How UL won the battle to the ACC

[FfldCntyFan]

From what I remember back when this was going down the biggest thing in Louisville's favor was that there was still a very strong possibility of FSU accepting an offer from the B-12. The ACC was basically put in a position where a sufficient number of members needed to believe that adding us over UL was worth the possibility of losing FSU (and quite likely Clemson if FSU wanted them to come along as member 12). One ACC school even stated something to the effect of 'if we turn Louisville down today we will need to add them tomorrow anyway'.

FSU made it pretty damned clear that they saw us as a significant negative in terms of football perception (and what our addition would do to the conference's overall perception) while Louisville was nowhere near that much of a negative. My guess is that this was due to our taking the lazy/easy path in replacing Edsall while Jurich made a bold move in bringing in Strong one year earlier. How fair was this (considering Jurich's earlier Kragthorpe hire)? I don't know but Jurich worked this significantly and supposedly the connections UL had with FSU and Va Tech from their old Metro Conference days were played to the fullest, including the constant reminder of how the original BE members (which we were one of) treated VT when they tried to become a full BE member.

 

[SAMCRO]

No reason to abandon the we're so awesome at everything that everyone is afraid of us talking point I guess. Still I have to think there are other reasons.


UCONN has never beaten BC in football, and you're not speaking from a position of strength after a 3-9 season. Still like so many things if you say it enough you can convince yourself it's true even if there's no factual backing.

Well, I guess if BC's former AD hadn't been quoted directly as saying he didn't want UConn in the ACC due to wanting to own New England we wouldn't have this belief that BC didn't want to help UConn into the ACC so they could try and own New England.

 

[btstimpy]

From what I remember back when this was going down the biggest thing in Louisville's favor was that there was still a very strong possibility of FSU accepting an offer from the B-12. The ACC was basically put in a position where a sufficient number of members needed to believe that adding us over UL was worth the possibility of losing FSU (and quite likely Clemson if FSU wanted them to come along as member 12). One ACC school even stated something to the effect of 'if we turn Louisville down today we will need to add them tomorrow anyway'.

FSU made it pretty damned clear that they saw us as a significant negative in terms of football perception (and what our addition would do to the conference's overall perception) while Louisville was nowhere near that much of a negative. My guess is that this was due to our taking the lazy/easy path in replacing Edsall while Jurich made a bold move in bringing in Strong one year earlier. How fair was this (considering Jurich's earlier Kragthorpe hire)? I don't know but Jurich worked this significantly and supposedly the connections UL had with FSU and Va Tech from their old Metro Conference days were played to the fullest, including the constant reminder of how the original BE members (which we were one of) treated VT when they tried to become a full BE member.

I find it very hard to believe that Virginia Tech would be any sort of advocate for Louisville. Louisville was a ring leader who helped dump Virginia Tech when the clique of Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis helped merge the Metro Conference and Great Midwestern Conference to form Conference USA. Virginia Tech and Virginia Commonwealth both received a surprising letter in the mail from the President of UNC-Charlotte that they were officially not wanted anymore in the Metro Conference. Virginia Tech sued for $7.9 Million in damages. Virginia Tech had to scramble for an Atlantic 10 invite. VCU scrambled for a CAA invite. It was very ugly.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950202&slug=2102750

I can't imagine that UConn did anything worse to Virginia Tech in the Big East than what Louisville did in the Metro. I'm not sure how the Big East stuff went down though. I can see VT supporting the other ACC football schools like FSU, Clemson, and GT in this last vote, but I know they held their nose regarding Louisville. Now that Louisville is in the ACC, Louisville may want to rebuild this Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis clique in the ACC. They successfully built it in the AAC before Louisville was invited to the ACC. I think the AAC basketball tournament is going to be in Memphis soon. I don't want this for the ACC. I'm OK with Louisville, but that's it from that group. Let the Big XII have Cincinnati and Memphis if they need to joing a P5 Conference. Otherwise the AAC is fine for them.

