Ice and Jana....what am I missing?

[hoophuskee]

After 8 games, I think a clear pattern is emerging. Ice continues to start each game and plays 30% more minutes than Jana. Yet, I would posit that Jana is more impactful in games. I can't speak to any differences in practices but in actual games, here is what I refer to: Jana leads Ice in total rebounds 46 to 33, Jana has twice as many steals, and Jana leads in points 58 to 49. At the same time, Jana has less fouls 14 to 19, and less turnovers 9 to 12.

Thanks to the great analysis supplied by JRRRJ, we can also compare Ice and Jana on a "per 40 minutes" basis. When we do, the far greater positive contribution of Jana is even more clear: Jana out rebounds Ice 14.15 to 7.81, she gets 2 and a half times as many steals and out scores Ice by 17.85 to 11.6.

The only area where Ice greatly bests Jana is in assists but I think that is explained by being less aggressive when she gets the ball under the basket. When Jana gets such possessions, her mindset is to score, while Ice simply scores less and will often look to outlet the ball rather than taking it to the hoop.

My point is I hope clear, Jana simply contributes more to our winning than Ice and the actual in game statistics make that clear. With a quarter of the season in the books, I think we need to recognize her greater contribution and give her the majority of minutes rather than playing a back up role.

Ice is more efficient offensively and a much better passer. You can't just look at fg%. TS% is much more accurate. And passing stats show the 2nd to be true. You want better passers to get the ball to Paige, Azzi and Sarah.

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[OldSchooler]

Jana could improve her "upside" chances if she would improve her foul-shooting.

 

[DEpup]

I think this is very on brand for Geno. Ice has more experience and manages the game at the onset where as Jana is still raw and a bit emotional which is not something you want at the beginning of a game.

In a starting line up, Ice isn't the scoring focal point. Her role is to defend, set screen, and get the ball to folks like Paige, Sarah, and Azzi. I think she is doing that well.

Jana is playing later in games often with other newbies where she can be a focal point.

I think they are both coming along in their roles.

Let's be honest, Chen and Ice will always be working to make things possible for Paige, Sarah, and Azzi to score.

 

[hoophuskee]

Jana could improve her "upside" chances if she would improve her foul-shooting.

This is so underrated yet so important. It goes under the radar until you lose.

 

[Sifaka]

Interesting that the thread starter omitted defense from the analysis. Geno, I suspect, gives it serious consideration.

 

[cohenzone]

I guess i understand why these questions come up, but i think there is a bit of very premature conclusions. Jana is just where Ice was last year. She missed all of last year and it wasn’t just any year, it was to have been her first year, so she has nothing to fall back on. We all know that bigs often take longer to get up to speed.let alone missing year one. Ice is coming through her learning curve pretty well. Hopefully Jana is too. There are signs. .

 

[BBallF]

Interesting that the thread starter omitted defense from the analysis. Geno, I suspect, gives it serious consideration.

Very serious consideration. The floor game, which is also high on Geno's list, is traditionally defined as defense, rebounding, assists, steals, loose balls and not points. You have experience in Ice you don't have in Jana. Let Geno bring Jana along. It's all about March and April not December. He's not bad at it.

 

[BBallF]

This is so underrated yet so important. It goes under the radar until you lose.

Exactly. I had a friend who also played college hoops and he had a coach who was fond of saying that you can often see the difference in the game by looking at the free throws. We have been talking about this regularly. Since her second shot is usually dead on, I think the only think that is needed is the same thing you need to get to Carnegie Hall.

 

[oldhusky]

Tossing in some more data to chew on -- a simple efficiency number for each player. It represents good things (pts, RB, etc.) minus bad things (TO, missed shots) per game. No attempt to determine the likely cost of each bad thing, not including fouls, not taking opponent into consideration, etc., etc. Those things (and some other useful data) would require parsing the play-by-play listings and I am successfully resisting that so far.

Note that the values are on a per-game basis, not per-40.

The actual formula: = ((Pts+TRB+Asst+Stl+Blk) – ((FGA-FGM)+(FTA-FTM)+TO))

if this looks like it could be useful, let me know whether you'd like me to leave it in the spreadsheet and/or add it to the per-40 grid as well.

