I'm More Convinced Than Ever: UConn & UVA to the B1G

[CTMike]

I can only conclude that some folks are absolutely incapable of understanding that CR has next to nothing to do with athletic performance. You would think Rutgers' invite to the B1G would be a 2x4 to the side of the head on this issue, but apparently not...

Except when it's used as a knock against us. The rules change to constantly paint us in a negative light.

 

[dayooper]

I don't know why someone would be refer to UNC as the "elephant in the room", in basketball I think Roy has lost his touch and is thinking of retiring and in football just last year they were blown out by East Carolina, lost to South Carolina, lost to Georgia Tech, and lost to a couple others including that perennial football power Duke. Not to mention the world of they are in with the NCAA investigations, the Chancellors resignation because of it, graduate students taking tests for athletes, a professors class that gave "A's" to athletes and as it turns out the classes never took place. The only elephant in the room is one big one that's about to take a gigantic dump on Chapel Hill. Delaney would invite Wisc-Green Bay before UNC.

I mean the football program has had it's problems over the years, yeah Mack Brown was okay, but they have not really had any national respect in football since Carl Snavely and the guy after him, but that was ages ago.

Delaney would invite UNC before they even finished asking. There are only five traditional Bluebloods in college bball, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and UNC (UConn is as close as you can get without being one). You have to take them. The academic issue will blow over, eventually and you get the flagship school of a very fast growing state being packed with many Big10 alumni. That's not even including the academics and research they would add to The CiC. No matter what happened with the academics of the athletes, they still are a top notch school. These are 50 year decisions, remember. The scandal will have run its course in a couple years, at most.

That being said, UNC is not coming to the Big10 unless The ACC is falling apart.

 

[upstater]

Delaney would invite UNC before they even finished asking. There are only five traditional Bluebloods in college bball, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and UNC (UConn is as close as you can get without being one). You have to take them. The academic issue will blow over, eventually and you get the flagship school of a very fast growing state being packed with many Big10 alumni. That's not even including the academics and research they would add to The CiC. No matter what happened with the academics of the athletes, they still are a top notch school. These are 50 year decisions, remember. The scandal will have run its course in a couple years, at most.

That being said, UNC is not coming to the Big10 unless The ACC is falling apart.

Not so sure the academic issue is going to blow over. Rather, it's going to spread like wildfire soon. Accrediting agencies are all over this right now, and they are looking around at many other schools. All these classes that keep athletes eligible will now need to be justified.

 

[whaler11]

Not so sure the academic issue is going to blow over. Rather, it's going to spread like wildfire soon. Accrediting agencies are all over this right now, and they are looking around at many other schools. All these classes that keep athletes eligible will now need to be justified.

Things might change going forward but UNC is not going to be punished. Other than some State fans and a handful of people at the N&O nobody really seems to give a damn anyway.

 

[whaler11]

I'm not referring to the NCAA, though the NCAA will have to address and confront what it means for courses to go unaccredited. And these schools can't have these unaccredited courses anymore. I recently heard that there's a team of lawyers at UNC battling with the mid-states accreditation agency right now, but that the same rigor is going on elsewhere. This has a lot to do with student loans and the higher federal standards for accreditation. A lot of for-profit schools are pointing to UNC's scandal as evidence that non-profit universities are gaming the system. I would also direct those agencies to look at APR.

So a potential outcome from the past acts is that UNC could lose their accrediation?

 

[CL82]

So a potential outcome from the past acts is that UNC could lose their accrediation?

That, essentially, was the NCAA's stance when they said it is an academic and not an athletic issue. Unless, you think they were just blowing smoke because they didn't want to take on UNC.

 

[whaler11]

That, essentially, was the NCAA's stance when they said it is an academic and not an athletic issue. Unless, you think they were just blowing smoke because they didn't want to take on UNC.

I think the concept of the NCAA in general is silly nevermind the idea that they would have any authority over academic issues at universities.

I get what upstater is saying about accrediation - I can't tell if he is only talking about go forward or if anything from the past could be penalized.

 

[Dooley]

The only thing keeping UCONN from being called a "blueblood" is years, I suppose. We don't have to win another championship for 20 years, but come 2034, our place on the "blueblood" mantle will be rock solid. Because CR moves are made, for the most part, with the next 50 years in mind, UCONN should be considered a blueblood for expansion purposes.