I'm an advocate for UConn to join the ACC. I'm hopefull UConn, Syracuse, Boston College, and Miami could figure out how to get along well enough to help make that happen. They were all friends once. If UConn could build that support group, I think it would happen.

 

[B1GALUM]

I find it very hard to believe that Virginia Tech would be any sort of advocate for Louisville. Louisville was a ring leader who helped dump Virginia Tech when the clique of Louisville, Cincinnati, and Memphis helped merge the Metro Conference and Great Midwestern Conference to form Conference USA. Virginia Tech and Virginia Commonwealth both received a surprising letter in the mail from the President of UNC-Charlotte that they were officially not wanted anymore in the Metro Conference. Virginia Tech sued for $7.9 Million in damages. Virginia Tech had to scramble for an Atlantic 10 invite. VCU scrambled for a CAA invite. It was very ugly.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19950202&slug=2102750

I can't imagine that UConn did anything worse to Virginia Tech in the Big East than what Louisville did in the Metro. I'm not sure how the Big East stuff went down though. I can see VT supporting the other ACC football schools like FSU, Clemson, and GT in this last vote, but I know they held their nose regarding Louisville. Now that Louisville is in the ACC, Louisville may want to rebuild this Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis clique in the ACC. They successfully built it in the AAC before Louisville was invited to the ACC. I think the AAC basketball tournament is going to be in Memphis soon. I don't want this for the ACC. I'm OK with Louisville, but that's it from that group. Let the Big XII have Cincinnati and Memphis if they need to joing a P5 Conference. Otherwise the AAC is fine for them.

I'm an advocate for UConn to join the ACC. I'm hopefull UConn, Syracuse, Boston College, and Miami could figure out how to get along well enough to help make that happen. They were all friends once. If UConn could build that support group, I think it would happen.

As an ACC outsider, I would think the addition of UConn and Cincinnati would be a great pick up for the ACC. UConn would clearly be a fantastic add for basketball and I suspect Diaco is going to get UConn back on track with football. Cincinnati has had success in both basketball and football. Both have built in rivalries with multiple ACC members. UConn would provide a stronger grip on NYC for the ACC. Cincinnati offers more Midwest access and an important Ohio recruiting ground for football for the ACC. Do ACC insiders really think Notre Dame is going to join the ACC full time in football at some point?

 

[billybud]

Adding Cincinnati offers no more recruiting advantage for the ACC in Ohio then adding Pitt will for Pennsylvania....

Take a look at the rosters of the ACC football schools...Louisville has 31 Florida boys on the roster and over half of their commits this year

As an ACC outsider, I would think the addition of UConn and Cincinnati would be a great pick up for the ACC. UConn would clearly be a fantastic add for basketball and I suspect Diaco is going to get UConn back on track with football. Cincinnati has had success in both basketball and football. Both have built in rivalries with multiple ACC members. UConn would provide a stronger grip on NYC for the ACC. Cincinnati offers more Midwest access and an important Ohio recruiting ground for football for the ACC. Do ACC insiders really think Notre Dame is going to join the ACC full time in football at some point?

Naw....It wouldn't open up the Ohio area for ACC football schools....

Ohio State takes the decent kids, and not much left.....even Cincinnati is drawing 6 kids from Florida versus 8 from Ohio....Louisville has 31 Florida kids on the roster and 8 in the current commits....

The ACC football schools will draw from the football rich grounds of Florida, Georgia, Virginia, North Carolina, and maybe cherry pick DC. FSU already cherry picks Texas, Alabama, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania for select recruits while really filling the class from the southeastern region.

I do not ever see Ohio, Pennsylvania, nor the northeast having a major recruiting impact upon ACC football.

 

[B1GALUM]

Adding Cincinnati offers no more recruiting advantage for the ACC in Ohio then adding Pitt will for Pennsylvania....

Take a look at the rosters of the ACC football schools...Louisville has 31 Florida boys on the roster and over half of their commits this year


Naw....It wouldn't open up the Ohio area for ACC football schools....

