If Big Ten expands again in a few years, keep an eye on Kansas and Oklahoma

[SubZero]

I wonder if we've become toxic in realignment since our state lawmakers showed how little it took for them to sue other schools, their presidents, and their ADs. We need to wash off this stink ASAP.

There's no way that garbage schools like Rutgers and Maryland get picked befor we do.

 

[Seaa Blue]

Don't disagree. My point is simply that not being AAU isn't a stumbling block if they wanted us because they've got the ability to change that pretty much at will.

About that... Mary Sue Coleman, past president of the University of Michigan, is now the president of the AAU... Might need to wait a year or two for anything to change.

 

[huskymedic]

There's no way that garbage schools like Rutgers and Maryland get picked befor we do.

We all poke fun @ Syracuse, BC and Rutgers but I'm curious what your beef w/ Maryland is?

You keep saying it over and over in threads - tell me why Maryland is a "garbage school" compared to other P5 schools. By what metrics?

 

[dayooper]

Ok fine so we get invited by the Big Ten and THEN get invited into the AAU, ala Mich State. And if you're such a know-it-all about the AAU, why did Nebraska get kicked out around the same time as the Big Ten invite?

The Big10 invite had nothing to do with getting kicked out of the AAU. Nebraska's metrics were low and when the AAU started to devalue the agriculture grants, their metrics became even lower. Many of the USDA Ag grants aren't based merit based and the change in the metrics put Nebraska's numbers below the threshold. Interestingly enough, Michigan and Wisconsin led the charge to get Nebraska kicked out. They had tried a year earlier, but didn't have the votes to do so. In 2011, they finally had the votes to remove them. Syracuse voluntarily left after the Nebraska vote because they knew their numbers were too low as well.

That's exactly what they did with Michigan State.

I have a hard time using MSU as a data point as it was almost 70 years ago they were admitted into the Big10. Who knows what the wishes of the Big10 schools were then in regard to being AAU (I highly doubt it was a big deal then). MSU, known as Michigan State College at the time, were one three schools being considered (Pitt and Nebraska being the other two). Pitt wasn't in the AAU at the time either. They didn't join until 1974.

 

[dayooper]

We all poke fun @ Syracuse, BC and Rutgers but I'm curious what your beef w/ Maryland is?

You keep saying it over and over in threads - tell me why Maryland is a "garbage school" compared to other P5 schools. By what metrics?

 

[huskyrob1]

We all poke fun @ Syracuse, BC and Rutgers but I'm curious what your beef w/ Maryland is?

You keep saying it over and over in threads - tell me why Maryland is a "garbage school" compared to other P5 schools. By what metrics?

Given the historical rivalries with all four of these schools, I'm sure the UConn administration doesn't refer to any of them as garbage schools. The home & home with Maryland four years ago saw two hard fought games. UConn women's basketball has a big rivalry with Maryland.

If Uconn ever does get a P5 invite these four schools will figure prominently in the process. I know on the ACC side historically there are some hard feelings CR wise, but poking fun doesn't serve UConn well at this point. What does serve UConn well are good athletic relationships with all four schools.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I don't see the Big Ten going after Kansas by itself.....compare Kansas to UConn for example....

University of Connecticut....pluses

Great basketball tradition....4 National Championships since 1999.
Excellent academics.....ranking of 60
18 national Championships in other sports.
Brings the NY and New England market to the Big Ten. One hundred miles around Storrs is the NY to Boston corridor with thousands upon thousands of TV's tuned in to the BTN. Reinvigorates Rutgers with an old rivalry.

minuses...A crappy football program, but excellent facilities and a new coach. Hopefully some improvement on the horizon.


University of Kansas..pluses

Great basketball tradition....2 National Championships in the NCAA modern era.

minuses.. academically ranked 118.
Crappy football program.
Only thing within one hundred miles of Lawrence, Kansas....thousands upon thousands acres of corn.

This is pretty silly. I'm probably the most unbiased person here in looking at this comparison, since I went to both schools.

Basketball: 4 championships or not, KU is quite a bit ahead of UConn. More fans, bigger name, in tournament every single year. They are a top 4 team nationally with Duke, UNC and Kentucky.

Football: as bad as it is, KU is probably ahead of UConn here too, but it's close.

Academics: UConn better at USNWR, but that's mostly because of a state law in KS requiring them to accept many in state freshmen with minimum qualifications. They are AAU, and at the graduate and research level, which is what the B1G cares about, well ahead of UConn. Call it a tie.