Have fun.

The Huskies to date with my efficiency value in the far-right column:
View attachment 105372

The thing to remember about efficiency numbers is that they still are affected by minutes played per game. Yes there are negatives to offset positives in the stats, but almost all players have a positive efficiency number and if you play twice as many minutes per game your efficiency at the same rate would be twice as high. Efficiency per game divided by minutes per game would be a better indicator, and elevate Jana over Ice by a sizable margin, and Azzi farther ahead of KK, Ash, and Kaitlin.

 

[Longtime fan]

After 8 games, I think a clear pattern is emerging. Ice continues to start each game and plays 30% more minutes than Jana. Yet, I would posit that Jana is more impactful in games. I can't speak to any differences in practices but in actual games, here is what I refer to: Jana leads Ice in total rebounds 46 to 33, Jana has twice as many steals, and Jana leads in points 58 to 49. At the same time, Jana has less fouls 14 to 19, and less turnovers 9 to 12.

Thanks to the great analysis supplied by JRRRJ, we can also compare Ice and Jana on a "per 40 minutes" basis. When we do, the far greater positive contribution of Jana is even more clear: Jana out rebounds Ice 14.15 to 7.81, she gets 2 and a half times as many steals and out scores Ice by 17.85 to 11.6.

The only area where Ice greatly bests Jana is in assists but I think that is explained by being less aggressive when she gets the ball under the basket. When Jana gets such possessions, her mindset is to score, while Ice simply scores less and will often look to outlet the ball rather than taking it to the hoop.

My point is I hope clear, Jana simply contributes more to our winning than Ice and the actual in game statistics make that clear. With a quarter of the season in the books, I think we need to recognize her greater contribution and give her the majority of minutes rather than playing a back up role.

I think we need them both. Each has a far higher ceiling than we have seen. Be patient.

 

[JellyBean]

There is nothing to miss between Ice and Jana. They both are making improvements, helping the team, and doing whatever needs to be done out there on the court.

 

[Cuango]

Huh? Let’s address some of these points:
Cochran in her 5 years of WCBB has alway had foul trouble issues including 3 games this year against UCLA, Colorado and Oklahoma where she fouled out. Ice did not create those fouls. Ice has zero back to the basket moves and consistently uses a fall away jumper as her in the paint move. Her outside shooting isn’t just “suspect”-it’s downright terrible so “spreading the floor” isn’t going to work against smart teams who will dare Ice to shoot.
Jana is still learning the elite competition game and she is improving but Ice deserves to start…for now. Ultimately Jana will be the post player and maybe Ice’s shooting will improve to warrant playing her at the same time.

A little harsh on the “zero back to the basket” moves. I have seen her repeatedly posting up and scoring on back to the basket moves! Yes, she does not do it nearly enough and is still not very good at it when she does attempt them but credit where credit is due, she is trying (and more often succeeding) than she ever has before! Geno has been encouraging her to use mor post up moves down low and I think she is (slowly) getting more confident in her ability to be successful there. Obviously it is not a “strength” and may never be, but she is at least making an effort. I’m actually quite pleased with both our bigs. Sure, I’d like to see Jana get more minutes but I think Geno has it well in hand.

 

[oldude]

Some BY’ers have alluded to this, but I will say it more directly. There is a big difference in UConn’s offensive flow and movement when Ice is in the game vs Jana. Ice moves better, sets screens, posts in the paint and also steps outside. When the ball finds Ice, she makes a quick decision to pass it or shoot it. In short, Ice understands the offense. She’s also better at playing team defense, i.e. switching, body position, etc.

That’s not to say that Jana isn’t good and getting better. Jana posts up like a bull in a China shop. She can rebound in traffic. I love Jana’s ability to score with either hand around the basket. She will eventually start and play big minutes for the Huskies. Whether that happens this year or next remains to be seen.

For now, I am ecstatic that UConn has two talented players that can play in the post.

 

[packwrap]

This made me howl.

Ice v Jana, a beautiful problem to have. They both have a similar game and are both getting good minutes. Ice a bit more mobile, Jana a better rebounder.

They are both still so young and developing each game.