Ohio State takes the decent kids, and not much left.....even Cincinnati is drawing 6 kids from Florida versus 8 from Ohio....Louisville has 31 Florida kids on the roster and 8 in the current commits....

The ACC football schools will draw from the football rich grounds of Florida, Georgia, Virginia, North Carolina, and maybe cherry pick DC. FSU already cherry picks Texas, Alabama, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania for select recruits while really filling the class from the southeastern region.

I do not ever see Ohio, Pennsylvania, nor the northeast having a major recruiting impact upon ACC football.

Yeah ... that makes sense. On the broader question of ACC expansion ... As an ACC guy, do you think Cincinnati would be a fit for the ACC? We know they've lobbied for an invite.

 

[btstimpy]

As an ACC outsider, I would think the addition of UConn and Cincinnati would be a great pick up for the ACC. UConn would clearly be a fantastic add for basketball and I suspect Diaco is going to get UConn back on track with football. Cincinnati has had success in both basketball and football. Both have built in rivalries with multiple ACC members. UConn would provide a stronger grip on NYC for the ACC. Cincinnati offers more Midwest access and an important Ohio recruiting ground for football for the ACC. Do ACC insiders really think Notre Dame is going to join the ACC full time in football at some point?

I'm not sure Ohio kids will want to go to ACC schools. I think Ohio State will get the best of the lot, and then other Big Ten Schools from surrounding states and after than Cincinnati. The ACC would be competing with the MAC for what's left. We'll soon be able to see if Rutgers and Maryland can load up on the Ohio 4 and 5 star talent. I have my doubts. Some ACC coaches might think so, but I have my doubts. It will be part of the Cincinnati sales pitch to the ACC for sure.

UConn fits the ACC for a number of reasons. UConn could fit the Big Ten as well. I think the Big XII is a bad fit for UConn.

Notre Dame isn't going to join a conference in football unless their not winning a Conference Championship contributes to excluding Notre Dame from the playoffs. Having a 1 loss Notre Dame get left out of the playoffs because of no Conference Championship will help encourage Notre Dame to join a league more than anything. If they join a league, it will be the ACC. It would be nice to see Notre Dame football go 10-2 next season and not make the semifinals while watching 11-2 Stanford go because they won the PAC12 championship after losing to Notre Dame. That would be helpful in making independence a thing of the past.

 

[B1GALUM]

I'm not sure Ohio kids will want to go to ACC schools. I think Ohio State will get the best of the lot, and then other Big Ten Schools from surrounding states and after than Cincinnati. The ACC would be competing with the MAC for what's left. We'll soon be able to see if Rutgers and Maryland can load up on the Ohio 4 and 5 star talent. I have my doubts. Some ACC coaches might think so, but I have my doubts. It will be part of the Cincinnati sales pitch to the ACC for sure.

UConn fits the ACC for a number of reasons. UConn could fit the Big Ten as well. I think the Big XII is a bad fit for UConn.

Notre Dame isn't going to join a conference in football unless their not winning a Conference Championship contributes to excluding Notre Dame from the playoffs. Having a 1 loss Notre Dame get left out of the playoffs because of no Conference Championship will help encourage Notre Dame to join a league more than anything. If they join a league, it will be the ACC. It would be nice to see Notre Dame football go 10-2 next season and not make the semifinals while watching 11-2 Stanford go because they won the PAC12 championship after losing to Notre Dame. That would be helpful in making independence a thing of the past.

Does a Notre Dame as #15 to the ACC open the door for UConn as #16? Since the ACC would get the football brand that is Notre Dame in this scenario, is that enough to pacify the southern ACC schools and get UConn in since it very much is a great match for the ACC?

 

[btstimpy]

Yeah ... that makes sense. On the broader question of ACC expansion ... As an ACC guy, do you think Cincinnati would be a fit for the ACC? We know they've lobbied for an invite.

Cincinnati finished 173 in the Director's Cup last year. I'd like to see the ACC add schools that fit a whole lot better than that athletically regardless if they go to a bowl game occasionally. The ACC sponsors 25 sports.