Population: Similar. KU is very close to KC (40 miles to downtown, much less to the major suburbs) and Topeka, and has a wide ranging fan base. Storrs is almost 30 miles to Hartford.

Endowment: UConn $377M. KU: $1.86 Billion. This is often viewed as a measure of alumni interest and enthusiasm.

Campus attractiveness: Both are nice looking campuses, but as far as things to do when traveling there, Lawrence beats Storrs by miles as a college town. It's driveable from many of the schools that would be in the B1g West.

By the way, they don't really grow much corn near Lawrence. Kansas is wheat country.

 

[Rufus]

I'm not sure why anyone would call Maryland or Rutgers "garbage schools". Even if you are only referring to athletics, Maryland still isn't a "garbage school". In fact, Maryland has won more B1G Championships in all sports than any other B1G school since joining the B1G. This past year alone, Maryland won 9 B1G Championships if you include both regular season and tournament championships. Second place Ohio State and Penn State each won 6 championships this past year. Michigan and Minnesota won 5 each. Rutgers was the only B1G school to not win a conference championship, as the Scarlet Knights have yet to win a conference championship in the B1G.

Overall 2016-2017 conference championship breakdown by school:


Illinois - 1 (Men's Golf)

Indiana - 2 (Men's Swimming & Diving, Men's Indoor Track & Field)

Iowa - 1 (Baseball Tournament)

Maryland - 9 (Field Hockey Regular Season, Men's Soccer Regular Season, Men's Soccer Tournament, Women's Basketball Regular Season*, Women's Basketball Tournament, Men's Lacrosse Regular Season, Men's Lacrosse Tournament, Women's Lacrosse Regular Season, Women's Lacrosse Tournament)

Michigan - 5 (Women's Cross Country, Women's Swimming & Diving, Men's Basketball Tournament, Women's Gymnastics Regular Season, Women's Gymnastics Tournament)

Michigan State - 1 (Women's Golf)

Minnesota - 5 (Women's Soccer Regular Season*, Women's Soccer Tournament, Men's Ice Hockey Regular Season, Softball Regular Season, Softball Tournament)

Nebraska - 2 (Women's Volleyball, Baseball Regular Season)

Northwestern - 1 (Women's Soccer Regular Season*)

Ohio State - 6 (Women's Basketball Regular Season*, Wrestling, Men's Gymnastics, Women's Tennis, Men's Tennis, Women's Rowing)

Penn State - 6 (Field Hockey Tournament, Women's Soccer Regular Season*, Football, Women's Indoor Track & Field, Men's Ice Hockey Tournament, Men's Outdoor Track & Field)

Purdue - 2 (Men's Basketball Regular Season, Women's Outdoor Track & Field)

Rutgers - 0

Wisconsin - 1 (Men's Cross Country)

*= regular season co-champions

 

[CL82]

This is pretty silly. I'm probably the most unbiased person here in looking at this comparison, since I went to both schools.

Basketball: 4 championships or not, KU is quite a bit ahead of UConn. More fans, bigger name, in tournament every single year. They are a top 4 team nationally with Duke, UNC and Kentucky.

Football: as bad as it is, KU is probably ahead of UConn here too, but it's close.

Academics: UConn better at USNWR, but that's mostly because of a state law in KS requiring them to accept many in state freshmen with minimum qualifications. They are AAU, and at the graduate and research level, which is what the B1G cares about, well ahead of UConn. Call it a tie.

Population: Similar. KU is very close to KC (40 miles to downtown, much less to the major suburbs) and Topeka, and has a wide ranging fan base. Storrs is almost 30 miles to Hartford.

Endowment: UConn $377M. KU: $1.86 Billion. This is often viewed as a measure of alumni interest and enthusiasm.

Campus attractiveness: Both are nice looking campuses, but as far as things to do when traveling there, Lawrence beats Storrs by miles as a college town. It's driveable from many of the schools that would be in the B1g West.

By the way, they don't really grow much corn near Lawrence. Kansas is wheat country.

Interesting comparison. I have a couple of different data points.

Population:
Connecticut - 3.58 million
Kansas - 2.91 million

Academics:
Not the be all and end all but USNWR rankings: UConn 60, Kansas 118.

 

[huskyrob1]

This is pretty silly. I'm probably the most unbiased person here in looking at this comparison, since I went to both schools.