I look forward to a big line up of Ice, Jana, Sarah, Morgan (all fr and sophs) and for now Paige. That group can go to war with SC, TX and UCLA, and for next few seasons.

To be fair, both Ice and Jana have it in their game to progress to 30% 3pt shooters.

 

[Bone Dog]

To be fair, both Ice and Jana have it in their game to progress to 30% 3pt shooters.

Jana was a fair 3pt shooter in high school. Also an excellent free throw shooter, which she definitely is not at present. It can be useful for the bigs to be able to shoot the occasional 3, but I hope it doesn’t distract from Jana’s true strengths in the low post.

 

[HuskyNan]

Jana is 0-3, 0%, from three

 

[packwrap]

Jana was a fair 3pt shooter in high school. Also an excellent free throw shooter, which she definitely is not at present. It can be useful for the bigs to be able to shoot the occasional 3, but I hope it doesn’t distract from Jana’s true strengths in the low post.

Geno wants his posts to be able to shoot the 3. It allows them to pull their defender out from under the basket, and for the threat of the little pick and roll to the perimeter for a jump shot to be credible. Dolson, Walker, Dorka, Stewie and now Strong offer this option. A one dimensional classic post not so highly valued by Geno.

I lump forwards and centers together, as that's the way they play at UConn.

Don't worry, they will all also still be posting up. It's not an accident though when you see our bigs at the perimeter, it's right where coach wants them to be.

 

[MooseJaw]

Good problem to have. Keep in mind that when Jana comes into the game it is often to play against the oppositions sub. Not to demean Jana, who will be a top 5 in WCBB. Give her time to shake off a long injury time off. The girl has serious potential and upside. Don't think so, name any teams 2nd 5 that you would want over Jana.

 

[DefenseBB]

Dear JRRRJ, Keep the "stats" and the explanations coming. A question: if you
include the Efficiency rating will it be for the most recent game? I always look
for the rating on the box score stuff and it is just one of any number of things
that I like to "peruse". My favorite "stat" however is the "eye test"...watching
the game. Since I look at "" in every game I don't need it in your summary, but I do appreciate these additional ways of enjoying the HUSKIES. THANKS, Z

FYI, the Efficiency stat is a commonly used statistic and not one that JRRRJ created. I have used this stat to assess POY and AA candidates for two+ years and have posted about it numerous times. To his point, this efficiency ratio is not able to consider the opposite opponent the player is defending, it just shows how efficient you are on the offensive end. Presumably if you fouled a lot you would either be sitting down due to foul trouble or be disqualified from the game and have reduced minutes and scoring opportunities.

The major highlights of JRRRJ's current data is how efficient Sarah is and how mediocre that Chen is. To be truly considered for an All-American, your efficiency number is usually north of 23. Hidalgo is at 24.3 and Miles is 23.2 so both are playing at AA consideration (as are Paige and Sarah). King is at 19.5 (pretty good) and Koval is at 11.3. Citron is at 18.6. What this proves is their starting 5 is better than our starting 5.

 

[donalddoowop]

Geno wants his posts to be able to shoot the 3. It allows them to pull their defender out from under the basket, and for the threat of the little pick and roll to the perimeter for a jump shot to be credible. Dolson, Walker, Dorka, Stewie and now Strong offer this option. A one dimensional classic post not so highly valued by Geno.

I lump forwards and centers together, as that's the way they play at UConn.

Don't worry, they will all also still be posting up. It's not an accident though when you see our bigs at the perimeter, it's right where coach wants them to be.

Anyone who has been a UConn fan for any number of years should know this.

 

[Steelerone]

After 8 games, I think a clear pattern is emerging. Ice continues to start each game and plays 30% more minutes than Jana. Yet, I would posit that Jana is more impactful in games. I can't speak to any differences in practices but in actual games, here is what I refer to: Jana leads Ice in total rebounds 46 to 33, Jana has twice as many steals, and Jana leads in points 58 to 49. At the same time, Jana has less fouls 14 to 19, and less turnovers 9 to 12.