UConn was 66 and Louisville was 38. Those are much better fits. Including Notre Dame the ACC had 5 in the top 20 in 2013. Pitt worries me sitting at 109. I hope Pitt steps it up in the Olympic sports. Who wants to be in a league with someone that only tries in a couple of sports?

UCF finished at 67 in the 2012-2013 Director's Cup and won the Fiesta Bowl this year. They would fit better athletically. Unfortunately, they are horrible academically. Whomever the ACC invites needs to contribute in as many areas as possible. Winning a few football games while being a drain on all the other sports is not attractive.

 

[btstimpy]

Does a Notre Dame as #15 to the ACC open the door for UConn as #16? Since the ACC would get the football brand that is Notre Dame in this scenario, is that enough to pacify the southern ACC schools and get UConn in since it very much is a great match for the ACC?

Notre Dame at #15 will open the door for another school at #16. UConn would be my choice for the invite.

 

[ZooCougar]

Adding Louisville would seem to indicate that the ACC no longer cares about academics.

That's some good history on the VT/Metro conference thing. VT hired Beamer, they scheduled cupcakes, finagled their way into the Big East and the rest is history.

As an east coast guy, I can get more into games against UNC, Wake, UVA, VT etc. geographically it's a better fit, but I still have hurt feelings report filed somewhere over getting snubbed last fall

 

[billybud]

Ohio is a Midwestern state.....folks follow Big 10 football....and if you can't make that, maybe the MAC interests you.

I am an ACC guy, but one from the deep south. I would prefer another southern team as an ACC addition...a UCF, USF.

North:

Syracuse
Boston College
VT
Notre Dame
Pitt
Louisville
Virginia
North Carolina

South

Clemson
Miami
FSU
GT
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
UCF

 

[whaler11]

I hope someone from the Director's Cup is reading this thread. It would be nice for them to know that at least one person cares.

 

[kobe]

Ohio is a Midwestern state.....folks follow Big 10 football....and if you can't make that, maybe the MAC interests you.

I am an ACC guy, but one from the deep south. I would prefer another southern team as an ACC addition...a UCF, USF.

North:

Syracuse
Boston College
VT
Notre Dame
Pitt
Louisville
Virginia
North Carolina

South

Clemson
Miami
FSU
GT
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
UCF

Any conference that expands to 16 team will not use a conventional 2 divisional 8-teams division. I think with the impending NCAA meetings later this month we will figure out how they want to regulate division alignment but a 4x4 pod system seems inevitable.

 

[btstimpy]

I hope someone from the Director's Cup is reading this thread. It would be nice for them to know that at least one person cares.

If you're from a school with a quality athletic department, you care. It doesn't look like Cincinnati cares very much based on their performance. That's a big concern.

The funny thing is that ESPN has gone out and created a faux Director's Cup called the Capital One Cup that picks and chooses some sports above the others in importance, and it separates Men's and Women's. All this is designed to do is make Conferences that only sponsor 19 sports (i.e. SEC, Big XII) feel artificially important in overall athletics. They can't keep up in the straight up comparison. They aren't involved in enough varsity sports to do so.

 

[kobe]

If you're from a school with a quality athletic department, you care. It doesn't look like Cincinnati cares very much based on their performance. That's a big concern.

The funny thing is that ESPN has gone out and created a faux Director's Cup called the Capital One Cup that picks and chooses some sports above the others in importance, and it separates Men's and Women's. All this is designed to do is make Conferences that only sponsor 19 sports (i.e. SEC, Big XII) feel artificially important in overall athletics. They can't keep up in the straight up comparison. They aren't involved in enough varsity sports to do so.

Cincinnati just reinstated full scholarship funding to all Olympic Sports this spring. I am hoping within 3-4 years the other sports will be successful to complement a good football/basketball program.

Oh and these "other" sports are important especially since there are talks that the ACC is interested in creating it's own network. A lot of the inventory will be made up women's sports, baseball, lacrosse, etc.

 

[whaler11]

If you're from a school with a quality athletic department, you care. It doesn't look like Cincinnati cares very much based on their performance. That's a big concern.

