If So and So did not get hurt we would have won.....

[bballnut90]

let me simplify this...everyone on this board knows that Harrison on the floor is worth at LEAST two points, which wins the game. (it was a one point game then we started fouling to stop the clock). she would have gotten one rebound, a basket, a block, etc. that being said, injuries happen. the lady vols still should have won this game with or without her. the guards did not box out well at all. that part was baffling to me. even with the loss, this TN team is different. they are tougher than any LV team since 2008. they lost but i am proud of them for fighting. they came in as 17 point underdogs and almost pulled it off.

oh well...see you at the SEC tourney Ms. Staley.

I don't think it's a slam dunk that Tennessee would've won with Harrison. She would have helped and been a huge factor defending the post and getting rebounds, but if she is healthy I don't think Graves has as much room to operate in the paint and put up huge numbers. I also think the rest of Tennessee's lineup was playing inspired basketball due to Harrison's injury. Realistically, this doesn't happen if Harrison is healthy.

 

[AnotherVolFan]

This is a very childish thread! Point, blank, period.

 

[bballnut90]

In all seriousness--for teams whose title chances were severely hurt by injuries, here's my short list:

Tennessee and UConn in 2001. Tennessee was a better team in 2001 than 2000 with a healthy Catchings. They played awful in the Sweet 16 against Xavier, but having Catchings in the lineup would've made a huge difference. I don't think it's a slam dunk by any measure that Tennessee wins the title or even gets to a Final Four with Catchings (a very good Purdue team was in their regional), but all season long Tennessee, Notre Dame, and UCONN were the three best teams in the country. If Notre Dame meets UCONN in 2001 with a healthy UCONN team, it's a total toss up. Notre Dame beat UCONN pretty handily in South Bend, and UCONN won a nailbiter in the Big East tournament when they were without Abrosimova (and Ralph went down that game.) In hindsight, having Ralph and Abrosimova would've helped provide UCONN alternative scoring threats outside of Bird/Taurasi when they were missing shots.

I think 2005 Tennessee wins a championship if Tennessee plays with a healthy Parker. They badly choked the game away due to poor post defense and lack of offensive production. Parker solves both of those problems.

1997 UCONN with a healthy Ralph could've shaken up the tournament. UCONN was undefeated, and had they won against Tennessee I think they stomp Notre Dame and are set up for an epic matchup with Old Dominion. That said, I don't think it's a slam dunk that UCONN beats Tennessee with Ralph....Tennessee was playing great basketball at the end of 1997.

2006 UCONN losing Turner to cramps late against Duke was huge. Turner was playing outstanding basketball and if she doesn't get cramped up, UCONN might have knocked off Duke. Considering how flat LSU was against Duke in 2006, I bet UCONN advances to the title game against Maryland which is a big advantage to UCONN.

Also in 2006, Latta's injury in the Final Four against Maryland was costly. Latta was arguably the top player in the country as a junior and North Carolina was the heavy title favorite. After her injury, she played very poorly and wasn't her normal self.

Again in 2006, Tennessee losing Hornbuckle was a major blow to their title chances. Parker became Tennessee's best ball handler and even when Hornbuckle came back in the NCAAs, she was far from 100%.

2014 Notre Dame probably doesn't win with Achonwa, but women's basketball was robbed of a great match up once she went down. I don't think Notre Dame wins, but Achonwa definitely makes the game more competitive.

 

[ocoandasoc]

If Bascomb doesn't get in foul trouble early on some bad calls UConn beats Virginia and then whips Tenn to take their first championship... in 1991. (Of course, if there's one more second on the clock in the Toledo game UConn goes down in the second round that year!)

And, btw, I'm not a Tenn fan, but Harrison's defense and rebounding would definitely have changed the outcome of their game against SC. But I don't think either are probable Final Four teams unless their brackets fall just right.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

CamrnCrz1974, this does not need to involve UCONN. For example Chelsea Gray going down didn't cost Duke a game? Alexis Jones?

