I hope ESPN is happy with what they did to hoops

[HuskyHawk]

If they don't win titles or have consistent top 10 teams, the great competition and depth will become nothing more than platitudes as interest wanes.

This is where we disagree. The SEC does that and has little interest.

The future Big East will have ranked teams. St. Louis is currently #14 and Creighton #23. GTown #5, Marquette #12. Lunardi currently has GTown a 2 seed, SLU a 5, Marquette a 4, Butler a 6, Creigton a 7 and Nova a 10. A league with six bids (most fairly strong) won't capture any interest? The A12 has no chance of earning six bids. There are only five teams that even take basketball seriously.

Look at the tournament bracket projections. For all those who say you can't look at football through basketball glasses, the reverse is true as well. Nova is a lock this year and teams with better records from conferences with weak RPI teams at the bottom are not. In basketball, the key is how many top 50 and top 100 teams you have. The Big East always had and will continue to have a bunch. It will be the third best basketball conference in the country, after the ACC and B1G.

 

[upstater]

I don't know what he is he was talking about. Cincy and Dayton are 3.5-4 hours further away than Pittburgh. That ain't hay. But flying to NYC and getting to Manhatten seems like a pain. The train is the thing for the BET.

Flying is a pain. The point I was making is that, whether you're flying from Indianapolis or flying from Dallas, there's really little difference. Hardly any time difference, hardly any money difference (actually it's cheaper from Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Orlando and Tampa than it is from Nebraska, Indy, Milwaukee and St. Louis).

 

[upstater]

This is where we disagree. The SEC does that and has little interest.

The future Big East will have ranked teams. St. Louis is currently #14 and Creighton #23. GTown #5, Marquette #12. Lunardi currently has GTown a 2 seed, SLU a 5, Marquette a 4, Butler a 6, Creigton a 7 and Nova a 10. A league with six bids (most fairly strong) won't capture any interest? The A12 has no chance of earning six bids. There are only five teams that even take basketball seriously.

Look at the tournament bracket projections. For all those who say you can't look at football through basketball glasses, the reverse is true as well. Nova is a lock this year and teams with better records from conferences with weak RPI teams at the bottom are not. In basketball, the key is how many top 50 and top 100 teams you have. The Big East always had and will continue to have a bunch. It will be the third best basketball conference in the country, after the ACC and B1G.

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

 

[sammydabiz]

Lmao, THANK YOU Upstater, I swear the intellect on here sometimes worries me. That argument has been used more than I can count, and its idiotic at best.....smh

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

 

[huskymedic]

The ACC will never move to NY. Almost 90% of ACC respondents in a poll taken earlier this year were against even playing one year in NY. Mst would like to see Greensboro as the perm. home.

Pete Thamel (@SIPeteThamel)
3/14/13, 11:24 AM
My @SInow column on why the ACC Tourney needs to move to the Garden. Will parochialism trump common sense?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130314/acc-madison-square-garden/

 

[upstater]

Lmao, THANK YOU Upstater, I swear the intellect on here sometimes worries me. That argument has been used more than I can count, and its idiotic at best.....smh

You can actually create a funny argument like this: my new conference consisting of Stony Brook, Coppin State, Charleston, Bucknell, and Hofstra has 5 NCAA tourney bids. It will be an incredible conference!

 

[upstater]

Pete Thamel (@SIPeteThamel)
3/14/13, 11:24 AM
My @SInow column on why the ACC Tourney needs to move to the Garden. Will parochialism trump common sense?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130314/acc-madison-square-garden/

A Syracuse shill. Phooey on Thamel. That guy reported a totally fallacious story on Calhoun and UConn in the NY Times, but he never ever says a bad word about Syracuse.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

So St. Louis...ranked and expecting a 6 seed, would not be in the tournament if they played in the current Big East? Seriously? The beat the same New Mexico team that handled UConn pretty well. The A10 will have at least 3 bids, probably 4. It isn't a weak league now, the the C7 is skimming the top. You want weak teams? Go look at the bottom of the big football conferences, those are the worst teams.