The funny thing is that ESPN has gone out and created a faux Director's Cup called the Capital One Cup that picks and chooses some sports above the others in importance, and it separates Men's and Women's. All this is designed to do is make Conferences that only sponsor 19 sports (i.e. SEC, Big XII) feel artificially important in overall athletics. They can't keep up in the straight up comparison. They aren't involved in enough varsity sports to do so.

Yes because schools that sponsor 25 sports are so much more 'important' than those that sponsor 19. Water Polo, Men's Volleyball, Women's Lacrosse - that is what separates the 'important' programs from the lowly dregs.

Maybe you believe this nonsense or maybe it's because you are a Virginia fan so you have to crank up your unwarrented faux elitism...

I know that this Alabama Oklahoma game isn't important because the SEC just doesn't value field hockey.

 

[whaler11]

Oh and these "other" sports are important especially since there are talks that the ACC is interested in creating it's own network. A lot of the inventory will be made up women's sports, baseball, lacrosse, etc.

You've lost the forest for the trees.

A: There is no way the ACC can start a network
B: Nobody watches anything on the Big 10 or Pac 12 network past football and basketball. I wasn't planning on watching college softball today, but this Northwestern/Iowa game is just too good to turn off - said by no one ever.

 

[HawkHusky]

You've lost the forest for the trees.

A: There is no way the ACC can start a network
B: Nobody watches anything on the Big 10 or Pac 12 network past football and basketball. I wasn't planning on watching college softball today, but this Northwestern/Iowa game is just too good to turn off - said by no one ever.

I think regional areas would watch other sports where they are popular:

B1G country watches B1G network hockey
The Southeast will probably watch SEC/ACC baseball on the SEC network
The Mid Atlantic/Carolina would probably watch lacrosse/soccer on an ACC network

 

[RioDog]

If you're from a school with a quality athletic department, you care. It doesn't look like Cincinnati cares very much based on their performance. That's a big concern.

The funny thing is that ESPN has gone out and created a faux Director's Cup called the Capital One Cup that picks and chooses some sports above the others in importance, and it separates Men's and Women's. All this is designed to do is make Conferences that only sponsor 19 sports (i.e. SEC, Big XII) feel artificially important in overall athletics. They can't keep up in the straight up comparison. They aren't involved in enough varsity sports to do so.

"Faux"? ESPN is pretty good at creating/defining reality in college athletics. Also, how many people really care if a school "keeps up" in intercollegiate lawn darts and bocce ball? Not trying to be a . I just think your view is naive.

 

[Waquoit]

Still like so many things if you say it enough you can convince yourself it's true even if there's no factual backing.

Bob Ryan has said as much several times. Why would he lie?

 

[B1GALUM]

I think regional areas would watch other sports where they are popular:

B1G country watches B1G network hockey
The Southeast will probably watch SEC/ACC baseball on the SEC network
The Mid Atlantic/Carolina would probably watch lacrosse/soccer on an ACC network

Agreed. Mark Silverman, the BTN president, affirmed this in his remarks at the 2013 Big Ten Conference Media Day: http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=91240
However, while these other sports provide additional content for a conference network and will have local interest, the driver for any further conference realignment will still be football with men's basketball perhaps being a sport that could factor into a decision as well.

 

[whaler11]

I think regional areas would watch other sports where they are popular:

B1G country watches B1G network hockey
The Southeast will probably watch SEC/ACC baseball on the SEC network
The Mid Atlantic/Carolina would probably watch lacrosse/soccer on an ACC network

Please. 60% of BTN advertising revenue is generated on the 14 football Saturdays. They don't even get Tier 1 football games. The other 351 days a year they generate zero interest from advertisers and that includes scores of basketball games.

All that inventory is worthless, it just fills time and nobody watches it. The BTN loses money on a good number of those games. They cost more to produce than the revenue they generate.

 

[HawkHusky]

Please. 60% of BTN advertising revenue is generated on the 14 football Saturdays. They don't even get Tier 1 football games. The other 351 days a year they generate zero interest from advertisers and that includes scores of basketball games.