It did, certainly. But they both played against UConn in all matchups when they were together. Duke lost plenty of games against good opponents when both played. They just lost to average teams when they didn't.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Ya the Lady Vols have had more than their fair share of injuries...... but the team potential is really good, as witnessed Monday night.... I want to see Mercedes in action before I call her the second coming...... will she be able to run the floor on her surgically repaired feet.. Monday I saw Wilson at 6'5" run up and down the floor like a gazelle......

Good job Tennessee on Monday..... the whole team came to play.....

 

[Aluminny69]

Wait a minute. 2008, Maya Moore's freshman year. Both Mel Thomas and Kalana Greene go down to injuries. Despite this, UConn only loses one game in the regular season. With Thomas and Greene, UConn beats Stanford in the Final Four. BTW, UConn didn't lose another game for quite some time.

 

[Bestiarius]

One could never say that TN would have won for sure but losing Harrison was an enormous blow. Her absence was OBVIOUS in the paint. They had no answer for SC's post players. TN was just too small to contend with 4 huge post players. That's just a fact. Also, Izzy has completely dominated their post players in every SC game. Losing the potential #1 WNBA draft pick just flat out matters.

I would also add that TN has been completely devastated by injuries over the last several years and those injuries have seriously impacted the team's results. We have 4 potential starters sitting on the bench in Mercedes, Jasmine Jones, Izzy, and Tucker. Just imagine how you would feel if Tuck, Stewart, KML, and Nurse were sitting out for the year. It's not a great feeling and I don't wish it on any team or fan base. I guess you can put me in the camp that blames injuries, but if you give TN even one of those 4 injured players then we win. SC has its original starting line up in tact. It was basically a 1 point game until the fouls started. Oh well, revenge is better than Christmas. We will see them again...

Yes losing Harrison was an enormous blow - to South Carolina. They spent the previous month developing strategies to defeat Izzy, and having her not play flummoxed the Gamecocks, and they almost lost the game because of it!

 

[Bestiarius]

I really think having this might help, courtesy of UT's website:

What this photo tells me is she probably can't dunk.

 

[Sonny44]

I don't think it's a slam dunk that Tennessee would've won with Harrison. She would have helped and been a huge factor defending the post and getting rebounds, but if she is healthy I don't think Graves has as much room to operate in the paint and put up huge numbers. I also think the rest of Tennessee's lineup was playing inspired basketball due to Harrison's injury. Realistically, this doesn't happen if Harrison is healthy.

You lose your star. Then you lose a game by one point. I think it's nothing short of disrespectful to her and most unrealistic not to assume you would have won the game. Huh, a star isn't worth a point?

 

[Tonyc]

You need to understand when a starter is sitting and you lose a game you think you should've or might've won remember this. What player or players would have to sit and their points along with their assists and rebounds would be gone. Now if the injured player is playing could that player make up how many more rebounds assists and points? In many cases the player that takes the place of the player who is sitting is not going to make that much more of an inpact then the player or players that replace her. The difference in many cases is minimal. Now if Izzy plays yes she would have blocked and altered some shots and would've scored double digits. However I watched the game and I thought the LVs moved the ball better then Ive seen before and they were not dependent on Izzy they were dependent on each other. They shared the ball well. Yes Izzy would've made a difference down low but the LVs lost by 4 points. Do you think with Izzy it would've been less or more. Don't forget if Izzy is playing who doesn't score as many points as they did. Frankly I liked the way the LVs played as a team without Izzy. I thought they looked much better then they do with her because they depend on her too much instead of playing within the flow of the game and going to her when still going to each other. The LVs played more like a team without her imo not being dependent on her. I think the LVs should grow as a team from this. Graves looked much much better. JMO.

 

[CocoHusky]

This is a very childish thread! Point, blank, period.

There are no childish threads, just childish ........ ( I'll let you fill in the blank).

 

[meyers7]

I've seen this posted in a bunch of places and I'm really not sure why you think it's a big deal. At 6'6", I'd guess she has somewhere around an 8'6" standing reach with shoes. That would put her within the range of a 18" vertical necessary to grab the rim, which is nothing to write home about. To put that into perspective, I'm a 6'1" guy who's about as unathletic as they come, and I can touch the rim. Maya Moore (who's on the upper end of athleticism for female basketball players) has a 26" inch vertical, without a running start.

