I hope ESPN is happy with what they did to hoops

[upstater]

There are really multiple ways of looking at the "strength" of leagues. One way is the number of bids, and that generally measures depth of quality teams, thoough one could argue it does so in a somewhat gross manner. So a league with 4 bids is stronger than one with 3 and weaker than 1 with 6. Assuming membership is relatively close, that gives some idea of how good a conference is overall. But looking at how the various teams actually perform in the post season is another way to value conference strength. Does a league regularly send teams deep into the tourney? Or produce Final Four teams, and national Championship game participants. So if you look at 2004 for example, the Big East, SEC, ACC and CUSA all got 6 bids. So looking at bids, you have 4 equal leagues. But if you dig a bit deeper, you find that the CUSA entrants wsere all gone by the Sweet 16. In fact only 1 of 6 got that far, while the ACC had 2 Final four teams, while the Big East and the SEC each had 1. UConn from the Big East beat Georgia Tech of the ACC in the Championship game. What does that say about the relative strengths of the ACC, BE and SEC? Probably one could make a case that overall, at least in 2004 the ACC was the better league, but the Big East had the best team. If you look at the results by round: 32-ACC: 6 BE:5, S16-ACC:3 BE:3, E8-ACC:3, BE:1, FF-ACC:2 BE:1 CG-ACC:1 BE:1, Title:BE. You could probably make an argument on either side. The Big East had the best team, but the ACC had more teams make deeper runs. Both had dreck at the bottom though neither had the level of dreck they have today. I think we'll see something similar between the Catholic Big East and the A12. They'll get a similar number of bids, you'd have to guess in a typical year, UConn, Cincy, Temple and Memphis would be likely as would Georgetown, Marquette, Butler and maybe Villanova. the issue will be whether either one produces teams that are capable of going deep, challenging for a national championship. I have my doubts that the C-7 will do that. I have some doubts about the A-12 too, just not as many.

of course, there's also one other factor. Seeding. It does make a difference.

 

[upstater]

I think ESPN has helped to "kill" hoops in a more profound/different way - not via CR but rather through over-saturation of the product. I think most fans - even in "basketball-crazed" areas - are tiring of it via elongated seasons that now have pre-season tourneys (yawners for the most part) and more and more and more and more games on tv. By the time folks get to March, it is kind of white noise and unless your team makes a deep run into the tourney or your bracket pool is winnable people are paying less attention to hoops. Football (with its fewer game schedules) is replacing other sports with many more games per season (i.e. basketball, baseball, and hockey) as the sport to watch (and I think there are societal reasons for this as well). Things might cycle back to basketball being more popular than it is now but I think that will be a long time coming.

I tend to disagree with this. It's essentially a 4 1/2 month season. 35 games. It's not really all that taxing.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

I tend to disagree with this. It's essentially a 4 1/2 month season. 35 games. It's not really all that taxing.

Just to my point: with 35 games, none of them are all that important in the regular season (unless you are on the bubble) and with 300+ schools playing and all of these games that are on tv it is so watered-down. Lose 1 football game and you have little to no chance at a Championship, lose two and you dont play in your Conf Championship game, lose three and you are in a largely-forgotten bowl game. Each football game is precious - the same cannot be said about basketball.

 

[upstater]

Just to my point: with 35 games, none of them are all that important in the regular season (unless you are on the bubble) and with 300+ schools playing and all of these games that are on tv it is so watered-down. Lose 1 football game and you have little to no chance at a Championship, lose two and you dont play in your Conf Championship game, lose three and you are in a largely-forgotten bowl game. Each football game is precious - the same cannot be said about basketball.

I think the OOC games establish a resume, but if you go under .500 in a tough conference, you are essentially excluded from the dance. I do believe they count. It's not the end of the world, but they do count. We're talking 16 games. It's not like the NBA.

