I suggest we throw up 3 pointers and hit the boards! | The Boneyard

I suggest we throw up 3 pointers and hit the boards!

TeamFirst!

TeamFirst!

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Dawn Staley once said something to the effect that she didn't mind so much if her team missed jump shots because they probably were going to get the rebound and maybe a putback. Look at how that worked out for them. Look at our team. 3 potential 40% 3 point jump shooters ( much better than SC ) and if we actually work it, capable of rebounding with just about anyone. I would think Ayanna has a lot of rebounding potential next year and I would ask her to focus on rebounding, defense and put backs. Who else not named the "B" word is an incoming freshman who can rebound better? Maybe South Carolina's Ashlyn Watkins? Is Ayanna capable of 10 rebounds a game? One would think potentially if she gets 30 minutes PT. She is big, strong, fast and aggressive on the boards and she can flat out jump with strong enough hands to hold onto the ball in a crowd. She has the makings of a great rebounding big.

I'm all for Ice getting a lot of PT also as she may be as good as any of our bigs in replicating the passing big we had with Liv with maybe even a better outside shot. I think we are going to be fine in all areas next year. Looking at it from a basic analytics perspective, I think we can maximize our offensive potential as a ball moving 3 point shooting team which also has a strong rebounding component. I'm not saying be a 3 point shooting team entirely but it would be my primary focus along with fielding a strong rebounding component.
 
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Kyla Oldacre (Miami) 6-5 True post is going to own some paint if/when she gets in a college training program. She intimidated the taller Lauren Betts in the McDonalds AA game. She kept rebounding and defensive position the entire game.
 
The perfection in UConn’s perfect seasons did not rely upon that strategy. Tennessee has outrebounded us and we still beat them in championship runs. Our back to back perfect seasons featured a 6’0” power forward. The team some still consider the best of all time had no one over 6’2”.

What Auriemma teams try to achieve all these years is to play harder, smarter than the opponents and to have fun. The teams that were the most fun to watch were the ones that played and reacted faster than all the opponents. By playing faster I do not mean a Westphal type of offense, though the best teams were always good at transition, the best teams could move the ball around faster than the opponents could react, and their team defense was flawless due to their quick reactions and switching.

The varied nature of recruiting and chemistry means that strategy will not always work but, using it as the basis of our approach, we have been more successful than any other program, and we have played more beautiful basketball than any other program. If we relied on the SC strategy of the past year, even if we had the players for it, the team would not be as beautiful to watch.

SC was undoubtedly the best team in the country last year, but they lost to unranked teams. UConn has lost to unranked teams, but never when we were at the pinnacle of our ability to play and react faster than the opponents.
 
The strategy of tough defense, getting shots up and then crashing the boards won 8 national championships for Pat Summit and TN. Geno, MM and others were among the forerunners of a generation of coaches where ball movement, motion offense, 4-out & 5-out sets changed the nature of WBB.

With that said, Dawn and SC are very much an old school team that won its most recent championship by going back to a strategy of tough defense, getting shots up and crashing the boards. Of course, to do so successfully, you must have the players to get it done. Clearly, SC has the players this past season and next. After that, we’ll see.
 
diggerfoot said:
What Auriemma teams try to achieve all these years is to play harder, smarter than the opponents and to have fun. The teams that were the most fun to watch were the ones that played and reacted faster than all the opponents. By playing faster I do not mean a Westphal type of offense, though the best teams were always good at transition, the best teams could move the ball around faster than the opponents could react, and their team defense was flawless due to their quick reactions and switching.
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Season 4 Success GIF by The Office

Not only were those teams fun to watch they were also UCONN's best teams. That is the missing ingredient of the UCONN teams of the past few season. Gone is the ability to dictate the pace of the game. Gone is most of the transition game and the deep ball from the drag screens in transition. Gone are the easy basket that are the result of running post isolation where UCONN was guaranteed a trip to the foul line or a layup from just about every paint touch. The solution is not to jack up more three pointers although better rebounding is a necessity against SC especially. The solution IMO ( and this will not be a popular one) is to continue to recruit equally skilled basketball players that a better athletes. By better athletes I'm talking about foot speed, being able to jump higher and with quicker reaction times. With Patterson, Shade and Arnold coming in I very encouraged by the level of athleticism that they will potentially bring but I think UCONN will still need more.
 
I remember Geno saying about a particular win that all it showed was they’d recruited better athletes, not that they’d played better basketball. I think “better basketball” must mean crisp execution and more hustle than the opponent. I think this year’s games against DePaul, Creighton, and Maquette really exemplified this.
 
