OT: Hurricane Ida hitting Gulf on Katrina's 16th anniversary

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Methinks it might have been a personal message from your garbage hauler….

"Take the garbage can; leave the fish."

 

[CONN78SEJ]

On August 29th 2005 Katrina hit New Orleans as a Cat 3 (was 5 at sea).

Ida is now a Cat 4 expected to make landfall in New Orleans area Sunday.

Those in its path stay safe, it looks scary!

View attachment 69481

Today is the 86th anniversary of the Labor Day Keys Hurricane in 1935. Central barometric pressure of 892mb, lowest in the Atlantic basin. Sustained winds of 195mph with gusts to 215.

1935 Labor Day hurricane - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Kitaman]

The decade of the 1930’s, otherwise remembered as “The Dirty Thirties” is still the warmest decade on record in the United States. The record highs set then are still records. North Dakota 121F, New York City 106F, among them.

Add this to it:

 

[Chin Diesel]

Storms like Ida are a great reminder of why terms like Cat 1,2,3,4,5 are mostly headline grabbers. Aside from the massive hurrricanes like Michael where winds were 130-150 mph, wind doesn't destroy communities and lives like water and rain.

Size of the storm, consistency of the rain bands and speed of the storm are much better indicators of how much damage will be done by a storm.

I took from mid afternoon Saturday until Thursday morning to move from Louisiana to New England. It was a very slow moving storm which had nothing from the south, west or northwest to move it along. Just kinda meandered through the Appalachians.

 

[Kitaman]

Storms like Ida are a great reminder of why terms like Cat 1,2,3,4,5 are mostly headline grabbers. Aside from the massive hurrricanes like Michael where winds were 130-150 mph, wind doesn't destroy communities and lives like water and rain.

Size of the storm, consistency of the rain bands and speed of the storm are much better indicators of how much damage will be done by a storm.

I took from mid afternoon Saturday until Thursday morning to move from Louisiana to New England. It was a very slow moving storm which had nothing from the south, west or northwest to move it along. Just kinda meandered through the Appalachians.

Come to think of it, I can't remember what Cat Sandy was. I vividly remember the damage done to my neighborhood and house though.

Went to Amelia Island a couple of years ago, and there was still reminders of the hurricane (Matthew?). Locals there didn't talk about Cat numbers when describing it. I would bet Katrina victims don't talk Cat either.

Just saying when you've been 'touched' by a bad hurricane no one I know talks Cat numbers; just damage, gratefulness and recovery.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Come to think of it, I can't remember what Cat Sandy was. I vividly remember the damage done to my neighborhood and house though.

Went to Amelia Island a couple of years ago, and there was still reminders of the hurricane (Matthew?). Locals there didn't talk about Cat numbers when describing it. I would bet Katrina victims don't talk Cat either.

Just saying when you've been 'touched' by a bad hurricane no one I know talks Cat numbers; just damage, gratefulness and recovery.

good point. You'll sometimes see buildings which survive these storms with markers on the wall showing how high the water rose inside it. I don't ever remember seeing walls or other markings showing the maximum winds sustained by the same structure.

It is important for those who are in the storm area to know what the maximum wind speed may be but that's almost more of a crap shoot since very few in the area will actually experience winds at that top speed. Many more feel the effects of the rain directly and then the flooding of buildings, waterways and utility infrastructure.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Come to think of it, I can't remember what Cat Sandy was. I vividly remember the damage done to my neighborhood and house though.

Went to Amelia Island a couple of years ago, and there was still reminders of the hurricane (Matthew?). Locals there didn't talk about Cat numbers when describing it. I would bet Katrina victims don't talk Cat either.

Just saying when you've been 'touched' by a bad hurricane no one I know talks Cat numbers; just damage, gratefulness and recovery.

Sandy was a Cat 1

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Storms like Ida are a great reminder of why terms like Cat 1,2,3,4,5 are mostly headline grabbers. Aside from the massive hurrricanes like Michael where winds were 130-150 mph, wind doesn't destroy communities and lives like water and rain.