Basketball: 4 championships or not, KU is quite a bit ahead of UConn. More fans, bigger name, in tournament every single year. They are a top 4 team nationally with Duke, UNC and Kentucky.

Football: as bad as it is, KU is probably ahead of UConn here too, but it's close.

Academics: UConn better at USNWR, but that's mostly because of a state law in KS requiring them to accept many in state freshmen with minimum qualifications. They are AAU, and at the graduate and research level, which is what the B1G cares about, well ahead of UConn. Call it a tie.

Population: Similar. KU is very close to KC (40 miles to downtown, much less to the major suburbs) and Topeka, and has a wide ranging fan base. Storrs is almost 30 miles to Hartford.

Endowment: UConn $377M. KU: $1.86 Billion. This is often viewed as a measure of alumni interest and enthusiasm.

Campus attractiveness: Both are nice looking campuses, but as far as things to do when traveling there, Lawrence beats Storrs by miles as a college town. It's driveable from many of the schools that would be in the B1g West.

By the way, they don't really grow much corn near Lawrence. Kansas is wheat country.

Ok, whatever. You should call up Jim Delaney and tell him he should have added Kansas instead of Rutgers. Maybe he doesn't know that the NY - Boston market pales in comparison to KC. Also you seem pretty flippant with your basketball and football comparison, especially coming from a UConn fan.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Interesting comparison. I have a couple of different data points.

Population:
Connecticut - 3.58 million
Kansas - 2.91 million

Academics:
Not the be all and end all but USNWR rankings: UConn 60, Kansas 118.

Kansas is 40 miles from Missouri, and draws heavily from KC metro, much of which is not in that statewide number. The KC and Hartford/NH markets are pretty comparable, especially if you add Wichita. TV market wise, I do think UConn has the edge because of greater density. Actual number of fans who attend games? KU has the edge.

I mentioned USNWR. Acknowledged that UConn leads easily there. That is undergrads. But on the research side, and grad school side, which is what the Big Ten values, KU has the edge. So overall, it's about a wash.

Ideally I want the B1G to take both of them! But it won't happen.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Ok, whatever. You should call up Jim Delaney and tell him he should have added Kansas instead of Rutgers. Maybe he doesn't know that the NY - Boston market pales in comparison to KC. Also you seem pretty flippant with your basketball and football comparison, especially coming from a UConn fan.

I really think that people who still maintain that the UConn basketball program is on the same footing as Kansas are delusional. In 2011, it probably was, or was close. Now, with Calhoun gone and UConn in the American? It's not close anymore. The top four teams, all time, in wins are UK, KU, UNC and Duke. Those are also the only four schools with a lifetime winning percentage over 70%.

In football I called it a tie. How is that "flippant"? KU won an Orange Bowl and had a top ten finish in the last decade. Both teams are very much down the last 5-6 years, KU being even worse than UConn over that time. But as recently as 2008, KU averaged over 50k in attendance.

UConn has a TV market edge for sure, due to penetration in metro NY. There is no question. KU has more overall national appeal.

 

[huskyrob1]

Kansas is 40 miles from Missouri, and draws heavily from KC metro, much of which is not in that statewide number. The KC and Hartford/NH markets are pretty comparable, especially if you add Wichita. TV market wise, I do think UConn has the edge because of greater density. Actual number of fans who attend games? KU has the edge.

I mentioned USNWR. Acknowledged that UConn leads easily there. That is undergrads. But on the research side, and grad school side, which is what the Big Ten values, KU has the edge. So overall, it's about a wash.

Ideally I want the B1G to take both of them! But it won't happen.

UConn Medical school is ranked ahead of the University of Kansas medical School for it's research. Just checked.

 

[huskyrob1]

You seem very

I really think that people who still maintain that the UConn basketball program is on the same footing as Kansas are delusional. In 2011, it probably was, or was close. Now, with Calhoun gone and UConn in the American? It's not close anymore. The top four teams, all time, in wins are UK, KU, UNC and Duke. Those are also the only four schools with a lifetime winning percentage over 70%.

In football I called it a tie. How is that "flippant"? KU won an Orange Bowl and had a top ten finish in the last decade. Both teams are very much down the last 5-6 years, KU being even worse than UConn over that time. But as recently as 2008, KU averaged over 50k in attendance.

UConn has a TV market edge for sure, due to penetration in metro NY. There is no question. KU has more overall national appeal.