Even for most top tier players who are much shorter than Russell, grabbing the rim is fairly common.

Lorin Dixon had a 1 step vertical jump of 33". SPARQ testing in HS.

 

[mhshuskies]

I'll add two:

If Turner isn't hurt, ND wins Dec. 6
If Achonwa isn't hurt, ND wins last season's national championship

Do we assume this thread is about excuses not based in realistic analysis?

 

[mhshuskies]

If Griner doesn't get mugged, L'ville doesn't make the final 4.

 

[mhshuskies]

It did, certainly. But they both played against UConn in all matchups when they were together. Duke lost plenty of games against good opponents when both played. They just lost to average teams when they didn't.

If Shea and Sveta were not injured in 2001, Notre Dame never would have won their first title and would not have been able to recruit some of the players that they have recruited...

This is based on reasonable analysis.

 

[mhshuskies]

CamrnCrz1974, this does not need to involve UCONN. For example Chelsea Gray going down didn't cost Duke a game? Alexis Jones?

How about an injury that could have helped, like say JPM WASN'T available to coach?

 

[Beemer]

How about an injury that could have helped, like say JPM WASN'T available to coach?

That is sooooo bad. But in an entirely good way

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

To the original point -

Stanford, when Harvard beat them in the 1st round of the NCAA's - 2 injuries in short order to 2 stars, I remember Nygaard, forget the other one. Something like final game and then practice before the NCAA's. Legit and the gold standard for the question raised.

OTH, Minnesota's injury to their star RB allowing Z-B to step up. Probably helped Z-B, but who knows how it has affected Minnesota which got whacked last night.

 

[Biff]

To the original point -

Stanford, when Harvard beat them in the 1st round of the NCAA's - 2 injuries in short order to 2 stars, I remember Nygaard, forget the other one. Something like final game and then practice before the NCAA's. Legit and the gold standard for the question raised.

Kristin Folkl- The great Volleyball player

 

[Oldbones]

In 1996 Final Four semi, played in a city almost bordering Tennessee, if Wolters and Elliot hadn't had phantom fouls called on them when it was they (esp Wolters) who were being mugged all game, they would have been available in OT or NO OT needed, and then a critical marginal OT foul call against Sales would not have decided the game.
In 1997, if Tennessee, despite being Tennessee, were not invited to 1997 NCAA with Ten losses and no SEC title. Instead, since they were Tennessee, they were invited. Turned out to be a good invite, dagnabbit.
Jane Appel's bad ankle in 2010 final. Worth 7 points to Stanford? Of course not.
Griner and Mulkey not getting along late-season (according to Griner) in 2013. Worth 2 points vs. Louisville? No way.
Refs waking up sooner and seeing Novosel and Diggins' flops and dives for what they were in 2011 and 2012? Worth two more UConn trips to the Final? Definitely.

 

[bballnut90]

Wait a minute. 2008, Maya Moore's freshman year. Both Mel Thomas and Kalana Greene go down to injuries. Despite this, UConn only loses one game in the regular season. With Thomas and Greene, UConn beats Stanford in the Final Four. BTW, UConn didn't lose another game for quite some time.

2008 was a really great season for women's basketball--the 2008 senior class was loaded and there were a LOT of really great teams that year (Tennessee/Stanford/LSU/North Carolina/Maryland/Rutgers/A&M/UCONN/etc.) That said, I don't think Thomas/Greene would've made a big difference against Stanford. Tara had an outstanding game plan and Stanford controlled the game. I don't think Thomas would've logged many minutes, and Greene likely would've started in place of Maya Moore, which I don't think would have been a big benefit to bring Moore off the bench. Even if they got past Stanford, they would've had to face Tennessee led by senior Candace Parker. UCONN had the historical advantage in title games head to head, but that crop of Lady Vols went 3-0 against UCONN and the 2008 team was outstanding defensively in the NCAA tournament. Everyone was hoping for that match up just after the rivalry ended and most felt Tennessee/UCONN were the two best teams in the nation that year.