 

[upstater]

So St. Louis...ranked and expecting a 6 seed, would not be in the tournament if they played in the current Big East? Seriously? The beat the same New Mexico team that handled UConn pretty well. The A10 will have at least 3 bids, probably 4. It isn't a weak league now, the the C7 is skimming the top. You want weak teams? Go look at the bottom of the big football conferences, those are the worst teams.

UConn beat Syracuse and lost to South Florida.
Let's not play this game.
If you can't understand the point I made, I can't help you any further with this.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You can actually create a funny argument like this: my new conference consisting of Stony Brook, Coppin State, Charleston, Bucknell, and Hofstra has 5 NCAA tourney bids. It will be an incredible conference!

That's an absurd comparison. Nothing schools that have never done anything but get in once in a blue moon (and in Bucknell's case, spring an upset). Very few tournament wins lifetime for those schools. Not a reasonable comparison to schools like Xavier, Butler and Nova with solid histories or even Dayton and SLU. Here are the all-time tournament appearances and records.

I am not suggesting the New Big East will be anything like the old Big East. Losing UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, WVU and Pitt is massive. You cannot replace that. But the new Big East teams have been above average programs over long periods of time. It will be good.

 

[upstater]

That's an absurd comparison. Nothing schools that have never done anything but get in once in a blue moon (and in Bucknell's case, spring an upset). Very few tournament wins lifetime for those schools. Not a reasonable comparison to schools like Xavier, Butler and Nova with solid histories or even Dayton and SLU. Here are the all-time tournament appearances and records.

I am not suggesting the New Big East will be anything like the old Big East. Losing UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, WVU and Pitt is massive. You cannot replace that. But the new Big East teams have been above average programs over long periods of time. It will be good.

I wrote that it was absurd! I didn't say it was a comparison. Yes, I know it's absurd. So is your logic.

The point is, just because these teams are making the NCAA this year from the Horizon League, and the Big East, and the Big Ten, and the Missouri Valley, wherever the heck they are coming from, doesn't mean that they can do it again once aggregated in the new BE. They will all start playing each other, and losing to one another, and that will knock out the easy bids. Creighton isn't going to feast on Missouri State or Northern Iowa twice a year any more.

 

[tzznandrew]

Upstater is right here.

There are a disproportionate number of bad teams in the A10 and Missouri Valley. Exempting DePaul, which was 2-16 in the Big East and didn't schedule good teams, you look at the bottom of the conference, and Seton Hall, South Florida, and the like generally beat all of their non-BCS opponents. When you look at the bottom of the A-10, their losing to all sorts of terrible teams.

KenPom Ratings of the .500 and below teams in A-10, MVC, BE:
A-10
Dusquesne - 243
Fordham - 251
Rhode Island - 192
George Washington - 110
St. Bonaventure - 118
MVC
Southern Illinois - 182
Missouri State - 210
Drake - 123
Bradley - 175
Big East
DePaul - 164
Seton Hall - 114
South Florida - 144
Rutgers - 104

You rank those schools: Rutgers, GW, Seton Hall, St. Bonny, Drake, DePaul, Bradley, Southern Ill., URI, Missouri State, Dusquesne, Fordham.

DePaul is better than 6 of those schools. All of which suggests winning against the bottom of the BE is harder than winning against the bottom of the other leagues. Also, when you look at the top, there are more top teams, and so they'll have fewer games against LaSalle, and more games against GTown. Someone's got to lose...

 

[HuskyHawk]

I wrote that it was absurd! I didn't say it was a comparison. Yes, I know it's absurd. So is your logic.

The point is, just because these teams are making the NCAA this year from the Horizon League, and the Big East, and the Big Ten, and the Missouri Valley, wherever the heck they are coming from, doesn't mean that they can do it again once aggregated in the new BE. They will all start playing each other, and losing to one another, and that will knock out the easy bids. Creighton isn't going to feast on Missouri State or Northern Iowa twice a year any more.

