I hope ESPN is happy with what they did to hoops

[upstater]

This is nuts. How is replacing Louisville with Dayton, or Cinci with Xavier making it any less of an east coast league than it was? It hasn't been an all east coast league for many years. Pitt and Syracuse aren't exactly on the Atlantic either. Easier to get to NY from Ohio or Indiana than Florida.
The c7-BE has a lot going for it, and that's why it got paid. It is a northeast-great lakes based league for the most part. It has only one crappy team, DePaul, and even they have national championship history.

??? Geography needs to be put into question here

Nebraska
Indiana
Milwaukee
St. Louis
Chicago
Cincinnati
Dayton

East Coast:

NYC
New Jersey
Rhody
DC
Philly

The new CYO league is NOT mainly based in the East Coast, and since it's largely composed of small catholic schools with fewer alumni, it will be incredibly hard to see how they can drive the amount of fan interest that even a demolished ACC will. It won't. If/when the ACC goes down, you'll see this minor conference relegated to smaller arenas. MSG will have nothing to do with them.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Holy cow, this is the nuttiest thing I've read on this board in a very long time. Have you ever been to the BET?

You're telling me that the C7 tourney is going to have a better chance at matching the old BET than this:

UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, BC, Cincy, Duke, Wake Forest?????????

The first four teams listed WERE the old BET, they dominated it. Duke has a ton of fans. There would be no chaff at all like Creighton, Butler, DePaul, Providence, etc.

This is crazy crazy stuff from the people who can't stop idolozing what the Catholic schools brought to the BE.

Preposterous.

Because I've been siding with Nelson on this, I want to clarify that I agree with you here. UConn plus the ACC schools would definitely be a better draw in NYC than the C7. Duke is particularly strong in NY/NJ for a southern school.

The C7 is certainly a bigger draw than the A12 however. MSG obviously agrees.

 

[upstater]

Because I've been siding with Nelson on this, I want to clarify that I agree with you here. UConn plus the ACC schools would definitely be a better draw in NYC than the C7. Duke is particularly strong in NY/NJ for a southern school.

The C7 is certainly a bigger draw than the A12 however. MSG obviously agrees.

MSG doesn't care. It's renting the place out.

 

[HuskyHawk]

MSG doesn't care. It's renting the place out.

MSG said they would not host the A12 tournament.

 

[Husky25]

This is nuts. How is replacing Louisville with Dayton, or Cinci with Xavier making it any less of an east coast league than it was? It hasn't been an all east coast league for many years. Pitt and Syracuse aren't exactly on the Atlantic either. Easier to get to NY from Ohio or Indiana than Florida.

The c7-BE has a lot going for it, and that's why it got paid. It is a northeast-great lakes based league for the most part. It has only one crappy team, DePaul, and even they have national championship history.

Many of you are far off on what makes a league great. It isn't championship teams. The SEC sucks as a basketball league despite recent titles by Kentucky and Florida. It sucks because it has no depth and is top heavy. The Pac 10 sucks for the same reason. The ACC has been boring for years because it was too top heavy. The Big 10 is finally back not because it has a great team in Indiana, but because it is strong enough that Indiana had to struggle night after night. Depth is what matters. The Big East always had it, and the new version will as well. The teams at the top may not win championships anymore, that's true, but almost every game will be contested and entertaining. The regular season is the content that broadcasters buy. It matters.

Being an east coast league is the least significant trait of the recently old Big East, but I said it so I'll own it. That said, it didn't take a ton of effort to drive to 'Cuse or Pitt if the mood struck (All highway in about 8 hours) and they are solidly in the GMT -5. It takes a bit more planning and resources to get to some of these other burgs, which are pushing the central time zone if not already there.

My point is the quality of teams comprising the C7 is largely middle of the road at best, save for Gtown (thanks only to JTIII). 4 of the 7 teams have historically had to fight tooth and nail during the regular season just to be invited to MSG in March (remember when the bottom 4 were didn't qualify?). So you pull in three other mid-majors from the middle of the country that would be middle of the pack in the old Big East, at best, and expect them to elavate the conference above a mid-major level AND fill the Most Famous Arena? Sorry, Charlie. I gonna have to lean toward sceptical on that one.

 

[upstater]

MSG said they would not host the A12 tournament.

Link?