Size of the storm, consistency of the rain bands and speed of the storm are much better indicators of how much damage will be done by a storm.

I took from mid afternoon Saturday until Thursday morning to move from Louisiana to New England. It was a very slow moving storm which had nothing from the south, west or northwest to move it along. Just kinda meandered through the Appalachians.

Yes mostly, it’s very rare when a Cat 5 Hurricane hits the coastline with full Cat 5 intensity though there are several examples. In addition to the 1935 Labor Day Keys Hurricane, Hurricane Andrew did tremendous wind damage throughout central Florida and is one of very very few storms that intensified after landfall. Camille in 1969 also hit with tremendous Cat 5 wind damage and a 34 foot storm surge. The 1938 Hurricane that hit New England and killed 800 people on Long Island was a Cat 5 but weakened well before landfall, though gusts of 185 mph were still recorded in coastal Massachusetts. On a side note, in the aftermath of the 1935 Keys hurricane all the wind measuring devices were blown away however engineers calculated from the catastrophic damage that the winds approached 220 mph. The most intense hurricanes world wide were Patricia, Cyclone Zoe and Cyclone Winston (South Pacific) and Cyclone Monica (Australia). Patricia holds several measured records for barometric pressure (which is what causes the storm surge) and wind speed. If the 1935 Labor Day keys storm could have been measured by the technologies we have today it probably would have surpassed Patricia in the record books.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Yes mostly, it’s very rare when a Cat 5 Hurricane hits the coastline with full Cat 5 intensity though there are several examples. In addition to the 1935 Labor Day Keys Hurricane, Hurricane Andrew did tremendous wind damage throughout central Florida and is one of very very few storms that intensified after landfall. Camille in 1969 also hit with tremendous Cat 5 wind damage and a 34 foot storm surge. The 1938 Hurricane that hit New England and killed 800 people on Long Island was a Cat 5 but weakened well before landfall, though gusts of 185 mph were still recorded in coastal Massachusetts. On a side note, in the aftermath of the 1935 Keys hurricane all the wind measuring devices were blown away however engineers calculated from the catastrophic damage that the winds approached 220 mph. The most intense hurricanes world wide were Patricia, Cyclone Zoe and Cyclone Winston (South Pacific) and Cyclone Monica (Australia). Patricia holds several measured records for barometric pressure (which is what causes the storm surge) and wind speed. If the 1935 Labor Day keys storm could have been measured by the technologies we have today it probably would have surpassed Patricia in the record books.

Don't forget about Michael in 2018.

#3 behind Andrew and Camille.

Hurricane Michael - Wikipedia

 

[ClifSpliffy]

nothing aboot this one is 'over,' down there.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

or here.

be thankful iffn you made it thru in one piece. give some charity.

 

[Dove]

Sandy was a Cat 1

They were hesitant to call it a hurricane. It was Super Storm Sandy.

 

[Jmsdawg]

Ida looks to have hit the Northeast hard. Mother in law lives in Mississippi fortunately her damage was limited to downed trees. My heart aches for you guys, praying you recover soon.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

They were hesitant to call it a hurricane. It was Super Storm Sandy.

It briefly dropped down to tropical storm status as it came up the coast, then reintensified to a minimal hurricane. When it moved ashore in New Jersey it’s peak winds were 80mph. What made Sandy so bad was it merged with an extra tropical low, and moved ashore when there were astronomically high tides in the northeast which greatly magnified the storm surge.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Come to think of it, I can't remember what Cat Sandy was. I vividly remember the damage done to my neighborhood and house though.

Went to Amelia Island a couple of years ago, and there was still reminders of the hurricane (Matthew?). Locals there didn't talk about Cat numbers when describing it. I would bet Katrina victims don't talk Cat either.

Just saying when you've been 'touched' by a bad hurricane no one I know talks Cat numbers; just damage, gratefulness and recovery.

