How important are sports to universities? | Page 2 | The Boneyard

How important are sports to universities?

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ZooCougar said:
Not true. Making 90k in Manhattan isn't the same thing as making 90k in Fort Myers.
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No doubt. Amherst too isn't Ft. Meyers. Nonetheless, teaching salaries are in a very tight range. The bump to Amherst from Ft. Meyers isn't that much, not to mention 5 times less as the per student is at FGCU. In Manhattan and in places like Santa crus, faculty housing is owned by the university and rented out for that reason.
 
upstater said:
I'd never heard of it either. But let me ask this: why wasn't Huskymedic's son considering USF or Florida St. or FIU and FAU? Schools many have heard of? So, this is a hot school now. In a couple weeks (if they don't advance) that line on the grid is going to drop back to where it used to be.

Have a look at this: http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/ktli/interactive-chart#.UVBDtejnKRM

KTEL's stock.
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He's not considering FGCU but the publicity made him go look. My only point is that like the god awful looking uniforms teams wear now-a-days, tourney runs attract kids eyes and attention to schools. In recent months, the house has been buried with promo material from schools that I've never heard of (yet alone my kid) that are in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic area yet alone south of the Mason-Dixon line. The positive attention is good and they should leverage it for all it's worth and build on it. I don't think anyone is saying that this singular episode will turn them into a top 50 educational institution.

BGN2J-MCAAAVv1i.jpg:large
 
huskymedic said:
He's not considering FGCU but the publicity made him go look. My only point is that like the god awful looking uniforms teams wear now-a-days, tourney runs attract kids eyes and attention to schools. In recent months, the house has been buried with promo material from schools that I've never heard of (yet alone my kid) that are in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic area let alone south of the Mason-Dixon line. The positive attention is good and they should leverage it for all it's worth and build on it. I don't think anyone is saying that this singular episode will turn them into a top 50 educational institution.

BGN2J-MCAAAVv1i.jpg:large
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No doubt. I just said that I didn't think it would be a good deal in my first post. The question was whether this would make a huge difference or be a blip. I think: blip.
 
Interesting read...

SportsBizMiss 9:12am via Web
Butler commissioned study on 2010 & 2011 title game appearances that found combined $1.2 billion in publicity value: http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/dollars/post/_/id/460/tournament-pays-handsomely-for-schools

CSCU mention:

"Butler University experienced a whopping 41 percent increase in applications after its 2010 run to the title game. George Mason University saw a 54 percent increase in out-of-state applications following its 2006 Final Four appearance. And within a month of being defeated in the first round of the 2000 tournament, Central Connecticut State University saw application rates increase by more 12 percent."
 
huskymedic said:
Interesting read...

SportsBizMiss 9:12am via Web
Butler commissioned study on 2010 & 2011 title game appearances that found combined $1.2 billion in publicity value: http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/dollars/post/_/id/460/tournament-pays-handsomely-for-schools

CSCU mention:

"Butler University experienced a whopping 41 percent increase in applications after its 2010 run to the title game. George Mason University saw a 54 percent increase in out-of-state applications following its 2006 Final Four appearance. And within a month of being defeated in the first round of the 2000 tournament, Central Connecticut State University saw application rates increase by more 12 percent."
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41 and 54 are huge increases. Demographics don't account for it.

That being said, schools without sports saw 20%-25% increases in the same period.

Butler is obviously not the type of school I'm describing here. Butler is like a Gonzaga or Boise at this point.

$1.2 billion? Sounds like the type of hype I was regularly subjected to during my time as an advertising person.

Here's an article from 2009: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/nyregion/02suny.html

A year after this, applications jumped by 20-25% at many public schools.
 
In 1976 VMI made the NCAA's for the first time since 1964. My boss was an alum. He was ecstatic during that Sunday night selection show. I later found out that between that selection Sunday and the start on Thursday VMI collected more in alumni donations than the prior 4 years combined. One week! There is no better alumni fundraiser for a University than Athletic success. It's not even close.
 