If anyone needs any proof of just how powerful UNC is, they are effectively getting away administering absolutely bogus classes for their athletes, went through a Butch Davis era without losing their football program, and play home games almost every year in the NCAA Tourney. The fact that they have always supported inclusion of UCONN is a very good thing for UCONN, even if doesn't mean that we get into the ACC. UNC holds very serious clout in the P5 - that's why every conference trips over themselves to try to get them (and why the ACC will do whatever it takes to keep them happy).

 

[king conn]

Going forward. But such an agency may have means of dinging schools that I don't know about. As an agency with any teeth whatsoever, it would seem they would have to have such abilities to penalize. But let me be clear: the higher new standards are a result of national political and federal policies. Not a reaction to sports and the NCAA. I did hear however that UNC is the national poster boy for what is going on.

This new separation and set of rules for the P5 make it even more unlikely they receive any penalties.

 

[king conn]

The people at these agencies have little to nothing to do with college sports. They couldn't tell you a P5 from a G5 from a Z28. It's a whole separate thing that deals strictly with academics.

Not as far as athletic penalties. I think thats what most people are concerned about here.

 

[whaler11]

No, it will have to get rid of bogus courses.

Or intersession courses. The new accreditation regime may create a situation where many intersession classes are deemed ineligible for accreditation, which will impact many other things.

To answer your question: if UNC or any other schools persist with courses that don't meet the new standards, then yes, they will lose accreditation, but UNC would never ever risk that.

So are they hoping to end the sham of loan money that flows places like Phoenix?

Seems taking away intercession would be very difficult that would hurt a lot of people on both sides.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I apologize if this has been asked/answered already but I'm just making my way through this thread for the first time.

Let me ask you this: how would a division of Georgia Tech, Virginia, Maryland, Rutgers, UConn, Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan and Michigan State really be much different for UNC than what they face now? I don't see how that would be viewed as a culture shock, to be honest. They're already playing up and down the east coast. Those locations wouldn't really be much of a shock. They're already playing at Pitt, BC, Syracuse, etc.

To me, the issue is how much and how rapidly an organization can accommodate change. I think the B1G has all it can handle just to get traction in the Northeast. The risks associated with that are imposing. Why exacerbate things by attempting to conquer the Southeast as well? There may come a time when the B1G can look southward along the Atlantic coast but that would seem to be after the Northeast expansion is paying dividends. Simply adopting a Southeast strategy would seem to pose risks at least as large as those associated with the Northeast where the B1G faces no significant competition. The Southeast is a whole different animal because of the SEC.

 

[kyleslamb]

That, essentially, was the NCAA's stance when they said it is an academic and not an athletic issue. Unless, you think they were just blowing smoke because they didn't want to take on UNC.

Are they referring to institutional or programmatic accreditation? If it's institutional, then UNC would outright lose NCAA membership unless the NCAA quickly changed the bylaws.

That said, I don't believe for a second the accrediting agencies are going to revoke accreditation over this, despite their huffing and puffing. You know if it were a private or for-profit entity, they would in a second. But they were trying to put CCSF on notice and that put people into a firestorm being a public institution. I think they'll talk a good game, but I don't believe they'll resort to revoking.

 

[upstater]

Not as far as athletic penalties. I think thats what most people are concerned about here.

But again, given the NCAA's stance on APR and academics, the loss of courses now accredited, or any penalties nullifying the value of such courses, should get the NCAA involved. Or else how do you enforce APR at all when the accrediting agency just penalized a school? The NCAA would have to get involved there.

 

[kyleslamb]

I don't think it's a matter of the university losing accreditation. Once faced with the loss of accreditation of certain courses, the university will not teach those courses anymore. Again, I don't know what kind of penalties an accrediting agency can issue, but for accreditation to mean anything at all, one would imagine there are penalties that can be issued for improper courses in the past.

Is that really true though? I thought I read that less than half of all programs are accredited by a specialized agency. I've done a fair amount of searching through the accreditation database that OPE holds, and I know the number of specialized programs that are accredited definitely don't come close to the number actually taught.