 

[hoophuskee]

2008 was a really great season for women's basketball--the 2008 senior class was loaded and there were a LOT of really great teams that year (Tennessee/Stanford/LSU/North Carolina/Maryland/Rutgers/A&M/UCONN/etc.) That said, I don't think Thomas/Greene would've made a big difference against Stanford. Tara had an outstanding game plan and Stanford controlled the game. I don't think Thomas would've logged many minutes, and Greene likely would've started in place of Maya Moore, which I don't think would have been a big benefit to bring Moore off the bench. .

Everything you said here is wrong. Matter of fact most of it - isn't even close. I agree with your points later imo Tenn was the best but nothing else.

First off- Geno loved Mel Thomas - there is no way in hell she was going to play a the few minutes you suggest. He played her 31 minutes vs Stanford 1st time. vs Louisville it was 11 pt game at halftime - he played her 35. And vs Syrucuse game she got hurt it was a tough game UCONN only won by 6 she played 38 minutes. I can remember on a postgame Chris Dailey talking about how much they loved what Mel Thomas did that the average fan couldn't see. I can't remember exacly what - and I'm not saying anything right or wrong- but there is no way in hell they weren't going to play Mel near 30 mintues if not more.

Secondly the game plan you suggest Tara was so great with in game 2 was the exact same strategy she employed in game 1 of the 2nd half. The difference between the 2 was in game 1 UCONN had 5 shooters that had a mid-range game and out vs in game 2 they had just 3 and Swanier got into foul trouble. Look at game 2 box-- KG had 15 BECAUSE Tara played same defense of triangle-and-two - and the two she used were against Mel and Renee, or Mel and Maya, or if Mel left, it was Renee and Maya. Why do you think Kalana took 11 2nd half shots while Mel Thomas only took 1? Tara has done this with UCONN even recently when for example she left Moriah Jefferson wide open. Bottomline is the players you are downplaying (Mel and KG) are the ones that Tara had to use in her triangle to guard (Mel) and Kalana was the one that knocked down shots to beat Tara's junk defense because she also felt she needed to put a player on Mel thus allowing KG to take 11 2nd half shots.

Also - look at the 1st half stats when UCONN built the 9 point lead. The 17 minutes Mel Thomas played UCONN was "plus 10." It's no accident legenadary coach Tara V in the 2nd half threw up a triangle defense in which one of the 2 guarded Mel. She took just 1 shot in the 2nd half because that was tara's designed defense. In our 2nd meeting they stuck the triangle on Maya and Renee - and all we had was Keita who was in foul trouble and lost her rhythm.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/datadump/WBasketball/2008/stats/stan1.htm#GAME.BX1

Third- you are completely missing what UCONN was in 2008 if you think Maya would have been denied a starter because of Kalana. Maya played most of her minutes at pf. She was inevitably taking minutes from Charde who was in the doghouse quite a bit her senior year. Therefore Kalana would have been starting along with Maya thus we would have had four shooters on the floor that would have been able to combat Tara's junk defense.

I'll reiterate I don't think we could have beaten Tenn but the Stanford game we needed Mel and Kalana and would have beaten them if they were there.

 

[hoophuskee]

In Maya's senior year 2 of the calls on Dolson were terribly nitpicky. We lost EDD and another kid that went to Ne Zealand before season started so we were thin in the post. ND was able ot take advantage of refs calling nitpick fouls on Dolson which made UCONN very small. non-nitpicky refs that shouldn't have made at least one if not two calls early - then we probably win. Maya was on fire.

 

[bballnut90]

Everything you said here is wrong. Matter of fact most of it - isn't even close. I agree with your points later imo Tenn was the best but nothing else.

First off- Geno loved Mel Thomas - there is no way in hell she was going to play a the few minutes you suggest. He played her 31 minutes vs Stanford 1st time. vs Louisville it was 11 pt game at halftime - he played her 35. And vs Syrucuse game she got hurt it was a tough game UCONN only won by 6 she played 38 minutes. I can remember on a postgame Chris Dailey talking about how much they loved what Mel Thomas did that the average fan couldn't see. I can't remember exacly what - and I'm not saying anything right or wrong- but there is no way in hell they weren't going to play Mel near 30 mintues if not more.