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Bone Dog said:
I remember Geno saying about a particular win that all it showed was they’d recruited better athletes, not that they’d played better basketball. I think “better basketball” must mean crisp execution and more hustle than the opponent. I think this year’s games against DePaul, Creighton, and Maquette really exemplified this.
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That comment by Geno was in reference to UConn’s ugly win at Providence.
 
CocoHusky said:
Season 4 Success GIF by The Office

Not only were those teams fun to watch they were also UCONN's best teams. That is the missing ingredient of the UCONN teams of the past few season. Gone is the ability to dictate the pace of the game. Gone is most of the transition game and the deep ball from the drag screens in transition. Gone are the easy basket that are the result of running post isolation where UCONN was guaranteed a trip to the foul line or a layup from just about every paint touch. The solution is not to jack up more three pointers although better rebounding is a necessity against SC especially. The solution IMO ( and this will not be a popular one) is to continue to recruit equally skilled basketball players that a better athletes. By better athletes I'm talking about foot speed, being able to jump higher and with quicker reaction times. With Patterson, Shade and Arnold coming in I very encouraged by the level of athleticism that they will potentially bring but I think UCONN will still need more.
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I admit to not understanding Uconn's reluctance to pick up the pace on offense and defense. Some of that may be due to not having enough elite athletes as you point out, and clearly incoming recruits help there. This past season I was primed for a faster pace, largely because on paper we had the potential for a 10 deep rotation, allowing us to press a lot on defense, play our starters a little less, our bench more, and to a certain extent wear out other teams starters.

I felt the gap between our bench and our opponents would be significantly bigger than between our starters and their starters. A fast pace on both ends requires both teams to use the bench more (our advantage) or the other team chooses not to rest their starters and they are gassed going against our very talented bench and completely rested (also our advantage). During the worst of our injuries this season we saw the impact of trying to have our starters go near 40, we clearly ran out of gas in a couple of games.

But then Aubrey (the kind of athlete you refer to) missed the whole season, the other injuries took away the superior depth, and with it the potential for picking up the pace, and it became trying to survive with what we had in many games. Your point about drawing fouls
is interesting too. It seems like rebounding is the talk now, but of all the team statistics the weakest for the team was drawing fouls in my opinion. We were way below average in that regard. We also were not a good FT shooting team either, and despite committing far fewer fouls than most teams we had a tiny edge in points from the line, which by Uconn standards is pretty bad.

Lou is a much better 3pt and FT shooter than either Christyn or Evina, and of course Paige and Azzi should play far more minutes this year than last. So the shooting at the FT line and from long range should be better just because of that. I hope that a healthy lineup this year will allow us to strategically pick up the pace on both sides of the ball.

Some of the athleticism as you point out comes with the 2023 class. I don't know how many of this year's roster would be better off in a fast paced strategy, but I feel confident that at least three would be much better off, and those are Nika, Aubrey and Ayanna. A strong case could also be made for good trailing spot up 3pt shooters like Azzi, Paige, Caroline, and Lou, all of which are also capable of taking to the hoop or pulling up for a mid range jumper.
 
I also like the idea of the deep rotation. But that wasn't always Geno's way even with some of the winningest teams. I imagine he's always judging the condition of his players for a press or for pushing the transition. At our best, we run other teams ragged. In the BE tournament, we seemed to have a 10 player rotation, and at least in the first couple rounds of the NCAA. But even then there were hidden injuries that slowed them down a little.
 
oldhuskie said:
I admit to not understanding Uconn's reluctance to pick up the pace on offense and defense. Some of that may be due to not having enough elite athletes as you point out, and clearly incoming recruits help there. This past season I was primed for a faster pace, largely because on paper we had the potential for a 10 deep rotation, allowing us to press a lot on defense, play our starters a little less, our bench more, and to a certain extent wear out other teams starters.
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I believe you and I have dialogue about this several times. With the simultaneous graduation of Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams UCONN essential lost the ability to effectively press and dictate "defensive" tempo without sacrificing offensive efficiency. Let me be specific in my criticism of Mikayla Coombs, Aubrey Griffin and Nika Muhl. All three provided sufficient athleticism required to be a defensive game changing forces. None of the three provided enough offensive consistency or productivity to justify additional usage in that defensive role that was so desperately needed. Better health for Aubrey and Nika would certainly have helped as would a deeper rotation. My criticism is also going to extend to Christyn, Paige and Azzi. Although they are tremendously gifted offensive players (#1 in HS class deservedly) defensive improvement might ultimately have more to do with their success at UCONN. Azzi particularly has got a long long way to grow defensively.
 
oldhuskie said:
I admit to not understanding Uconn's reluctance to pick up the pace on offense and defense. Some of that may be due to not having enough elite athletes as you point out, and clearly incoming recruits help there. This past season I was primed for a faster pace, largely because on paper we had the potential for a 10 deep rotation, allowing us to press a lot on defense, play our starters a little less, our bench more, and to a certain extent wear out other teams starters.