Katrina victims lived on reclaimed land that’s below sea level, and poorly built levies failed. High winds do not contribute much to the storm surge either, most of the surge is caused by the actual low pressure not the winds. The pressure gradient also contributes greatly to how high the winds get, in a Cat 5 the winds can become tornado like, which is what happened in Hurricane Andrew. What can magnify the surge as the hurricane comes ashore are astronomically high tides which is what happened in Sandy. Water did the damage to your house and neighborhood, not the winds.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Katrina victims lived on reclaimed land that’s below sea level, and poorly built levies failed. High winds do not contribute much to the storm surge either, most of the surge is caused by the actual low pressure not the winds. The pressure gradient also contributes greatly to how high the winds get, in a Cat 5 the winds can become tornado like, which is what happened in Hurricane Andrew. What can magnify the surge as the hurricane comes ashore are astronomically high tides which is what happened in Sandy. Water did the damage to your house and neighborhood, not the winds.

Ida's winds and surge were strong enough to reverse the flow of the Mississippi River.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Ida's winds and surge were strong enough to reverse the flow of the Mississippi River.

The surge did, not the winds. Do you know what a hurricane’s surge actually is??? A hurricane storm surge is a bubble of water at sea that moves with the storms forward motion. The top of that bubble sits right underneath the hurricanes eye. The bubble is a function of the hurricane’s barometric pressure, the lower the barometric pressure the bigger or higher it gets. As the hurricane moves onshore the bubble moves along with it, and that is what causes the surge and all the flooding. The steepness of the pressure gradient, or how fast the pressure falls as you go toward the eye also determines the steepness of the surge or bubble. Remember that a hurricane is a circular area of low pressure or a depression in the atmosphere (troposphere) with winds spiraling in toward it, it’s like water flowing down a circular depression in the ground, the steeper the gradient, the faster it will flow in toward the center. With the steepness of the circular depression in the ground analogous to the pressure gradient in a depression in the atmosphere. Hope that makes sense.

 

[superjohn]

Dr. Mel Goldstein in the house!

 

[Chin Diesel]

The surge did, not the winds. Do you know what a hurricane’s surge actually is??? A hurricane storm surge is a bubble of water at sea that moves with the storms forward motion. The top of that bubble sits right underneath the hurricanes eye. The bubble is a function of the hurricane’s barometric pressure, the lower the barometric pressure the bigger or higher it gets. As the hurricane moves onshore the bubble moves along with it, and that is what causes the surge and all the flooding. The steepness of the pressure gradient, or how fast the pressure falls as you go toward the eye also determines the steepness of the surge or bubble. Remember that a hurricane is a circular area of low pressure or a depression in the atmosphere (troposphere) with winds spiraling in toward it, it’s like water flowing down a circular depression in the ground, the steeper the gradient, the faster it will flow in toward the center. With the steepness of the circular depression in the ground analogous to the pressure gradient in a depression in the atmosphere. Hope that makes sense.

You realize the winds and the speed of the storm moves the surge along?

 

[UCSouth]

Dr. Mel Goldstein in the house!

I can't believe he is talking to @Chin Diesel like that. Silly boy...lol

 

[CONN78SEJ]

You realize the winds and the speed of the storm moves the surge along?

Lol. I don’t think you’re realizing anything. Say the storm stalls and has NO forward speed. Ok? With me here? It’s stationary, not moving, but the winds are spinning at 200 mph around the eye. Is there still a surge or wall of water somewhere if the storm stalls or even slows down to say 5mph right at landfall? Does the surge collapse? Many severe hurricanes in history have strengthened rapidly during a stall, such as Cat 5 Hurricane Camille for example. Another question, where does all that air spinning in towards the eye go when it reaches the eye? And why are there no or very few clouds in the eye? The winds spinning around the eye play a minimal role in a hurricane’s surge. The surge is almost totally dependent on the low barometric pressure. Hurricanes winds and forward speed play a minimal role in the surge, there are a couple of exceptions in the historical record, such as the 1938 Hurricane that hit New England and Long Island. I’ll give you that, but it’s rare.