 

[upstater]

I think the C7 are going to get 3 or 4 or 5 most years. I think, like the MWC in it's best years, the C7 will likely place their top 3 in the tournament every year, and a number of years it will be top 4-5. I think it is folly to suggest that because St. Louis is good in the A10 for a year or two, or Creighton, that it will transfer directly to a better conference (as you've said as well). But I do think some of those programs are good, and will ultimately still perform well enough out of conference to mitigate their losses.

While I think the C7 will have a better conference top to bottom than the A12, I bet they get an equal amount of bids for precisely the same reasons that CUSA and MWC have been getting more than the ACC and Pac12, Sec in recent years. RPI. It's a flawed measurement as we all know, and the top of the conference will be virtually assured each year of having stellar record, at the expense of a weak bottom. Memphis, UConn, Cincy and even Temple will have to try quite hard to miss the NCAA's.

 

[Marty Jackson]

To be clear, the magic of MSG, especially the last 7 years, will NEVER be duplicated. There is no way to replicate 16 teams descending on Manhattan, many of whom have large traveling fan bases or big alumni bases in NYC. Every year was electric. Including the years UConn was not very good, I can't think of a single year that the BET was not great.

Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, UConn, Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville, WVU, Cincinnati, Notre Dame, plus the host St. Johns all on ONE COURT!!! And the teams all brought their A game for the tournament. 7 of the 11 games in the 2006 BET were decided by 5 or fewer points. There is no way to ever match what happened on MSG in the NBE. They will be talking about this dead league 20 years from now.

Putting the ACC Tournament in MSG, even with UConn, would not come close to matching the BET. Syracuse and UConn can not carry MSG by themselves. The C7 have a slightly better chance, although I do not disagree with those that say that adding a bunch of midwestern schools is not going to sell many more tickets to the C7 BET. Xavier travels pretty well, and I suspect that Creighton will since they draw so well in Omaha already for mediocre MVC opponents, but Dayton, St. Louis and Butler will probably not bring a lot of fans. The C7 BET will be good, not great. More interesting than any other conference tournament, but nowhere near the last 7 years.

A tourney with cuse, uconn, duke, pitt, ville, wf, nd, unc, nc state and bc would manage to attract some attention...
It wouldnt be the big east. It would be better.

 

[businesslawyer]

You can actually create a funny argument like this: my new conference consisting of Stony Brook, Coppin State, Charleston, Bucknell, and Hofstra has 5 NCAA tourney bids. It will be an incredible conference!

Come on. Don't compare auto bid teams with teams that earn a bid in an at large pool. Creighton and St Louis may not be threats to win the tournament, but they both had better seasons than UConn did and are damn good basketball teams.

 

[upstater]

Come on. Don't compare auto bid teams with teams that earn a bid in an at large pool. Creighton and St Louis may not be threats to win the tournament, but they both had better seasons than UConn did and are damn good basketball teams.

Did you miss the part where I called it a "funny" argument?

And, you sure Creighton isn't an autobid team? Look at their schedule.

 

[ZooCougar]

The thing I love about these three weeks, is that people actually give a crap about schools like "Creighton" and "Valparaiso"

 

[freescooter]

CTFAN raises a really good point I think. The problem of just the ever lengthening of the season with meaningless games really contributes to the problem. If you go back to 1989-90, the Dream Season, UConn played its first game on thanksgiving weekend at a pre-season tournament, the Great Alaskan Shootout. The NCAA limited teams to 1 "pre-season" Tournament every 4 years I think. Most teams didn't start until after Thanksgiving. This year, UConn's first game was November 9 and they had already played 5 regular season games BEFORE the 1989 team had played 1. I think this is contributing to basketball's loss of stature vs football in particular, because with a season that so dramatically overlaps and with so many games that are pretty meaningless, its hard to really get too pumped for Stony Brook or Maryland Eastern Shore. And while football has its cupcake games, too, there aren't as many and at east once you start conference play, every game means something.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Did you miss the part where I called it a "funny" argument?

And, you sure Creighton isn't an autobid team? Look at their schedule.