Never heard that. I assumed A12 isn't bothering. Not bothering with Barclay's either. I don't know why, but hey... haven't seen MSG say that. They have a contract with the BE and they see no reason to adopt another. In fact, MSG almost kicked the BE (Catholics) to the curb this month. They asked for the ACC to commit to having the tourney there once every 3 years. If the ACC had agreed, the Catholics would have been on the outside looking in. Say, for the helluva it, that the Catholics would have then taken their ball to Brooklyn. What would MSG have done in the 2 interim years between ACC tourneys? A12?

 

[HuskyHawk]

Link?

Never heard that. I assumed A12 isn't bothering. Not bothering with Barclay's either. I don't know why, but hey... haven't seen MSG say that. They have a contract with the BE and they see no reason to adopt another. In fact, MSG almost kicked the BE (Catholics) to the curb this month. They asked for the ACC to commit to having the tourney there once every 3 years. If the ACC had agreed, the Catholics would have been on the outside looking in. Say, for the helluva it, that the Catholics would have then taken their ball to Brooklyn. What would MSG have done in the 2 interim years between ACC tourneys? A12?

Saw it in a tweet from Katz or somebody like that. Not arguing on ACC...clearly stronger and better drawing. But I think the C7-BE is also clearly stronger and clearly more northeastern than the A12. It's just us and Temple....and nobody else close.

 

[freescooter]

Holy cow, this is the nuttiest thing I've read on this board in a very long time. Have you ever been to the BET?

You're telling me that the C7 tourney is going to have a better chance at matching the old BET than this:

UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, BC, Cincy, Duke, Wake Forest?????????

The first four teams listed WERE the old BET, they dominated it. Duke has a ton of fans. There would be no chaff at all like Creighton, Butler, DePaul, Providence, etc.

This is crazy crazy stuff from the people who can't stop idolozing what the Catholic schools brought to the BE.

Preposterous.

The Catholics have essentially been irrelevant to the Big East for a decade. Oh from time to time one or another of Georgetown or Villanova have been good, but the real power in the conference has rested with UConn, Syracuse Pitt, West Virginia then Louisville, Cincy when they joined the league also joined the power club. St Johns, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul have pretty much been irrelevent. Marquette has been a nice team, but I'm not sure they have ever been accepted by the fans as a real Big East team. Now suddenly htey are going to be relevent again? St Johns which aside from catching a little bit of lightnig in a bottle at the end of 2011 has been nothing much is suddenly going to recreate Louie Carnesecca? Is Dave Gavitt somehow going to re-inspire a Providence team that hasn't finished in the upper half of the conference since I don't know when to re-create the days of Ernie D and Marvin Barnes? Count me skeptical.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Hey if that sort of thing turns you on, have at it. I choose to look forward.

I believe the institution from which I matriculated, graduated, and continually support will end up in a better spot than that which it is currently. You are choosing to look back with longing at a situation that no longer exists and has almost zero shot of developing in the future.

Check out the first post in this thread skippy. It wasn't about the C7.

 

[upstater]

Saw it in a tweet from Katz or somebody like that. Not arguing on ACC...clearly stronger and better drawing. But I think the C7-BE is also clearly stronger and clearly more northeastern than the A12. It's just us and Temple....and nobody else close.

I count UCF and USF and East Carolina as Eastern. That's 5 teams. Just as the Atlantic Coast is in the East (excepting Louisville. No doubt that the Catholic 5 are more compressed, but let me tell you this: travel to the Catholics is going to be difficult. Multiple connections to at least 2 of those cities. Whereas the A12 is using huge cheap airports flying direct for all but East Carolina (who are not officially into the bball league anyway).

I priced out a comparison between cities like Omaha and Indianapolis and Milwaukee with Dallas, Houston, Memphis, orlando and Tampa, and in every care, I found sub $200 RTs direct to these cities from east coast airports, whereas the midwest cities were costlier and required one stop (except for flying out of NYC).

I don't see a huge difference between the footprints of the two conferences.

I do think that the A12 is hurt by tepid fanbases (i.e. Houston and USF and UCF).

 

[Husky25]

Check out the first post in this thread skippy. It wasn't about the C7.

Why? All of my responses to you do not refer to the initial post of the thread. They refer to your unhealthy man-love to be associated with marginal to mediocre basketball programs in 2013, projected forward. This thread was hijacked long before I got here.

