How hard is it to teach a good Big to develop a post move?

[ctchamps]

I've been around replying on some posts, but rarely starting new ones. Went through a divorce and the past few month getting my house ready for sale. Finishing up the last few project this weekend and hope to get it on the market this coming week.

I figured I'd drop a post like this since it is something I've wondered about for some time. Funny how you see lots of wing and guards come and go and show a lot of skill, some that translate to the NBA. But when it comes to Bigs, few come in with a post game and few leave with such.

I've come to the conclusion it's probably the toughest set of skills to learn in all of basketball. And with the NBA becoming more and more a perimeter skills league (meaning 3 pt shooting, driving to the basket and finishing at the rim or midrange) and less and less a big man's game, other than getting rim protectors who can step out and shoot the 3 or at least knock down Js with regularity, the post up game is becoming a thing of the past.

What I find interesting is UConn tends to still want our bigs close to the basket, but it's usually to offensive rebound, catch the ally-oop, and wishfully catch and score close to the basket. You just don't see too many of our bigs, other than some converted stretch-4s like Scoe and Daniels, stepping out and taking 3s. Shonn Miller actually had a pretty good jumpshoot and even hit a few 3s, but our offense had him predominantly close to the basket.

I believe a big who has a some moves and can execute them quickly can still dominate in the college game. You just don't see it that often. I guess one thing I'd like to see at UConn is KO recruiting more physically strong bigs, like Enoch. We played teams that had some success overpowering our bigs inside. If they let them catch it deep, our bigs struggled to stop them w/out fouling. I'd like to see us do that to our opponents. It will be interesting to see if KO can recruit some physical bigs that know how to finish, post moves or not.

I read another post where you indicates your situation. Sorry you had to go through this. Prior to that post I wasn't sure if you lost interest in the team. You may have posted but none of the posts were Dogmania in length.

 

[CTBasketball]

I don't mean to be a wiseguy, but are you being serious about Enosch Wolf? As for the others, like I replied to another similar post, I wouldn't consider any of those players have a back-to-the-basket mature post up game. Though Gavin surprised me and had a clever move or two that helped him score inside even though he was not much of an overpowering presence.

I'd like to provide some examples of college players that did, but I'm hard pressed to name any. Jared Sullinger is one that had some advanced post skills in college. It helped that his Dad was a HS coach. As for a pro I always point to Kevin McKale who would fake players out of their jocks on a regular basis. I could rattle off a string of NBA bigs over the past 20 years, but those bigs seem to become more rare each year. Seems all the bigs want to be stretch 4s and 5s. Granted the game is evolving, but IMO, having a big who can catch the ball in the post with his back to the basket and score when called upon will help you win more games than you might without such a player. Not all games, your perimeter guys are on, and it's nice to get some high percentage hoops, but just as important the threat of scoring inside helps get the other teams bigs in foul trouble, especially the rim-projectors you want to get out of the game.

It was a little brash yes, but I'll try to make the case.

• Drummond (2011-2012) had no post moves when he got here. I think he demonstrated them once vs. Syracuse in the Big East Tournament and everyone lost their mind. He was athletic and this led to him getting a lot of alley-oops, dunks, etc.
• Oriakhi (2009-2012) seemed like he took a step backwards after his sophomore year. He was always incredibly raw. I explained his game in the previous post.
• Olander (2010-2014) did not do much. He showed some game vs. Notre Dame one yaer but other than that he was mediocre.
• Roscoe (2010-2011) was like a comet. A very capable rebounder and athletic wing. His post moves, like every one of our players, depended on the guards creating space and drawing 2 defenders.
• DeAndre (2011-2014) outside of the 6 games in 2011, his post moves left a lot to be desired. Our run in 2011 depended on his post game. It was phenomenal in that tournament.
• Nolan (2011-2015) never really put it together. Can't say anything bad about the kid.
• Facey (2011-2016) might have a breakout senior year. He has the talent in my opinion, but his low post moves aren't that great.
• Amidah (2011-2016) not even going to start that conversation.
• Lubin (2014-2015) was not a UConn-caliber recruit. It showed.
• Wolf (2010-2013). I'll only look at his last year here, he didn't get much run in the other two. But here me out, he did utilize a drop step, ball fakes, and hook shots. Granted they were slow, but they were effective due to his size. Him and DeAndre are the only two UConn post players to hold the ball away from the defender in the triple threat stance. This isn't really a low-post specific move, but he set and rolled off screens better than anyone we've had in recent memory. He had great hands and this let him finish at the rim with either hand. He had a solid 10 foot jumper that he used sometimes and could drop step and spin pretty well. Now the sample size is very small here, but I think a lot of people on here liked what we saw from him. He was fairly advanced for the amount of play he got.