All that inventory is worthless, it just fills time and nobody watches it. The BTN loses money on a good number of those games. They cost more to produce than the revenue they generate.

Please. If the region likes the programming, they watch it. Case and point: UCONN women's basketball on SNY.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/011113aac.html

 

[CAHUSKY]

Please. 60% of BTN advertising revenue is generated on the 14 football Saturdays. They don't even get Tier 1 football games. The other 351 days a year they generate zero interest from advertisers and that includes scores of basketball games. .

Zero interest ? When 40% of my advertising revenue is generated by non-football programming I'm thinking I would spend a bit more than "zero" attention to bolstering that inventory

 

[btstimpy]

"Faux"? ESPN is pretty good at creating/defining reality in college athletics. Also, how many people really care if a school "keeps up" in intercollegiate lawn darts and bocce ball? Not trying to be a . I just think your view is naive.

Hay. I say allow the National Football League and the National Basketball Association to create their own FARM leagues on their own. They both are certainly self sustaining enough. The College level does not need to be their farm system. It just doesn't. There is a 30 for 30 show about how when Ohio State flushed Maurice Clarette he had no where to go when the Ohio State Athletic Director black balled him.. There is not farm NFL team.

I'm all about intercollegiate competition. And I like lawn darts too. But having colleges hold professional athletes hostage for financial gain sucks. Kentucky is now doing it in basketball. There are many lowering their standards in football now to do it too.

That's why I love the Director's Cup. Give both Football and Men's Basketball the 100 points for a national championship. They deserve it. But if no one graduates like Kentucky basketball, they are not student athletes to be commended. They never wanted to be there in the first place. Then the rest of the athletes who actually value college can compete for something.

 

[whaler11]

Zero interest ? When 40% of my advertising revenue is generated by non-football programming I'm thinking I would spend a bit more than "zero" attention to bolstering that inventory

And how much of that 40% is men's basketball you think?

Do you guys live in some fantasy land where there is some way in the world where secondary and tertiary college sports become viable television properties.

The audiences are microscopic. Men's college basketball on national networks draws flies 90% of games. Regional conference networks showing non-revenue sports may as well broadcast a test pattern.

 

[billybud]

There may be niche audiences for non revenue sports....I've seen ESPN broadcast dressage to dog shows.

But we are talking specialty audiences of very small numbers...

 

[HawkHusky]

There may be niche audiences for non revenue sports....I've seen ESPN broadcast dressage to dog shows.

But we are talking specialty audiences of very small numbers...

Niche audiences but audiences none the less. To say there's zero interest is just misinformed and incorrect.

As a college sports fan, I will be watching Minnesota/Wisconsin/Michigan hockey games on B1G Network this year (as will a good amount of upper Midwest residents) and I would watch UVA/UNC/Duke lacrosse and soccer if an ACC Network came to fruition (as would many Virginia/Carolina residents).

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Hay. I say allow the National Football League and the National Basketball Association to create their own FARM leagues on their own. They both are certainly self sustaining enough. The College level does not need to be their farm system. It just doesn't. There is a 30 for 30 show about how when Ohio State flushed Maurice Clarette he had no where to go when the Ohio State Athletic Director black balled him.. There is not farm NFL team.

I'm all about intercollegiate competition. And I like lawn darts too. But having colleges hold professional athletes hostage for financial gain sucks. Kentucky is now doing it in basketball. There are many lowering their standards in football now to do it too.

That's why I love the Director's Cup. Give both Football and Men's Basketball the 100 points for a national championship. They deserve it. But if no one graduates like Kentucky basketball, they are not student athletes to be commended. They never wanted to be there in the first place. Then the rest of the athletes who actually value college can compete for something.

I generally agree and it is a model that has proven to be successful outside of the us; but, many college presidents will not give up the millions that big time college football, and to a lesser degree basketball, generates form them willingly, especially for the colleges that hang their hat on football only instead of other facets, such as academics.