 

[SubbaBub]

The Catholics have essentially been irrelevant to the Big East for a decade. Oh from time to time one or another of Georgetown or Villanova have been good, but the real power in the conference has rested with UConn, Syracuse Pitt, West Virginia then Louisville, Cincy when they joined the league also joined the power club. St Johns, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul have pretty much been irrelevent. Marquette has been a nice team, but I'm not sure they have ever been accepted by the fans as a real Big East team. Now suddenly htey are going to be relevent again? St Johns which aside from catching a little bit of lightnig in a bottle at the end of 2011 has been nothing much is suddenly going to recreate Louie Carnesecca? Is Dave Gavitt somehow going to re-inspire a Providence team that hasn't finished in the upper half of the conference since I don't know when to re-create the days of Ernie D and Marvin Barnes? Count me skeptical.

C-7 is counting on MSG and being away from the 800 lb gorillas will allow them to build a rep as something other than league doormats, which is what they became. They'll do better, but the 80's this ain't.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[HuskyHawk]

I count UCF and USF and East Carolina as Eastern. That's 5 teams. Just as the Atlantic Coast is in the East (excepting Louisville. No doubt that the Catholic 5 are more compressed, but let me tell you this: travel to the Catholics is going to be difficult. Multiple connections to at least 2 of those cities. Whereas the A12 is using huge cheap airports flying direct for all but East Carolina (who are not officially into the bball league anyway).

I priced out a comparison between cities like Omaha and Indianapolis and Milwaukee with Dallas, Houston, Memphis, orlando and Tampa, and in every care, I found sub $200 RTs direct to these cities from east coast airports, whereas the midwest cities were costlier and required one stop (except for flying out of NYC).

I don't see a huge difference between the footprints of the two conferences.

I do think that the A12 is hurt by tepid fanbases (i.e. Houston and USF and UCF).

But Cinci and Dayton are driveable to NYC. Not much different than Pittsburgh. I am talking about the tournament. I don't give a rat's ass about "eastern", the question is "north eastern" and Ohio is a lot closer to that than Florida or NC. So is Indiana for that matter. The new "Big East" maps fairly closely to the B1G, but with more eastern schools.

 

[Jimdish255]

God but I hate to agree with you, but on this, I do. The C7, plus Butler, Dayton, Xavier and later Creighton and SLU is a fantastic basketball conference. The reason? The same reason the Big East was great, depth. The Big East rep was never about UConn, Gtown or Cuse winning a title...it was about a league that was much deeper than any other. A league with few easy wins. The ACC was often stronger at the top, but never as deep. BE teams played well in the tournament (except Pitt and ND) because getting through the BE was a war. You can mock PC all you want, but PC games were never easy. Nor St. Johns.

If they don't win titles or have consistent top 10 teams, the great competition and depth will become nothing more than platitudes as interest wanes.

 

[sammydabiz]

Check out the first post in this thread skippy. It wasn't about the C7.

Ya kidding me? This whole thread caught legs bc you had the audacity to call C7 & the new big east "the prize" of college basketball. You're one delusional dude Nelson

 

[upstater]

But Cinci and Dayton are driveable to NYC. Not much different than Pittsburgh. I am talking about the tournament. I don't give a rat's ass about "eastern", the question is "north eastern" and Ohio is a lot closer to that than Florida or NC. So is Indiana for that matter. The new "Big East" maps fairly closely to the B1G, but with more eastern schools.

Errgh, as someone who drives from Buffalo (8 hours) the trip from Cincy to NYC is a long one. 11 hours doesn't sound good to me. Rather fly. I think you would be very surprised at the amount of people who would never consider an eleven hour drive (with at least 2 stops added in making it a 12 hour). People will fly. And when you fly, the differences are minimal.

 

[uconnfan68]

Big 12 tournament game looked like a funeral. The stands for any ACC game not involving Duke or UNC are going to be pretty empty. Even the second night of the BET, with scrub schools playing, there is more juice than you will see in any Big 12 tournament game not involving Kansas.

ESPN still has the Pac 12 final, which is broadcast at a very mid-majorish 11 pm EDT. How did they convince the Big West to move their final? ESPN is basically saying that half the content of a league they just paid a fortune for is worthless.