Thanks to the great analysis supplied by JRRRJ, we can also compare Ice and Jana on a "per 40 minutes" basis. When we do, the far greater positive contribution of Jana is even more clear: Jana out rebounds Ice 14.15 to 7.81, she gets 2 and a half times as many steals and out scores Ice by 17.85 to 11.6.

The only area where Ice greatly bests Jana is in assists but I think that is explained by being less aggressive when she gets the ball under the basket. When Jana gets such possessions, her mindset is to score, while Ice simply scores less and will often look to outlet the ball rather than taking it to the hoop.

My point is I hope clear, Jana simply contributes more to our winning than Ice and the actual in game statistics make that clear. With a quarter of the season in the books, I think we need to recognize her greater contribution and give her the majority of minutes rather than playing a back up role.

Great job with the state

After 8 games, I think a clear pattern is emerging. Ice continues to start each game and plays 30% more minutes than Jana. Yet, I would posit that Jana is more impactful in games. I can't speak to any differences in practices but in actual games, here is what I refer to: Jana leads Ice in total rebounds 46 to 33, Jana has twice as many steals, and Jana leads in points 58 to 49. At the same time, Jana has less fouls 14 to 19, and less turnovers 9 to 12.

Thanks to the great analysis supplied by JRRRJ, we can also compare Ice and Jana on a "per 40 minutes" basis. When we do, the far greater positive contribution of Jana is even more clear: Jana out rebounds Ice 14.15 to 7.81, she gets 2 and a half times as many steals and out scores Ice by 17.85 to 11.6.

The only area where Ice greatly bests Jana is in assists but I think that is explained by being less aggressive when she gets the ball under the basket. When Jana gets such possessions, her mindset is to score, while Ice simply scores less and will often look to outlet the ball rather than taking it to the hoop.

My point is I hope clear, Jana simply contributes more to our winning than Ice and the actual in game statistics make that clear. With a quarter of the season in the books, I think we need to recognize her greater contribution and give her the majority of minutes rather than playing a back up role.

Great job with the stats PVP but I'm waiting to see how she does against the 1st team.

 

[Steelerone]

Two true bigs-nice problem to have!
When the game is close, Jana is difficult to have in due to her tendency to foul. Her interior offensive moves seem to get better game by game but are still limited. As you might expect from someone coming back from a major injury, she moves slower to the ball than Ice. Geno appears to be doing what you would expect. See how the match ups are developing and make substitute decisions accordingly. Particularly against top teams, why would you make decisions based on other factors such as stat sheets, some of which at this stage of the season are skewed by games against 2nd level teams.

I have yet to see either have an impact on a game.

 

[packwrap]

Anyone who has been a UConn fan for any number of years should know this.

I would hope so, but I was responding to a poster who wanted bigs to stay down in the post.

 

[JoePgh]

Geno wants his posts to be able to shoot the 3. It allows them to pull their defender out from under the basket, and for the threat of the little pick and roll to the perimeter for a jump shot to be credible. Dolson, Walker, Dorka, Stewie and now Strong offer this option. A one dimensional classic post not so highly valued by Geno.

I lump forwards and centers together, as that's the way they play at UConn.

Don't worry, they will all also still be posting up. It's not an accident though when you see our bigs at the perimeter, it's right where coach wants them to be.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Geno wants front court players who have 3-point ability to use it, but it's not something that he demands in front court players. It wasn't a significant part of Olivia's or Aaliyah's game, and they both played plenty of minutes. Morgan Tuck took 3's and usually hit a low-20's percentage, but again it wasn't a big part of her game. Gabby was a front court player for UConn, and I'm not sure she ever took a 3-point shot in college. Even Stef Dolson's offense wasn't based around 3-point shots, especially before her senior year. Napheesa was a mainstay of UConn's front court before she ever developed a good 3-point shot, but when she perfected that, Geno was happy to see her use it.

This year, I don't think he wants either Ice or Jana (particularly Jana) to take a lot of 3's. As @oldude said, he's more concerned with them making the right decision (pass to the right teammate or go to the rim) and doing that decisively.

Jana is 0-3, 0%, from three

Jana has never taken a 3-point shot that mattered -- she only does it in garbage time. I'm fairly sure that she is under orders not to take 3's before the game is decided. When she does it in garbage time, it's for developmental purposes only.