You seem very very pessimistic about UCONN's basketball program going forward. To me, a fan, it's a bump in the road, to you it's a death spiral just to make a point. Would Kansas have been half the team they were last year if they'd had the same amount of injuries?

 

[CL82]

Kansas is 40 miles from Missouri, and draws heavily from KC metro, much of which is not in that statewide number. The KC and Hartford/NH markets are pretty comparable, especially if you add Wichita. TV market wise, I do think UConn has the edge because of greater density. Actual number of fans who attend games? KU has the edge.

I mentioned USNWR. Acknowledged that UConn leads easily there. That is undergrads. But on the research side, and grad school side, which is what the Big Ten values, KU has the edge. So overall, it's about a wash.

Ideally I want the B1G to take both of them! But it won't happen.

Connecticut draws from outside of it's borders as well and in a very densely populated area. A UConn team in the B1G would have reach into NYC, Boston, Providence as well as Hartford and the densely populated southeastern corner of the state. It is tough to quantify those numbers for either school based upon info that is readily available, but I'm inclined to think that the population density of the Northeast favors UConn.

When was Kansas's last apparel or media rights (like our IMG deal) deal? That might be a good proxy for value. I don't have the CT #s but someone on the board will.

Kansas frightens me a little because there is a lot of overlap between them and Connecticut. Connecticut's biggest chip is probably our NYC proximity, if the B1G really intends to strengthen its east coast presence.

I really think that people who still maintain that the UConn basketball program is on the same footing as Kansas are delusional. In 2011, it probably was, or was close. Now, with Calhoun gone and UConn in the American? It's not close anymore. The top four teams, all time, in wins are UK, KU, UNC and Duke. Those are also the only four schools with a lifetime winning percentage over 70%.

Tough argument to make when Connecticut has won two national championships since Kansas' last one in 2008.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You seem very

You seem very very pessimistic about UConn's basketball program going forward. To me, a fan, it's a bump in the road, to you it's a death spiral just to make a point. Would Kansas have been half the team they were last year if they'd had the same amount of injuries?

I'm not pessimistic. Check the hoops board. But there's a reason that if UConn goes after some big recruit and people see Kansas is also targeting him, that we assume we have no chance. I'm a realist. Ollie isn't Calhoun. The American isn't the Big East. UConn hasn't won a regular season title in this non P5 league, KU has won 13 in a row. KU currently has a streak of 28 consecutive appearances in the NCAA tournament, the longest ever (passing UNC under Dean Smith last year). I want UConn to be back to what it was. It's going to be very difficult.

 

[Guapo]

Connecticut draws from outside of it's borders as well and in a very densely populated area. A UConn team in the B1G would have reach into NYC, Boston, Providence as well as Hartford and the densely populated southeastern corner of the state. It is tough to quantify those numbers for either school based upon info that is readily available, but I'm inclined to think that the population density of the Northeast favors UConn.

When was Kansas's last apparel or media rights (like our IMG deal) deal? That might be a good proxy for value. I don't have the CT #s but someone on the board will.

Kansas frightens me a little because there is a lot of overlap between them and Connecticut. Connecticut's biggest chip is probably our NYC proximity, if the B1G really intends to strengthen its east coast presence.



Tough argument to make when Connecticut has won two national championships since Kansas' last one in 2008.

Eh, I'm as big of a UConn fan as they come but even im willing to admit there's more to what makes a program "historically great" than number of national championships.

I also think UConn has a very solid and passionate fanbase, but it's not KU's. College sports fandom is just different in the Midwest and South than in the northeast and I think many people in CT simply do not understand what it's like.

All that being said, I think UConn has plenty of things that make it attractive to the Big 10 and I really hope to be invited one day.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Connecticut draws from outside of it's borders as well and in a very densely populated area. A UConn team in the B1G would have reach into NYC, Boston, Providence as well as Hartford and the densely populated southeastern corner of the state. It is tough to quantify those numbers for either school based upon info that is readily available, but I'm inclined to think that the population density of the Northeast favors UConn.

When was Kansas's last apparel or media rights (like our IMG deal) deal? That might be a good proxy for value. I don't have the CT #s but someone on the board will.

Kansas frightens me a little because there is a lot of overlap between them and Connecticut. Connecticut's biggest chip is probably our NYC proximity, if the B1G really intends to strengthen its east coast presence.

Tough argument to make when Connecticut has won two national championships since Kansas' last one in 2008.

UConn has the #6 IMG type rights deal. http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...sive-the-top-25-ncaa-marketing-deals.html#g21 Nebraska is #2, so in my mind, there is some weird stuff in those numbers.