Secondly the game plan you suggest Tara was so great with in game 2 was the exact same strategy she employed in game 1 of the 2nd half. The difference between the 2 was in game 1 UCONN had 5 shooters that had a mid-range game and out vs in game 2 they had just 3 and Swanier got into foul trouble. Look at game 2 box-- KG had 15 BECAUSE Tara played same defense of triangle-and-two - and the two she used were against Mel and Renee, or Mel and Maya, or if Mel left, it was Renee and Maya. Why do you think Kalana took 11 2nd half shots while Mel Thomas only took 1? Tara has done this with UCONN even recently when for example she left Moriah Jefferson wide open. Bottomline is the players you are downplaying (Mel and KG) are the ones that Tara had to use in her triangle to guard (Mel) and Kalana was the one that knocked down shots to beat Tara's junk defense because she also felt she needed to put a player on Mel thus allowing KG to take 11 2nd half shots.

Also - look at the 1st half stats when UCONN built the 9 point lead. The 17 minutes Mel Thomas played UCONN was "plus 10." It's no accident legenadary coach Tara V in the 2nd half threw up a triangle defense in which one of the 2 guarded Mel. She took just 1 shot in the 2nd half because that was tara's designed defense. In our 2nd meeting they stuck the triangle on Maya and Renee - and all we had was Keita who was in foul trouble and lost her rhythm.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/datadump/WBasketball/2008/stats/stan1.htm#GAME.BX1

Third- you are completely missing what UCONN was in 2008 if you think Maya would have been denied a starter because of Kalana. Maya played most of her minutes at pf. She was inevitably taking minutes from Charde who was in the doghouse quite a bit her senior year. Therefore Kalana would have been starting along with Maya thus we would have had four shooters on the floor that would have been able to combat Tara's junk defense.

I'll reiterate I don't think we could have beaten Tenn but the Stanford game we needed Mel and Kalana and would have beaten them if they were there.

Few comments on this--I wasn't wrong on everything as you implied. The only comment you're discrediting that I agree I was probably wrong about is the number of minutes that Thomas plays. For some reason I remember Geno not giving her big minutes in big games, but as I look through box scores in 2007 and 2008 I see he did give her big minutes in big games.

In regards to Stanford's game plan-I never saw the first game and do not recall specifics defenses that Stanford used, but in the national semifinals their ball movement and offensive execution was outstanding. They shredded UCONN's defense and put up 82 points, had 20 assists to just 11 turnovers and thoroughly outplayed Connecticut. Also, per Stanford's press release, this was stated which shows Tara DID have a different game plan on the offensive side, "The changes VanDerveer made - basically modifying her offense to revolve around two post players rather than one - increased the production of Wiggins' supporting cast."

Most signficant, Stanford was a MUCH better team by the end of the season than the first go around, where UCONN peaked earlier in the year. Some of that may have been influenced by the season ending injuries, but UCONN wasn't playing inspired basketball at the end of 2008. Houston and Charles were in Geno's dog house, UCONN struggled to beat Georgetown in the Regional Semis and also had a tough time against Rutgers (granted, everybody struggled against Rutgers during that era.) Shortly before the tournament they barely escaped against a bad DePaul team and struggled against Louisville in the BE Championship. Stanford on the other hand rode into the Final Four on a 22 game win streak, Wiggins was putting up ridiculous numbers in the tournament, they beat #1 seed Maryland by double figures and The Card was playing their best basketball of the season. This cannot be overlooked, as Stanford was a completely different team by the end of the 2008. In a more extreme case which illustrates this point, Rutgers lost 80-40 against Duke the year before but improved immensely as the season went on while Duke peaked too early, and Rutgers was able to beat Duke in the NCAA tournament. Just because UCONN rolled against Stanford the 1st time doesn't mean they would have done the same the second time.

Also-your last point about Maya being a starter-Maya never started when Greene was healthy. She earned starter minutes, but she came off the bench in all 8 games. When Greene went down she entered the starting 5, but she would've most likely continued to come off the bench all season had Greene and Thomas stayed healthy. Against Stanford, Moore was one of UCONN's bright spots with 20 points, 9 rebounds, 3 blocks, 3 assists and 2 steals in 37 minutes. She wasn't going to get 37 minutes of playing time coming off the bench both halves.