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Athletic success CLEARLY lifts up any university, and it shouldn't even be up for debate. It MOST CERTAINLY shouldn't be up for debate between fans of the University of Connecticut, whereby an entire campus has been transformed in large part due to athletic success...
 
I think sometimes people confuse web searches and internet mentions with actual relevance. Could you have more internet activity than Snakes on a Plane? Yet nobody actually went to see it.

People looking up a school with an odd name to see where it is... why not wait until you see a real benefit before deciding it means anything.

2 years from now there is a 99% chance they are a footnote in tournament history like almost all the others.
 
Nostical said:
In 1976 VMI made the NCAA's for the first time since 1964. My boss was an alum. He was ecstatic during that Sunday night selection show. I later found out that between that selection Sunday and the start on Thursday VMI collected more in alumni donations than the prior 4 years combined. One week! There is no better alumni fundraiser for a University than Athletic success. It's not even close.
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I've cited a couple of studies that refute this. One by the economist down at U. Texas who surveyed donors across the country. But have you looked at the top schools to see if they have sports? How do you think they get their money from donors? Look at UConn's endowment, and compare it to, say, U. Rochester's. Or Emory's. Or a great many other schools.
 
UConnDan97 said:
Athletic success CLEARLY lifts up any university, and it shouldn't even be up for debate. It MOST CERTAINLY shouldn't be up for debate between fans of the University of Connecticut, whereby an entire campus has been transformed in large part due to athletic success...
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Andrew Zimbalist has a book devoted to this subject. He disagrees with you, and has numbers behind his argument. Although I suppose we may be talking about two totally different things. What do you mean by athletic success?
 
Not unexpected...

Kristi Dosh (@SportsBizMiss)
3/26/13, 5:54 PM
Updated data from FGCU re: apparel/hat sales in bookstore. Women's up 521% to $34k, men's up 686% to $115k compared to March 1-25, 2012.
 
upstater said:
Andrew Zimbalist has a book devoted to this subject. He disagrees with you, and has numbers behind his argument. Although I suppose we may be talking about two totally different things. What do you mean by athletic success?
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What I mean by athletic success is some success beyond that first "Dream Season". In other words, if FGCU has a follow-up year to this year where they do well again, you can expect much bigger things to happen for that university.

To be fair, I think it would be a real long-shot indeed for that university to match what has happened for UConn. But I don't think it is out of the question for them to enjoy the benefits that a VCU enjoys (for instance), or even a smaller success story like a Valparaiso. Valpo didn't do a whole hell of a lot (only 1 Sweet Sixteen), but there are a great many people in the country now that know what you are talking about when you say the word "Valpo", and that exposure is priceless for any college:

Valpo enrollment in 2000 - less than 3k
Valpo enrollment today - more than 4k
Valpo endowment "goal" in 2000 - 80 million
Valpo endowment today - 141 million
Valpo has constructed multiple large buildings in the 2000's, including library, student union, arts and sciences building, welcome center, and solar energy building.

Imagine if they had gone to an Elite Eight!!! ;)
 
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Hoophound said:
You said, "Where did that get Cleveland State?"

Answer: Cleveland State is not FGCU and to imply there are any parallels is wrong and poorly thought out. The endowment alone proves it let alone area demographics, location and university growth.
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There's a better comeback. Doesn't the fact that we all know about Cleveland State despite the fact that their Sweet Sixteen run was over 25 years ago shoot holes in the point he's trying to make?
 
UConnDan97 said:
What I mean by athletic success is some success beyond that first "Dream Season". In other words, if FGCU has a follow-up year to this year where they do well again, you can expect much bigger things to happen for that university.

To be fair, I think it would be a real long-shot indeed for that university to match what has happened for UConn. But I don't think it is out of the question for them to enjoy the benefits that a VCU enjoys (for instance), or even a smaller success story like a Valparaiso. Valpo didn't do a whole hell of a lot (only 1 Sweet Sixteen), but there are a great many people in the country now that know what you are talking about when you say the word "Valpo", and that exposure is priceless for any college:

Valpo enrollment in 2000 - less than 3k
Valpo enrollment today - more than 4k
Valpo endowment "goal" in 2000 - 80 million
Valpo endowment today - 141 million
Valpo has constructed multiple large buildings in the 2000's, including library, student union, arts and sciences building, welcome center, and solar energy building.