I felt the gap between our bench and our opponents would be significantly bigger than between our starters and their starters. A fast pace on both ends requires both teams to use the bench more (our advantage) or the other team chooses not to rest their starters and they are gassed going against our very talented bench and completely rested (also our advantage). During the worst of our injuries this season we saw the impact of trying to have our starters go near 40, we clearly ran out of gas in a couple of games.

But then Aubrey (the kind of athlete you refer to) missed the whole season, the other injuries took away the superior depth, and with it the potential for picking up the pace, and it became trying to survive with what we had in many games. Your point about drawing fouls
is interesting too. It seems like rebounding is the talk now, but of all the team statistics the weakest for the team was drawing fouls in my opinion. We were way below average in that regard. We also were not a good FT shooting team either, and despite committing far fewer fouls than most teams we had a tiny edge in points from the line, which by Uconn standards is pretty bad.

Lou is a much better 3pt and FT shooter than either Christyn or Evina, and of course Paige and Azzi should play far more minutes this year than last. So the shooting at the FT line and from long range should be better just because of that. I hope that a healthy lineup this year will allow us to strategically pick up the pace on both sides of the ball.

Some of the athleticism as you point out comes with the 2023 class. I don't know how many of this year's roster would be better off in a fast paced strategy, but I feel confident that at least three would be much better off, and those are Nika, Aubrey and Ayanna. A strong case could also be made for good trailing spot up 3pt shooters like Azzi, Paige, Caroline, and Lou, all of which are also capable of taking to the hoop or pulling up for a mid range jumper.
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For much of this season, and last season, the bench was not deep enough to play at a fast pace for 40 minutes. Did you notice the increase in speed at the end of this season, with more pressing to boot? The problem is that the team didn’t have enough time to get good at the quicker pace this year as peoples’ roles kept shifting out of necessity.

If the team stays healthy next season, knock on wood, I expect we’ll see a faster pace.
 
We all are for better athletes, more quickness, better defense right? The original post was about maximizing our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses. We now have what should be an absolutely terrific 3 point scoring team and Lou is a part of that. A healthy Paige is a part of that. Even Caroline may well be a part of that. Azzi is reputed to be the best 3 point shooter in WCBB. 3 point shooting should be team's biggest strength next year. Azzi alone should warrant that approach. We also have a decent rebounding team and I absolutely agree that guards need to be part of that rebounding effort, and we have big guards who are relatively athletic.

There are a lot of good things about a top 3 point shooting team and especially one which features it in their offense because it's so good. If a team shoots over 40% from the 3 point line that is like scoring at over a 60% rate in 2 point shooting. If the team knows Paige, Azzi or Lou are going to put up that 3 when they are open that means the entire team knows when to get themselves in rebounding position. If the 3 point threat is so strong then other teams will need to adjust for it and the cut backs to the basket should also be strong as the floor will be spread out. If at least one big can also shoot from outside that means the lane to the basket is often open. A strong 3 point optimization program with a shooting big, opens up a lot of offense. I think AE and Ice also shoot well from the foul line area. Overall though, I want to see us shoot 3 pointers and put backs. I don't care if it's old school. It maximizes the talent that exists on this team.
 
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We even have relatively big guards who should be able to get their shots off fairly well from outside.
 
Could be, TF. But I don’t think we’re that one dimensional. But I agree that the 3 is likely to figure more prominently in our game. As it did with the great teams of yore. And for just the reasons you say, because it opens up other dimensions.
 