They won the MVC, but Lunardi has the team they beat, Wichita State in as a lock. So they aren't from a single bid conference like the others. Memphis in contrast will likely be the only CUSA team.

 

[upstater]

The thing I love about these three weeks, is that people actually give a crap about schools like "Creighton" and "Valparaiso"

I've been wondering about this the last several years, as I watched Creighton get ranked. This school hasn't done a thing in a great many decades. And people suddenly know who they are.

 

[upstater]

They won the MVC, but Lunardi has the team they beat, Wichita State in as a lock. So they aren't from a single bid conference like the others. Memphis in contrast will likely be the only CUSA team.

I was joking when I mentioned Stony Brook et al. I even wrote that.

 

[ZooCougar]

I've been wondering about this the last several years, as I watched Creighton get ranked. This school hasn't done a thing in a great many decades. And people suddenly know who they are.

And most people still have no idea where in flyover country it resides. I guessed Iowa, I also though Valpo was somewhere in some godforsaken town Illinoplace. It's actually in Indianoplace.

 

[Husky25]

I think ESPN has helped to "kill" hoops in a more profound/different way - not via CR but rather through over-saturation of the product. I think most fans - even in "basketball-crazed" areas - are tiring of it via elongated seasons that now have pre-season tourneys (yawners for the most part) and more and more and more and more games on tv. By the time folks get to March, it is kind of white noise and unless your team makes a deep run into the tourney or your bracket pool is winnable people are paying less attention to hoops at that time of year as well. Football (with its fewer game schedules) is replacing other sports that have many more games per season (i.e. basketball, baseball, and hockey) as the sport to watch (and I think there are societal reasons for this as well). Things might cycle back to basketball being more popular than it is now but I think that will be a long time coming.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree. It's not like the NCAA is a professional league trying to expand into ill-fitting markets (**Cough** NHL**cough** Columbus, Ohio**). The games are already being played. The networks are simplying making more available via various media outlets (HDTV, I-pad, smartphone) and one no longer is required to be in attendance. I think the environments at these tournements games has less to do with over saturation of the overall product and more to do with the In-arena vs. at home experience (I've made this argument before).

At the end of the day, college sports is entertainment and John Q. Consumer is concerned now (and since 2008)more than ever with the cost-benefit of that entertainment. I'd venture that most fans are less concerned with saturation because they are able to sift through the various offerings in order to find the desired program.

 

[HuskyHawk]

And most people still have no idea where in flyover country it resides. I guessed Iowa, I also though Valpo was somewhere in some godforsaken town Illinoplace. It's actually in Indianoplace.

Creighton is a little better known, because they host the college world series every year. They average over 16,000 a game for basketball. The MVC isn't a bad league. Wichita State is often decent, and their baseball is very good.

 

[UCFBfan]

Creighton is a little better known, because they host the college world series every year. They average over 16,000 a game for basketball. The MVC isn't a bad league. Wichita State is often decent, and their baseball is very good.

I thought the CWS was in Omaha? Is that where Creighton is? Clearly they aren't that well known....

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[nelsonmuntz]

CTFAN raises a really good point I think. The problem of just the ever lengthening of the season with meaningless games really contributes to the problem. If you go back to 1989-90, the Dream Season, UConn played its first game on thanksgiving weekend at a pre-season tournament, the Great Alaskan Shootout. The NCAA limited teams to 1 "pre-season" Tournament every 4 years I think. Most teams didn't start until after Thanksgiving. This year, UConn's first game was November 9 and they had already played 5 regular season games BEFORE the 1989 team had played 1. I think this is contributing to basketball's loss of stature vs football in particular, because with a season that so dramatically overlaps and with so many games that are pretty meaningless, its hard to really get too pumped for Stony Brook or Maryland Eastern Shore. And while football has its cupcake games, too, there aren't as many and at east once you start conference play, every game means something.

Nope. Football plays more cupcake games because there are no consequences for playing cupcakes in football. Since there is no tournament who cares about SOS?