Imagine if they had gone to an Elite Eight!!! ;)
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I'm seriously not impressed by any of these stats. Anyone can increase enrollment, obviously, by letting more in. Most schools actually do the opposite. They curtail enrollment, which increases their rep. The endowment is also relatively small. I mean, look at Quinnipiac--it was able to accomplish all that and hardly anyone knows what it is.

VCU, by the way, is an undersupported school. I'm not looking for FGCU to get to the level of UConn, but rather USF. USF has a big lead on them. Forget about Florida St.

The general point though is that for the vast majority, not much changes. In fact, Zimbalist cracked that as some of these schools cut programs, lose academic ranking, they also lose tons to athletics, while losing on the field as well, then they start losing students who don't want to go to the "loser's school."

There are exceptions to every rule, and we can discuss them forever, I suppose. Gonzaga, Boise, BC... just to name a few. But at the very top of the rankings (i.e. top 50) sports really don't matter. After that, there are a bunch of state schools. You'll have to tell me how one compares U. Cal. San Diego to Oregon or Arizona. UCSD is higher ranked than many other public schools--without sports.
 
Waquoit said:
There's a better comeback. Doesn't the fact that we all know about Cleveland State despite the fact that their Sweet Sixteen run was over 25 years ago shoot holes in the point he's trying to make?
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Uh, no. I'm a college basketball fan. You're telling me Americans and more importantly, American high school students, are aware of Cleveland State? Of course not, don't be silly!
 
upstater said:
Uh, no. I'm a college basketball fan. You're telling me Americans and more importantly, American high school students, are aware of Cleveland State? Of course not, don't be silly!
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I think this is a case where everyone is right. It's upstater right that on whole many universities don't squeeze as much value out of athletics as they would like to? Probably. Is it true that in the case of most high end schools that there are other primary drivers of donations? Yes

Is it also true that a uconn message board is the one undeniably terrible place for him to make that argument? He'll yes. Basketball elevated this University. There can be no argument for that. We should embrace that we are the model and look to continue that success.

sent from my Galaxy Note 2 using tapatalk
 
upstater said:
Uh, no. I'm a college basketball fan. You're telling me Americans and more importantly, American high school students, are aware of Cleveland State? Of course not, don't be silly!
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I'm American. And of course those students don't have parents. Awareness comes in many forms.
 
upstater said:
Andrew Zimbalist has a book devoted to this subject. He disagrees with you, and has numbers behind his argument.
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A whole book! With numbers? No way! The guy created a nice niche for himself. A sports hater from Smith College has become the go-to guy for sports haters. The Connecticut experience belies his "numbers". Look what's happened at UConn since the BB teams hit big. Look what's happened to Hartford since the Whalers left.
 
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Waquoit said:
A whole book! With numbers? No way! The guy created a nice niche for himself. A sports hater from Smith College has become the go-to guy for sports haters. The Connecticut experience belies his "numbers". Look what's happened at UConn since the BB teams hit big. Look what's happened to Hartford since the Whalers left.
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You live in fantasyland.
 
I've never gotten the impression Zimbalist hates sports. I haven't read his work on this topic, but his research into stadium funding helps expose what a joke that is.
 
upstater said:
I'm seriously not impressed by any of these stats. Anyone can increase enrollment, obviously, by letting more in. Most schools actually do the opposite. They curtail enrollment, which increases their rep. The endowment is also relatively small. I mean, look at Quinnipiac--it was able to accomplish all that and hardly anyone knows what it is.

VCU, by the way, is an undersupported school. I'm not looking for FGCU to get to the level of UConn, but rather USF. USF has a big lead on them. Forget about Florida St.

The general point though is that for the vast majority, not much changes. In fact, Zimbalist cracked that as some of these schools cut programs, lose academic ranking, they also lose tons to athletics, while losing on the field as well, then they start losing students who don't want to go to the "loser's school."