TeamFirst! said:
Dawn Staley once said something to the effect that she didn't mind so much if her team missed jump shots because they probably were going to get the rebound and maybe a putback. Look at how that worked out for them. Look at our team. 3 potential 40% 3 point jump shooters ( much better than SC ) and if we actually work it, capable of rebounding with just about anyone. I would think Ayanna has a lot of rebounding potential next year and I would ask her to focus on rebounding, defense and put backs. Who else not named the "B" word is an incoming freshman who can rebound better? Maybe South Carolina's Ashlyn Watkins? Is Ayanna capable of 10 rebounds a game? One would think potentially if she gets 30 minutes PT. She is big, strong, fast and aggressive on the boards and she can flat out jump with strong enough hands to hold onto the ball in a crowd. She has the makings of a great rebounding big.

I'm all for Ice getting a lot of PT also as she may be as good as any of our bigs in replicating the passing big we had with Liv with maybe even a better outside shot. I think we are going to be fine in all areas next year. Looking at it from a basic analytics perspective, I think we can maximize our offensive potential as a ball moving 3 point shooting team which also has a strong rebounding component. I'm not saying be a 3 point shooting team entirely but it would be my primary focus along with fielding a strong rebounding component.
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that's Dawn's strategy because her three point shooters weren't all that good but her offensive rebounders were terrific........how about simply running your offense in order to get the best shot possible........... that seems to have worked pretty well.......:)
 
CocoHusky said:
Season 4 Success GIF by The Office

Not only were those teams fun to watch they were also UCONN's best teams. That is the missing ingredient of the UCONN teams of the past few season. Gone is the ability to dictate the pace of the game. Gone is most of the transition game and the deep ball from the drag screens in transition. Gone are the easy basket that are the result of running post isolation where UCONN was guaranteed a trip to the foul line or a layup from just about every paint touch. The solution is not to jack up more three pointers although better rebounding is a necessity against SC especially. The solution IMO ( and this will not be a popular one) is to continue to recruit equally skilled basketball players that a better athletes. By better athletes I'm talking about foot speed, being able to jump higher and with quicker reaction times. With Patterson, Shade and Arnold coming in I very encouraged by the level of athleticism that they will potentially bring but I think UCONN will still need more.
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While we mostly agree, of course there has to be nuanced differences. :)

Let us assume that Makurat and Griffin play similarly hard. Griffin had an edge in athleticism, Makurat in playing smarter. The Makurat type player gets the edge in Auriemma’s approach, whether that is always for the best or not. Doty was not particularly fast, at least not after her injury, but she was a player who reacted quickly and got the ball to the right place in quick fashion. Players like Moore and Charles benefited from that.

For a couple of years we had a 6’1” center and a 5’11” power forward, along with Dangerfield and Nurse a pretty darn athletic line-up. Even Samuelson had, at the least, greater hops than she was conventionally credited. The fact that we kept our Final Four streak in tact indicates two things: 1. we don’t always recruit to our needs, I would say due to cyclical factors that are beyond any coach’s control. 2. Even when recruiting does not go our way, whether within our control or not, Auriemma’s approach has brought more success than any other approach,
 
TeamFirst! said:
We all are for better athletes, more quickness, better defense right? The original post was about maximizing our strengths and minimizing our weaknesses. We now have what should be an absolutely terrific 3 point scoring team and Lou is a part of that. A healthy Paige is a part of that. Even Caroline may well be a part of that. Azzi is reputed to be the best 3 point shooter in WCBB. 3 point shooting should be team's biggest strength next year. Azzi alone should warrant that approach. We also have a decent rebounding team and I absolutely agree that guards need to be part of that rebounding effort, and we have big guards who are relatively athletic.

There are a lot of good things about a top 3 point shooting team and especially one which features it in their offense because it's so good. If a team shoots over 40% from the 3 point line that is like scoring at over a 60% rate in 2 point shooting. If the team knows Paige, Azzi or Lou are going to put up that 3 when they are open that means the entire team knows when to get themselves in rebounding position. If the 3 point threat is so strong then other teams will need to adjust for it and the cut backs to the basket should also be strong as the floor will be spread out. If at least one big can also shoot from outside that means the lane to the basket is often open. A strong 3 point optimization program with a shooting big, opens up a lot of offense. I think AE and Ice also shoot well from the foul line area. Overall though, I want to see us shoot 3 pointers and put backs. I don't care if it's old school. It maximizes the talent that exists on this team.
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You keep repeating this mantra that UCONN is a "terrific" 3Pt shooting team-although in fairness you did use the word "potential" in your original post. This is simply not supported by the stats. UCONN shot 33.79 % from behind the arc last season. That was the lowest 3PTFG% for a UCONN team going back a full decade for the stats I've been able to check. That stat puts UCONN at #56 ranked team in the country in 3pt shooting. The former Syracuse WBB coach Quentin Hillsman had a similar philosophy-it didn't matter how many you make just keep putting up threes. I questioned Q's philosophy then and would also question your proposal to have next season's UCONN team start launching more threes. BTW Hillsman should have been fired for malpractice but it was abusive behavior that eventually caught up to him.