KU is #18. I don't think UConn will get close to as much next time unfortunately. I hope we do.

I don't know what the B1G will do. Would love UConn to end up there. I think the ACC is more likely though. Much more likely. I think KU/OU is a pretty good fit for the B1G if they want to expand. I'm not sure they do. UConn certainly has the media market edge when you factor in NYC penetration. No doubt about it.

 

[Adios]

New England has 14 million people. Not everyone in Kansas and Oklahoma (or Missouri) cares for OU or KU.

 

[CL82]

UConn has the #6 IMG type rights deal. http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...sive-the-top-25-ncaa-marketing-deals.html#g21 Nebraska is #2, so in my mind, there is some weird stuff in those numbers.

KU is #18. I don't think UConn will get close to as much next time unfortunately. I hope we do.

I don't know what the B1G will do. Would love UConn to end up there. I think the ACC is more likely though. Much more likely. I think KU/OU is a pretty good fit for the B1G if they want to expand. I'm not sure they do. UConn certainly has the media market edge when you factor in NYC penetration. No doubt about it.

Nice find on the marketing rights deal. I think it is a decent proxy for value. I am very interested in our next deal. Our apparel sales are still solid, so I think that we'll get a good deal from Nike which is another indicator of brand value.

FWIW, I don't think either Kansas or UConn are B1G bound. Where they rank vis-à-vis each other among BiG decision makers is going to depend on weighting of criteria. My guess is that Kansas could have an edge unless they want to expand or solidify an east coast presence.

Good discussion.

 

[huskymedic]

When was Kansas's last apparel or media rights (like our IMG deal) deal? That might be a good proxy for value. I don't have the CT #s but someone on the board will.

UConn has the #6 IMG type rights deal. http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...sive-the-top-25-ncaa-marketing-deals.html#g21 Nebraska is #2, so in my mind, there is some weird stuff in those numbers.

KU is #18. I don't think UConn will get close to as much next time unfortunately. I hope we do.

KU extended their contract w/ Adidas in 2013 for an additional 6 years through 2019 for average of $4.3m a year ($26m overall). UConn Nike deal back in 2008 was for average of $4.5m. A lot has happened since then...

 

[HuskyHawk]

Nice find on the media rights deal. I think it is a decent proxy for value. I am very interested in our next deal. Our apparel sales are still solid, so I think that we'll get a good deal from Nike which is another indicator of brand value.

FWIW, I don't think either Kansas or UConn are B1G bound. Where they rank vis-à-vis each other among BiG decision makers is going to depend on weighting of criteria. My guess is that Kansas could have an edge unless they want to expand or solidify an east coast presence.

Good discussion.

Agreed. All of these choices are weighting of criteria, and the criteria change by conference and circumstance. B1G needed better football brand? Nebraska. Needed TV sets for BTN? Rutgers and Maryland. ACC needed football and needed to placate FSU, Clemson and GT? Louisville. All of those come with sacrifices in some areas.

We have no idea what these conferences will be looking for next. The things I think give UConn an edge that nobody mentioned are women's hoops, hockey and soccer. It seem silly, but the BTN needs multi-sport content, and the women are a huge draw. So even though I think the KU men's program is more valuable than ours, they get clobbered in the olympic sports area.

 

[HuskyHawk]

New England has 14 million people. Not everyone in Kansas and Oklahoma (or Missouri) cares for OU or KU.

Not many of those 14 million care about college sports at all, let alone UConn. UConn has a lot going for it, let's not pretend that the population of New England is one of them.

I'm a UConn fan, I have always pulled for UConn above all others, including head to head with KU. I was quite sad watching us lose in Kemper with my law school friends. I think we were ranked #2.

 

[huskyrob1]

Not many of those 14 million care about college sports at all, let alone UConn. UConn has a lot going for it, let's not pretend that the population of New England is one of them.

If 14 million people in UCONN's backyard don't care about Uconn, then explain why a Uconn women's basketball game in the NY market outdraws major D1 college football telecasts.

 

[HuskyHawk]

If 14 million people in UConn's backyard don't care about UConn, then explain why a UConn women's basketball game in the NY market outdraws major D1 college football telecasts.

Because the women are really popular nationwide. More than the men, actually. But I don't think the population of Maine, NH and VT have anything to do with UConn. UConn isn't a thing in any of those states. It's probably more popular in Los Angeles.