Fox got the prize of college basketball for a song when it signed the Big East. ESPN really screwed the pooch on this one, and say what you will about football driving the bus, ESPN depends on CBB for a lot of programming between late November and mid-March. How many ACC games can they broadcast next year? No one cares about SEC basketball outside of Kentucky, Florida, Vanderbilt, Tennessee and Missouri. Mid season rivalry games draw 5k at a lot of SEC schools.

On the flip side, I suspect that with all the content ESPN has lost, the top America 12 matchups will get prime time broadcasts, because ESPN has almost nothing else to show.

On the contrary, they will have an X-Games going on somewhere every other week. That stuff is free for them.

 

[gioff23]

It absolutely matters. College football generates about twice the TV advertising revenue during the regular season that college basketball generates. If you think that roughly $1.0 billion in advertising revenue "doesn't matter", then give some of your hundreds of millions to me. In the postseason, college basketball beats college football by roughly the same 2:1 ratio.

Realignment has played out like a rotisserie league, but what the networks are undervaluing is that fans are not just interested in watching their team, they are interested in watching the opponent. Great movies have great villains. Likewise, fans want to cheer against as much as they want to cheer for. I have shown the analysis before where in the 8 years that BCU has been in the ACC, it has drawn lower average attendance for its conference opponents than it did in 2004 (it's last year in the Big East) 7 times. BCU fans were more interested in a home slate of UConn, Rutgers and Syracuse, when Rutgers and UConn were still emerging programs, than they have been for all but one conference home slate since.

Syracuse fans are going to gradually tune out to a schedule of Clemson, Wake, GTech, and pretty much everyone but BCU and Pitt. The other games just aren't going to matter as much. I will guarantee that WVU's attendance in 3 years will be down from its 2011 attendance. I am not saying the schools made a mistake in leaving, because they both got paid to have a few more empty seats. But the sport as a whole suffers.

So advertising revenues for CBB are down since realignment started? And revenues for CFB are flat since that same time.

And fans watch who is winning, period. You think fans dont go to BC CBB games because NCState is there and Rutgers is not? Really?

Syracuse fans will stop going when Jimmy B's successor proves unable to keep the good times going.

And ad revenues have nothing to do with attnedance at games.

Aside from those few misstatements, you are right, the demise is near for Bristol.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

So advertising revenues for CBB are down since realignment started? And revenues for CFB are flat since that same time.

And fans watch who is winning, period. You think fans dont go to BC CBB games because NCState is there and Rutgers is not? Really?

Syracuse fans will stop going when Jimmy B's successor proves unable to keep the good times going.

And ad revenues have nothing to do with attnedance at games.

Aside from those few misstatements, you are right, the demise is near for Bristol.

You argued that CBB does not matter one iota. You are wrong.

 

[Waquoit]

Errgh, as someone who drives from Buffalo (8 hours) the trip from Cincy to NYC is a long one. 11 hours doesn't sound good to me. Rather fly. I think you would be very surprised at the amount of people who would never consider an eleven hour drive (with at least 2 stops added in making it a 12 hour). People will fly. And when you fly, the differences are minimal.

I don't know what he is he was talking about. Cincy and Dayton are 3.5-4 hours further away than Pittburgh. That ain't hay. But flying to NYC and getting to Manhatten seems like a pain. The train is the thing for the BET.

 

[HuskyHawk]

If they don't win titles or have consistent top 10 teams, the great competition and depth will become nothing more than platitudes as interest wanes.

This is where we disagree. The SEC does that and has little interest.

The future Big East will have ranked teams. St. Louis is currently #14 and Creighton #23. GTown #5, Marquette #12. Lunardi currently has GTown a 2 seed, SLU a 5, Marquette a 4, Butler a 6, Creigton a 7 and Nova a 10. A league with six bids (most fairly strong) won't capture any interest? The A12 has no chance of earning six bids. There are only five teams that even take basketball seriously.

Look at the tournament bracket projections. For all those who say you can't look at football through basketball glasses, the reverse is true as well. Nova is a lock this year and teams with better records from conferences with weak RPI teams at the bottom are not. In basketball, the key is how many top 50 and top 100 teams you have. The Big East always had and will continue to have a bunch. It will be the third best basketball conference in the country, after the ACC and B1G.