 

[billybud]

While educational malpractice suits might abound.. if Ross vs Creighton shows us anything, it is that educational malpractice is a tough case to make...

An analysis of the courts ruling...


"Analysis: No educational malpractice claim will be heard by courts. The Ross court
stated that there is a “lack of satisfactory standard of care by which to evaluate an
educator” and that educational theories are so varied that no judgment can be made.
Further, since no determination can be made about what other factors contribute to the
failure of a student, the court cannot rule on the nature of the damages. Finally, to hear
educational malpractice cases would initiate a flood of litigation against schools.

In terms of the new tort of “negligent admission,” Ross alleged that the school should
“recruit and enroll only those students reasonably qualified and able to academically
perform at Creighton.” The court responded by invoking the Demarco ruling that “a
decision of the school authorities relating to the academic qualification of the students
will not be reviewed. . . . [C]ourts are not qualified to pass an opinion as to the
attainments of a student . . . and . . . courts will not review a decision of the school
authorities relating to academic qualifications of the students.” The Ross court stated that
a determination of the educatability of a student by an educational institution would be
necessarily subjective and cannot be decided by a judicial body. Further, this would
greatly decrease the opportunities of less-than-stellar students to receive college."

"

 

[upstater]

Is that really true though? I thought I read that less than half of all programs are accredited by a specialized agency. I've done a fair amount of searching through the accreditation database that OPE holds, and I know the number of specialized programs that are accredited definitely don't come close to the number actually taught.

The difference this time around is that indeed entire programs are at stake. There's a real threat to the current survey.

 

[SouthronCross]

I'm not referring to the NCAA, though the NCAA will have to address and confront what it means for courses to go unaccredited. And these schools can't have these unaccredited courses anymore. I recently heard that there's a team of lawyers at UNC battling with the mid-states accreditation agency right now, but that the same rigor is going on elsewhere. This has a lot to do with student loans and the higher federal standards for accreditation. A lot of for-profit schools are pointing to UNC's scandal as evidence that non-profit universities are gaming the system. I would also direct those agencies to look at APR.

OK, I make the following post admitting that I do not know all of the goings on with the investigation. I gave up after about a year, because of all the stuff that kept coming out. It was too much to keep up with for me.

I thought that UNC's accreditation was with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools? And, if memory serves, SACS have made their ruling, and, they seemed satisified with how they were handling the situation.

Why would they be battling with the mid-states accreditation agency?

 

[kyleslamb]

OK, I make the following post admitting that I do not know all of the goings on with the investigation. I gave up after about a year, because of all the stuff that kept coming out. It was too much to keep up with for me.

I thought that UNC's accreditation was with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools? And, if memory serves, SACS have made their ruling, and, they seemed satisified with how they were handling the situation.

Why would they be battling with the mid-states accreditation agency?

That's correct. They're accredited as an institution through SACS. What's more is that I looked and the department/college the African American Studies program is contained is not accredited as a program anyhow, so there's no worry of needing to drop the program. In fact, the entire college of arts & sciences does not appear to have any programmatic accreditation.

So unless SACS reverses course and considers removing institutional accreditation, not sure how this could impact UNC in any way academically short of the DOE getting involved an threatening Title IV funding (doubtful).

 

[NickyNewark]

I can only conclude that some folks are absolutely incapable of understanding that CR has next to nothing to do with athletic performance. You would think Rutgers' invite to the B1G would be a 2x4 to the side of the head on this issue, but apparently not...

It's all about developing relationship's over the year's with like minded peer school's...deserve's got nothing to do with it as Boise St in FB is a prime example of no matter who they beat or what they win..doubt they ever get in the PAC12...everyone knew RU was going B1G for awhile.. deserve it or not! They put in the work(20+ yrs) with the powers that matter in the B1G(RU never looked much the ACC's way) AND had geography on their side but so does UConn between Boston and NYC! Outside RU(Philly/NJ/NYC) what state U has better surrounding geography than UConn? Next up UConn and i think soon before AAU status but you are contigenous to NYC/NJ market and already have the hoop's pedigree...everyone knows AAU is coming soon here and FB is in good hands!

 

[Rappin'Rodney]

It's all about developing relationship's over the year's with like minded peer school's

Does anyone know of any relationships UConn has with any B1G universities?