So you are saying that the competition in the new Big East will be much heavier, due to all the quality opponents...and that's why it is a lousy league nobody will want to watch and it won't get many bids. Got it.

You are making my argument for me. There are no crappy teams in it. Therefore SOS and RPI will be high, and the top 3-5 teams (maybe more) will make the tournament. Unlike the SEC which this year has Florida, Missouri and bunch of crap. Or the Pac, which never has more than 3 or 4 decent teams. It won't be overly top heavy, but that's a good thing.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Upstater is right here.

There are a disproportionate number of bad teams in the A10 and Missouri Valley. Exempting DePaul, which was 2-16 in the Big East and didn't schedule good teams, you look at the bottom of the conference, and Seton Hall, South Florida, and the like generally beat all of their non-BCS opponents. When you look at the bottom of the A-10, their losing to all sorts of terrible teams.

KenPom Ratings of the .500 and below teams in A-10, MVC, BE:
A-10
Dusquesne - 243
Fordham - 251
Rhode Island - 192
George Washington - 110
St. Bonaventure - 118
MVC
Southern Illinois - 182
Missouri State - 210
Drake - 123
Bradley - 175
Big East
DePaul - 164
Seton Hall - 114
South Florida - 144
Rutgers - 104

You rank those schools: Rutgers, GW, Seton Hall, St. Bonny, Drake, DePaul, Bradley, Southern Ill., URI, Missouri State, Dusquesne, Fordham.

DePaul is better than 6 of those schools. All of which suggests winning against the bottom of the BE is harder than winning against the bottom of the other leagues. Also, when you look at the top, there are more top teams, and so they'll have fewer games against LaSalle, and more games against GTown. Someone's got to lose...

Of course! But the bottom team in the new Big East will still be DePaul! The records for schools like Creighton will go down...but the SOS will go up. They won't need 25-26 wins to get in.

We will just have to see how it plays out. I don't think those teams are weak programs that only win due to weak schedules. They are consistently at the top of their leagues. I think that playing each other will make them better, as it has in the current Big East.

 

[upstater]

So you are saying that the competition in the new Big East will be much heavier, due to all the quality opponents...and that's why it is a lousy league nobody will want to watch and it won't get many bids. Got it.

You are making my argument for me. There are no crappy teams in it. Therefore SOS and RPI will be high, and the top 3-5 teams (maybe more) will make the tournament. Unlike the SEC which this year has Florida, Missouri and bunch of crap. Or the Pac, which never has more than 3 or 4 decent teams. It won't be overly top heavy, but that's a good thing.

Wow, unreal. I can't believe you can't understand the posts. Some of the teams are coming from weak conferences where they feasted on very weak competition. I doubt you've even seen these teams on TV--they are never on. When is the last time you watched Missouri State? No more wins against M.S.U. None.

So all the bids they got this year are irrelevant!

 

[upstater]

Of course! But the bottom team in the new Big East will still be DePaul! The records for schools like Creighton will go down...but the SOS will go up. They won't need 25-26 wins to get in.

We will just have to see how it plays out. I don't think those teams are weak programs that only win due to weak schedules. They are consistently at the top of their leagues. I think that playing each other will make them better, as it has in the current Big East.

Other than Butler, these MV and Horizon teams flame out of the NCAA. Creighton has been to the NCAAs 13 times since 1975, and never once advanced to the Sweet 16!

Creighton and Dayton are like Masturbatin' rather than Matin'!

 

[tzznandrew]

Of course! But the bottom team in the new Big East will still be DePaul! The records for schools like Creighton will go down...but the SOS will go up. They won't need 25-26 wins to get in.

We will just have to see how it plays out. I don't think those teams are weak programs that only win due to weak schedules. They are consistently at the top of their leagues. I think that playing each other will make them better, as it has in the current Big East.