Football is just a more popular game right now, although I think that popularity is on the verge of falling off a cliff (more on that later). Structurally, basketball is far superior, which is why basketball's postseason destroys footballs in interest and ratings. There are about 3 bowl games a year, all played in prime time without any CFB or NFL competition at the same time, that outdraw the Sweet 16, which plays head to head against other Sweet 16 games and about 10 NBA games.

 

[whaler11]

Not knowing where Creighton is shows more about the person than it does the school. They have had a solid program for a long time and draw huge crowds.

 

[hthusky74]

I thought the CWS was in Omaha? Is that where Creighton is? Clearly they aren't that well known....

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They are in Omaha and in addition to the university, have a quality medical center. Their soccer team is usually ranked and if for no other reason, they should be known as the school that produced one of the greatest baseball players of all time--Bob Gibson.

 

[Chief00]

There are pluses and minuSes but over-all I agree - MBB is worse off, It is ironic.

 

[UCFBfan]

Not knowing where Creighton is shows more about the person than it does the school. They have had a solid program for a long time and draw huge crowds.

I knew their basketball team as the team that always pulled off the upsets in the Tourney. Not knowing they were in Omaha or that they're the hosts of the CWS does not mean a thing.

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[ZooCougar]

Not knowing where Creighton is shows more about the person than it does the school. They have had a solid program for a long time and draw huge crowds.

Mmmmm if anything it just shows that you don't know or care all that much about mid majors or basketball in general.

I've heard of Creighton tons of times, I never cared to find out where it is. It's somewhere between LA and NY.

 

[ZooCougar]

I knew their basketball team as the team that always pulled off the upsets in the Tourney. Not knowing they were in Omaha or that they're the hosts of the CWS does not mean a thing.

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Right. CWS is totally niche. It's filler.

 

[upstater]

I knew their basketball team as the team that always pulled off the upsets in the Tourney. Not knowing they were in Omaha or that they're the hosts of the CWS does not mean a thing.

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Huh?

I just checked their tourney record.

13 times since 1975.

Constant first round losses.

They've never made the Sweet 16 in the 13 times since 1975 that they made it to the NCAAs.

Are you thinking Valpo? They have some good showings.

 

[huskymedic]

I knew their basketball team as the team that always pulled off the upsets in the Tourney. Not knowing they were in Omaha or that they're the hosts of the CWS does not mean a thing.

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You are parly vindicated ... While Creighton is in Omaha, the City owns the TD Amertrade stadium that the CWS is played in. They allow Creighton to play home baseball games there but Creighton does not "host" the tournament. The CWS is run by a non-profit agency.

 

[UCFBfan]

Huh?

I just checked their tourney record.

13 times since 1995.

Constant first round losses.

They've never made the Sweet 16 in the 13 times since 1975 that they made it to the NCAAs.

Are you thinking Valpo? They have some good showings.

No I wasn't thinking of Valpo but now I wanna know who I was thinking of.....crap....I just looked at the same thing and they haven't had many victories....I was only referring to the first round also. Never said they made it far....I'll have to think about this.....wait a second...I really don't care that much about Creighton to be honest so I'm not really going tow aste much time on it.....

 

[upstater]

No I wasn't thinking of Valpo but now I wanna know who I was thinking of.....crap....I just looked at the same thing and they haven't had many victories....I was only referring to the first round also. Never said they made it far....I'll have to think about this.....wait a second...I really don't care that much about Creighton to be honest so I'm not really going tow aste much time on it.....

LOL......

 

[The Funster]

This is all short-term thinking.

You have to wait to see the final product.

If a few southern schools left the ACC and UConn joined, then Fox's purchase of the BE would be all hollowed out. The ACC tourney would move to NY, and people would say the northeast is locked up for basketball by the ACC.

Georgetown would be in mourning.

Yeah but when that happens nelsonmuntz will just tell us all that was inevitable. He's the King Of Revisionist History.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Yeah but when that happens nelsonmuntz will just tell us all that was inevitable. He's the King Of Revisionist History.

Link?