 

[Kolumbo]

Does anyone know of any relationships UConn has with any B1G universities?

It's something:
"Universitas 21 - UConn is one of only four U.S. members of the prestigious Universitas 21 network, the leading global network of research universities for the 21st century!"
Four U.S. Universities are members: UCONN (2010), Ohio State (2013), UVA (2001), Maryland (2013).
http://www.universitas21.com/member

 

[RegisteredUconn]

I live in Mn and work out of an office in Winston-Salem. The B1G and UNC do not mix. They may fit the profile as an institution, but not as a culture. It would be disastrous. UVA would be borderline today. You can not add another south of UMd until that proves successful. If UMd integrates with the B1G then UVA can except without to much drama. The GOR is the perfect amount of time for the B1G to show UVA that UMd is working and they could too.

The notion that a 15 team B1G exists for a period of time before moving to 16 teams makes a lot of sense to me. UConn is in the fold and adding valuable content to the B1G offerings immediately. A slower, feeling out process with UVA might be the required approach. Certainly a B1G move would get the SEC thinking and evaluating moves of its own. Two schools, one in NC and one in VA, accepting offers to the SEC might be all that's needed to send UVA scurrying for shelter in the B1G. There is absolutely no need for the B1G to make offers in pairs.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Right, but we were rebuffed by them, how many times? Sure we need the invite, but my theory is that whoever offers first, UConn will accept. We are not in a position to where our administrators trying to play games cost us an opportunity to leave the AAC. It is for this fact that many on here have the opinion that whoever invites us first gets an immediate acceptance letter with a promised parade and keys to the state of CT!

Are you arguing that an ACC offer might include a stipulation that if we mention the offer to any other conference the offer is null and void? Interesting.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Yes, being a Southern school IS very important to Carolina. Yes, the administration and faculty would very much prefer the B1G. Some very influential alumni, and fans, would be, too.

It would for sure be a huge battle for UNC's future.

And, as much as the admin and faculty would grumble, the athletic department would do exactly what the money people tells it to do. If that is B1G, it will be B1G. If its SEC, it will be SEC.

The B1G makes no sense for Carolina. I don't think the ACC is going anywhere, but it the wildly unlikely hypothetical, I think that UNC goes to the SEC. We biased northerner like to pick on the SEC, but there is nothing wrong with the academic profile at Georgia, Florida, Alabama (yes, Alabama), Texas A&M and certainly Vandy is superb. Missouri and Tennessee are certainly no worse than the likes of NC State and are better than Louisville. So the potential SEC EAST division that UNC would join would have a perfectly acceptable academic profile.

Now the real world is that both Carolinas are growing, along with Florida and Georgia. The upper midwest. Delany mentioned this several times, he wanted into the ACC footprint in part because it has better long term demographics. The ACC schools know this and should know that if they can hold together, they are in a great position, better than most of the other conferences really.

 

[clmssun]

There is absolutely no need for the B1G to make offers in pairs.

Presuming that the conference championship game deregulation passes, yes.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

The OP scenario actually would be detrimental to getting in the B1G .
An ACC destruction model moves us down the pecking order.
The best that comes out of this is some of our old BiG east foes will have to turn to the AAC. Welcome to Big East football part two.

I wasn't arguing that the ACC would be destroyed (although some have interpreted what I said that way). Rather, I was suggesting that the ACC would be devalued as the B1G and SEC acquire some of its properties.

 

[RegisteredUconn]

Kind of agree AZ but the BE/AAC brand is too devalued compare the to ACC brand. So what happens if the ACC implodes is that join the B1G and the better AAC schools, UConn included, would join the ACC. Not a great scenario, but any move to a P5 is an improvement.

I don't see any chance of the ACC imploding short of the P5 morphing into a P4 with the conferences expanding to 16-20 teams each. Even then, it would be between the ACC and B12 which would disappear. Unless the B1G and SEC are moving immediately to 18+ teams, there are simply too many good teams remaining in the ACC for it to disappear after three teams are lost in raids. The ACC simply becomes the Big East with teams fleeing whenever opportunities arise.

 

[NotreDameJoe]

What states is NC contiguous with again?

 

[Kolumbo]

What states is NC contiguous with again?

How much is the cost of tea in China?