The problem is that while their SOS will go up, many of their RPIs will go down, as they will lose a lot more games. I highly doubt you'll see St. Louis only have 6 losses. Once they move towards 10 or so, they're going to be closer to the bubble than to the tournament.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

You're comparing teams from several different conferences (many of which are pretty weak). These teams won't be going to the NCAA every year. Weak schedules contribute to their current position.

It's illogical. An 8-8 St. Louis team or an 8-8 Creighton team isn't going to get a bid.

Maybe, maybe not. They will be on the bubble in what will be the #3 RPI conference most years. I can't figure out what you are arguing in this thread.

My original point was that there were several very good basketball leagues prior to realignment that fans cared about and had good rivalries. There will be bits and pieces of that after realignment.

 

[Husky25]

The C-7 = Mid-major; A-12 = Mid-major; The Horizon League = Mid-major; OVC = Mid-Major; The A-10 = Mid-Major; MVC = Mid-major. Regardless of how it's spun, putting them together in any way shape or form just makes a larger mid-major conference, of which the bottom remains the C-7 (a.k.a. Nelson's crown jewel).

 

[upstater]

Maybe, maybe not. They will be on the bubble in what will be the #3 RPI conference most years. I can't figure out what you are arguing in this thread.

My original point was that there were several very good basketball leagues prior to realignment that fans cared about and had good rivalries. There will be bits and pieces of that after realignment.

My response was to HuskyHawk, not you.

 

[tzznandrew]

The C-7 = Mid-major; A-12 = Mid-major; The Horizon League = Mid-major; OVC = Mid-Major; The A-10 = Mid-Major; MVC = Mid-major. Regardless of how it's spun, putting them together in any way shape or form just makes a larger mid-major conference, of which the bottom remains the C-7 (a.k.a. Nelson's crown jewel).

If you're suggesting that the C-7 is worse than those conferences, you're crazy.

The Mountain West, A-12 (at least next year with Louisville included), and C-7 will all be pretty darn good basketball conferences, probably better than the SEC and Pac-12 most years.

 

[upstater]

If you're suggesting that the C-7 is worse than those conferences, you're crazy.

The Mountain West, A-12 (at least next year with Louisville included), and C-7 will all be pretty darn good basketball conferences, probably better than the SEC and Pac-12 most years.

MW does nothing for me. Those teams tend to flame out fast in the tourney. Remember the year we played a ranked Utah State?

 

[Husky25]

If you're suggesting that the C-7 is worse than those conferences, you're crazy.

The Mountain West, A-12 (at least next year with Louisville included), and C-7 will all be pretty darn good basketball conferences, probably better than the SEC and Pac-12 most years.

I'm suggesting that the dredges of the old Big East (PC, SJU, Depaul, and SHU) is just that and should not think of themselves as pulling a coup by leaving the football faction behind. These teams had a hard time making the Big East Tourney, let alone the Big Dance. Its like a parasite that detaches itself from its host before realizing right quick it better find a new one before it dies.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The problem is that while their SOS will go up, many of their RPIs will go down, as they will lose a lot more games. I highly doubt you'll see St. Louis only have 6 losses. Once they move towards 10 or so, they're going to be closer to the bubble than to the tournament.

Just like Villanova this year. Yes. That is what I expect. 2-3 locks a year and another 2-3 bubble teams, with 4-6 total bids. Which would make them a pretty solid conference. Behind the ACC and B1G by miles...but after them? Are they really behind the Pac and Big XII by much if any?

It's going to be interesting with the newly strengthened ACC. How many bids will they get? Will WF, NCST and GT awaken from their slumber or be pounded by our ex conference foes?

 

[tzznandrew]

MW does nothing for me. Those teams tend to flame out fast in the tourney. Remember the year we played a ranked Utah State?

San Diego State nearly beat us in 2011, and BYU went to the S16
In 2012, New Mexico nearly beat Louisville, who went on to the Final Four.

True that other teams from the league flamed out, but they've been much better recently.