There are exceptions to every rule, and we can discuss them forever, I suppose. Gonzaga, Boise, BC... just to name a few. But at the very top of the rankings (i.e. top 50) sports really don't matter. After that, there are a bunch of state schools. You'll have to tell me how one compares U. Cal. San Diego to Oregon or Arizona. UCSD is higher ranked than many other public schools--without sports.
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Alright, so we are definitely talking about two different things. I am talking about how athletic success can help lead to monetary success and overall better health of an institution. You're asking if it will transform a school into a "top 50" academic institution. Well, it may take a couple of Sweet Sixteens to get that accomplished... ;)
 
UConnDan97 said:
What I mean by athletic success is some success beyond that first "Dream Season". In other words, if FGCU has a follow-up year to this year where they do well again, you can expect much bigger things to happen for that university.

To be fair, I think it would be a real long-shot indeed for that university to match what has happened for UConn. But I don't think it is out of the question for them to enjoy the benefits that a VCU enjoys (for instance), or even a smaller success story like a Valparaiso. Valpo didn't do a whole hell of a lot (only 1 Sweet Sixteen), but there are a great many people in the country now that know what you are talking about when you say the word "Valpo", and that exposure is priceless for any college:

Valpo enrollment in 2000 - less than 3k
Valpo enrollment today - more than 4k
Valpo endowment "goal" in 2000 - 80 million
Valpo endowment today - 141 million
Valpo has constructed multiple large buildings in the 2000's, including library, student union, arts and sciences building, welcome center, and solar energy building.

Imagine if they had gone to an Elite Eight!!! ;)
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There's a difference between comparing FGCU to UConn '90 that is not being mentioned.

FGCU plays in the Atlantic Sun Conference, which is a minor conference (it's not even mid-major). As such Andy Enfield is sure to be courted by other schools in more prominent conferences. What's the difference between him and Calhoun in 1986-1990? Gtown happened (just finished a run of three Final 4s in four years; one NC), Villanova happened (NC in '85) and. The 1987 Final 4 happened. Bottom line, is that UConn was in a growing power basketball conference. Calhoun was certainly courted but why for another team in a power conference who are down on their luck, when you have the oppertunity to lead the team you've built and are in a equal or better position? The only reason is to go pro and how did that treat Mike Montgomery, Tim Floyd, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, or Jerry Tarkanian?

What's the point? As Andy Enfield goes, so goes the popularity of Florida Gulf Coast University and by extension, their exposure.
 
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Husky25 said:
The only reason is to go pro and how did that treat Mike Montgomery, Tim Floyd, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, or Jerry Tarkanian?.
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A: It treated them all fanta$$$$tically.
 
zls44 said:
A: It treated them all fanta$ $tically.
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Yes they got dollars. But these guys are all equally about ego too. They could do one thing in college that they could not do in the pros...Win. Ergo they all returned.

My point is Andy Enfield is not long for Fort Myers, potentially as soon as the sun sets next Monday.
 
UConnDan97 said:
Alright, so we are definitely talking about two different things. I am talking about how athletic success can help lead to monetary success and overall better health of an institution. You're asking if it will transform a school into a "top 50" academic institution. Well, it may take a couple of Sweet Sixteens to get that accomplished... ;)
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No, I am addressing the marketing aspect only. I'm of the firm conviction that athletic success ALWAYS leads to monetary loss and less health. I also am not referring to top 50 academic transformations. I was comparing two similar schools, say Oregon or Arizona and UCSD, and wondering why schools that are very alike were not hurt or helped.
 
Husky25 said:
Yes they got dollars. But these guys are all equally about ego too. They could do one thing in college that they could not do in the pros...Win. Ergo they all returned.

My point is Andy Enfield is not long for Fort Myers, potentially as soon as the sun sets next Monday.
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Pitino did very well with the Knicks, FWIW.
 
He did, but he was fustrated with the way the Pros worked. He didn't have total control. As I said...Ego.

That is why he was also named GM for the the Boston Wildcats.
 
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