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CocoHusky said:
You keep repeating this mantra that UCONN is a "terrific" 3Pt shooting team-although in fairness you did use the word "potential" in your original post. This is simply not supported by the stats. UCONN shot 33.79 % from behind the arc last season. That was the lowest 3PTFG% for a UCONN team going back a full decade for the stats I've been able to check. That stat puts UCONN at #56 ranked team in the country in 3pt shooting. The former Syracuse WBB coach Quentin Hillsman had a similar philosophy-it didn't matter how many you make just keep putting up threes. I questioned Q's philosophy then and would also question your proposal to have next season's UCONN team start launching more threes. BTW Hillsman should have been fired for malpractice but it was abusive behavior that eventually caught up to him.

View attachment 76214
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Anybody got any stats comparing overall 3 pt percentage last year (2020-2021) to this year (2021-22) when the line was moved?
 
You see Coco I am going on these things called relevant stats. Historically, Paige has been an excellent 3 point shooter as has Lou and Azzi. That sound you hear is the mike dropping... Who gives a damm what Evina and CW shot last year from the 3 point line.
 
No one is saying passing up good shots elsewhere. Layups, open 2 point shots etc. With every team I coached I looked at what I had to work with and tried to optimize the results from that pool of talent. For us that should be 3 point shooting given at least some boost.
 
TeamFirst! said:
You see Coco I am going on these things called relevant stats. Historically, Paige has been an excellent 3 point shooter as has Lou and Azzi. That sound you hear is the mike dropping... Who gives a damm what Evina and CW shot last year from the 3 point line.
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You are not very good as this are you? CW actually shot better than the team average from deep last season-so relevantly speaking it does not help your case to drop her stats. BTW it is mic not mike and
Mic.gif
 
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Both Paige and Azzi have shot over 43% for their college careeers from 3. Lopez- Senechal has averaged about 40% 3 point shooting for the last 3 years in a row with a lot of shots put up. That is a great 3 point shooting team.
 
Coco, I worked in TV for 10 years and lots of people used the "mike" moniker. For the people who used them every freaking day. But your middle name is polemics so you have to find something.

I'm very confident my data is a lot more relevant than the largely irrelevant data you are citing. CW and Evina are not projected to play next year for Uconn.
 
Mdoggie said:
I got is all figured out! I suggest we take and make more shots than the other team. There it’s settled!
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... and foul less often than the other team. Think Notre dame.
 
stamfordhusky said:
Various studies have shown that, while this is slightly true, there is not a huge difference between where missed two point shots are rebounded and where missed three-point shots are rebounded.
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What various studies? The imaginary studies that support your opinion? :) My imaginary studies say the opposite. :rolleyes: Why don't you post the links to these studies if they are real, :D
Read the study by the Northwestern Sports Analytic Group.

Do Longer Shot Attempts Mean Longer Rebounds? | Northwestern Sports Analytics Group

Author: Jeremy Brooks (Weinberg '20) In every level of basketball, rebounding is considered in two different lights: on one hand it is the pinna...
sites.northwestern.edu sites.northwestern.edu
Basically they say in a agreement with you: "there is no observed correlation between field goal attempt distance and defensive rebound distance in the NBA, which undermines the prevailing sentiment that longer shots result in longer rebounds." However, they go on to say: "Despite this conclusion, the conventional wisdom should not wholly be rejected. The “longer shots == longer rebounds” logic simplifies rebounds into a one dimensional endeavor, in which the length is the distance the ball travels horizontally from the basket. However, the incredible height and athleticism of NBA players elucidates the importance of viewing rebounds as a three dimensional process in which the vertical dimension is critical. The rebounds might be set on a longer trajectory, but because NBA players routinely corral rebounds far above the height of the rim, the basketball might never have a chance to travel that far away." Women players cannot leap like NBA players so more rebounds will travel further from the basket.

A second reason that the conventional wisdom may still hold true is that the distance of offensive rebounds was not considered. Because the defense is typically aligned “inside” the offense during play and after a shot attempt, the longer rebounds may more likely be offensive rebounds because they sail far from where the defense is focused. Additional research on the connection between field goal attempt distance and offensive rebound distance could confirm or deny this possibility.
 
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