 

[upstater]

I don't know what he is he was talking about. Cincy and Dayton are 3.5-4 hours further away than Pittburgh. That ain't hay. But flying to NYC and getting to Manhatten seems like a pain. The train is the thing for the BET.

Flying is a pain. The point I was making is that, whether you're flying from Indianapolis or flying from Dallas, there's really little difference. Hardly any time difference, hardly any money difference (actually it's cheaper from Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Orlando and Tampa than it is from Nebraska, Indy, Milwaukee and St. Louis).

 

[upstater]

This is where we disagree. The SEC does that and has little interest.

The future Big East will have ranked teams. St. Louis is currently #14 and Creighton #23. GTown #5, Marquette #12. Lunardi currently has GTown a 2 seed, SLU a 5, Marquette a 4, Butler a 6, Creigton a 7 and Nova a 10. A league with six bids (most fairly strong) won't capture any interest? The A12 has no chance of earning six bids. There are only five teams that even take basketball seriously.

Look at the tournament bracket projections. For all those who say you can't look at football through basketball glasses, the reverse is true as well. Nova is a lock this year and teams with better records from conferences with weak RPI teams at the bottom are not. In basketball, the key is how many top 50 and top 100 teams you have. The Big East always had and will continue to have a bunch. It will be the third best basketball conference in the country, after the ACC and B1G.

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

 

[sammydabiz]

Lmao, THANK YOU Upstater, I swear the intellect on here sometimes worries me. That argument has been used more than I can count, and its idiotic at best.....smh

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

 

[huskymedic]

The ACC will never move to NY. Almost 90% of ACC respondents in a poll taken earlier this year were against even playing one year in NY. Mst would like to see Greensboro as the perm. home.

Pete Thamel (@SIPeteThamel)
3/14/13, 11:24 AM
My @SInow column on why the ACC Tourney needs to move to the Garden. Will parochialism trump common sense?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130314/acc-madison-square-garden/

 

[upstater]

Lmao, THANK YOU Upstater, I swear the intellect on here sometimes worries me. That argument has been used more than I can count, and its idiotic at best.....smh

You can actually create a funny argument like this: my new conference consisting of Stony Brook, Coppin State, Charleston, Bucknell, and Hofstra has 5 NCAA tourney bids. It will be an incredible conference!

 

[upstater]

Pete Thamel (@SIPeteThamel)
3/14/13, 11:24 AM
My @SInow column on why the ACC Tourney needs to move to the Garden. Will parochialism trump common sense?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130314/acc-madison-square-garden/

A Syracuse shill. Phooey on Thamel. That guy reported a totally fallacious story on Calhoun and UConn in the NY Times, but he never ever says a bad word about Syracuse.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

So St. Louis...ranked and expecting a 6 seed, would not be in the tournament if they played in the current Big East? Seriously? The beat the same New Mexico team that handled UConn pretty well. The A10 will have at least 3 bids, probably 4. It isn't a weak league now, the the C7 is skimming the top. You want weak teams? Go look at the bottom of the big football conferences, those are the worst teams.

 

[upstater]

So St. Louis...ranked and expecting a 6 seed, would not be in the tournament if they played in the current Big East? Seriously? The beat the same New Mexico team that handled UConn pretty well. The A10 will have at least 3 bids, probably 4. It isn't a weak league now, the the C7 is skimming the top. You want weak teams? Go look at the bottom of the big football conferences, those are the worst teams.

UConn beat Syracuse and lost to South Florida.
Let's not play this game.
If you can't understand the point I made, I can't help you any further with this.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You can actually create a funny argument like this: my new conference consisting of Stony Brook, Coppin State, Charleston, Bucknell, and Hofstra has 5 NCAA tourney bids. It will be an incredible conference!

That's an absurd comparison. Nothing schools that have never done anything but get in once in a blue moon (and in Bucknell's case, spring an upset). Very few tournament wins lifetime for those schools. Not a reasonable comparison to schools like Xavier, Butler and Nova with solid histories or even Dayton and SLU. Here are the all-time tournament appearances and records.

I am not suggesting the New Big East will be anything like the old Big East. Losing UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, WVU and Pitt is massive. You cannot replace that. But the new Big East teams have been above average programs over long periods of time. It will be good.