Rutgers! we're talking about KLS getting "mugged" and Rutgers is nowhere on the schedule

 

[DaddyChoc]

As to Mabry holding the ball after a violation....the rules are very explicit and it is grounds for a technical and she was probably on the edge of getting one. Although, good judgement by the ref for the non-call. Also, had Collier made contact trying to retrieve the dead ball from Maybry's hands she could have been whistled for an unsportsmanship foul which is similar to a technical but doesn't count as a personal foul. She also has to be careful of the hand clapping as that may be viewed as taunting...also a foul. A lot of stuff was going on in that sequence and the ref did a good job of letting it go.

well said... Collier started it

 

[HuskylnSC]

I remember in a post last year I remarked on how Lou always snaps her head back in those
charge situations. Of course I don't know anything for a fact, but in my opinion that head
motion is an affectation and she does it to try and sell the charge. The excess of drama just
looks a little bogus to me.

I think she learned that from Shabazz. Where it also looked over the top