 

[Dove]

Lol. I don’t think you’re realizing anything. Say the storm stalls and has NO forward speed. Ok? With me here? It’s stationary, not moving, but the winds are spinning at 200 mph around the eye. Is there still a surge or wall of water somewhere if the storm stalls or even slows down to say 5mph right at landfall? Does the surge collapse? Many severe hurricanes in history have strengthened rapidly during a stall, such as Cat 5 Hurricane Camille for example. Another question, where does all that air spinning in towards the eye go when it reaches the eye? And why are there no or very few clouds in the eye? The winds spinning around the eye play a minimal role in a hurricane’s surge. The surge is almost totally dependent on the low barometric pressure. Hurricanes winds and forward speed play a minimal role in the surge, there are a couple of exceptions in the historical record, such as the 1938 Hurricane that hit New England and Long Island. I’ll give you that, but it’s rare.

Preach @CONN78SEJ !!!

 

[Chin Diesel]

Lol. I don’t think you’re realizing anything. Say the storm stalls and has NO forward speed. Ok? With me here? It’s stationary, not moving, but the winds are spinning at 200 mph around the eye. Is there still a surge or wall of water somewhere if the storm stalls or even slows down to say 5mph right at landfall? Does the surge collapse? Many severe hurricanes in history have strengthened rapidly during a stall, such as Cat 5 Hurricane Camille for example. Another question, where does all that air spinning in towards the eye go when it reaches the eye? And why are there no or very few clouds in the eye? The winds spinning around the eye play a minimal role in a hurricane’s surge. The surge is almost totally dependent on the low barometric pressure. Hurricanes winds and forward speed play a minimal role in the surge, there are a couple of exceptions in the historical record, such as the 1938 Hurricane that hit New England and Long Island. I’ll give you that, but it’s rare.

I'm sure you feel very happy with yourself explaining it to yourself.

TL;DR.

Winds from a storm can be strong enough to reverse water flow on the surface of river which is what happened here. No one has said or suggested the entire river moved in the opposite direction.

I've already said it was a combination of effects from the storm. You are the one going all in on surge alone can affect the direction of water flow. Wind speed and amount of surge are both correlated to system pressure but they are different and affect different land areas differently.

If you aren't sure what happens to the winds as they spin and move towards the eye, or why there is a calm gap of air in the eye, try googling it. Lots of information on that search engine.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'll exit at this. The same information and quotes from the same guy working with the USGS.

As I've said it's a combination of wind and surge.

Near New Orleans, Hurricane Ida forces Mississippi River to reverse flow - CNN

"Storm surge and strong winds from Hurricane Ida stopped the flow of the Mississippi River near New Orleans on Sunday and actually caused it to reverse -- something the US Geological Survey says is "extremely uncommon.""

"During Hurricane Laura, strong winds blew the top layer of the Mississippi River upriver away from the Gulf and slowed the river's main current."

"By comparison, Hurricane Ida is forecast to bring a lower storm surge of 12-16 feet to some areas of southeast Louisiana, the NHC says. And near New Orleans it's expected to be even lower: 8-12 feet outside New Orleans and 5-8 feet along Lake Pontchartrain.
That's because the wind field was larger for Katrina: 90 miles from center at landfall, compared to 50 miles for Ida."

 

[CONN78SEJ]

I'm sure you feel very happy with yourself explaining it to yourself.

TL;DR.

Winds from a storm can be strong enough to reverse water flow on the surface of river which is what happened here. No one has said or suggested the entire river moved in the opposite direction.

I've already said it was a combination of effects from the storm. You are the one going all in on surge alone can affect the direction of water flow. Wind speed and amount of surge are both correlated to system pressure but they are different and affect different land areas differently.

If you aren't sure what happens to the winds as they spin and move towards the eye, or why there is a calm gap of air in the eye, try googling it. Lots of information on that search engine.

I already knew the answers to those questions? I was asking you. You don’t know what you’re talking about so you google something and quote someone who could be very wrong. Experts can have differing opinions, doesn’t mean they’re wrong or right. As for my credentials, I have worked with Joe Furey, Scott Haney, and knew Dr Mel Goldstein many years ago, though never worked with him. I attended Lyndon State College majoring in Meteorology with a Physics minor. I also am a UConn Husky fan so I had to run into a pompous knowitall like you on a fan board. Have a nice day!!!