 

[enochlover12]

this post is not necessary bc we already have a big named steve enoch who has excellent post moves. a real husky fan would now that

 

[intlzncster]

Amida's one of the best rim-runners in the nation, and an 80% foul shooter. I think you're being a little bit unfair.

Also: Rim-running is a much more viable/valuable NBA skill than it is in college, simply because the spacing and passing is better.

Amida also started setting really good picks by about the middle of last year. He had no idea how to screen when he first got to Storrs.

That's fair enough. I was arguing about low block offensive feel. Probably shouldn't have added that shot blocking bit. When he sets up on the low block, and manages to catch the ball, I generally expect nothing at all. And he doesn't have much, again, 'feel' for offensive rebounding to boot.

I would argue that the pick and alley-oop aren't exactly the most difficult skills to master for someone as athletic as he is. And he still moves too much on his picks. jmo of course.

 

[intlzncster]

I would say Emeka, by far, had the best low-post game. Shonn was good, but not great. His game depended on getting the defender in the air and making an awkward, but open shot.

Better than Donyell? Dunno about that. Dude was a FORCE.

 

[BUConn10]

this post is not necessary bc we already have a big named steve enoch who has excellent post moves. a real husky fan would now that

This guy may be Chief.

 

[Ukonnfan]

We may be surprised by Enoch this coming fall. Of course, then again maybe not. He has the potential. There's just a couple of bad habits he needs to break. I did like that short jumper he had been developing, and he did show some sort of reckless agressiveness in short spurts.
If he works his butt off, I mean really hard every day, we will like him in the game. Most depends on his maturity level though. Then threads like this will be mute maybe.

 

[filthy beast]

The value of a low post offensive talent is obvious. Many good points made here. I for one, put a higher priority on an effective rebounder. I don't care what position he plays, I don't care if he's 5'11" or 6'11". UConn (or any B Ball power) needs strong rebounding. We haven't had it in years. UConn's offense can come from anywhere. The post doesn't need to dominate, only contribute.

 

[Chief00]

I take no joy in being right about this. I do think George taugh the Bigs some post moves including how to present oneself for the pass after getting position and sealing. He also incorporated them into the offense without forcing the issue and being predictable.
As stated previously, I like Coach Miller as a Basketball coach, is he the right fit for Bigs Coach? I will let the player improvement evidence answer that question.
Quite frankly, I also believe that brute strength is part of the game in the paint. Guys such as Emeka, Hilton and even Jeff (yes he got even stronger while in the program) got much bigger and stronger while at UConn and you could see that advantage applied in the game. I just don't see evidence of that in the last few years. It's great to sit down and discuss PhD level theories on Strength and Conditioning - but getting stronger ultimately is fairly simple and apparent and it ain't been happening. Yes, gymnasts need flexibility and a wirey type strength that Coach Travis loves to teach and opine about but if your core body strength is so weak that you can't even hold position nothing else matters. You need that raw power in the post you don't need to be a Rhodes Scholar or need to be able to run a Marathon.
I see lots of upside with Enoch. From what I have observed he is a hard worker too - if he doesn't develop into being a very good player things really need to be re-examined.

 

[nomar]

Chief's Law: As any Boneyard thread grows in length, the chances of Chief appearing and mentioning Coach Miller, Bunkey, First Night and/or gymnastics approaches 100%.

 

[mauconnfan]

I don't think you can equate working harder to get bigger with all of our bigs. There's no doubt in my mind AB has worked his butt off to get stronger, he has a totally different body than he had as a freshman because he worked to do so. Having said that his frame obviously isn't made to be huge or thick ever and his legs are the same, skinny. S & C coach can't do much about that and Miller can't be his brain too. Give him his due for taking his body where he has thus far, now he needs to somehow do the same with his game. Kentan is so similar too although his frame is a bit thicker so maybe he's not working as hard as AB?

 

[Chief00]

I don't think you can equate working harder to get bigger with all of our bigs. There's no doubt in my mind AB has worked his butt off to get stronger, he has a totally different body than he had as a freshman because he worked to do so. Having said that his frame obviously isn't made to be huge or thick ever and his legs are the same, skinny. S & C coach can't do much about that and Miller can't be his brain too. Give him his due for taking his body where he has thus far, now he needs to somehow do the same with his game. Kentan is so similar too although his frame is a bit thicker so maybe he's not working as hard as AB?

Mauconnfan - you set the bar so low for these dudes - they need to be challenged - I understand about body types - but come on you should not be pushed around like a feather after 3 years in the program against most players. Occasionally, you go against a man child and you get tossed around but against most guys you should hold your own. and yes there are a lot of S &C coaches that can make that happen.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Yes, gymnasts need flexibility and a wirey type strength

The gymnastics thing is not relevant, it's another psychotic point you harp on, but is "wiry" really the word that comes to mind when you think of gymnasts? Because if so you either don't know what gymnastics is or you don't know what the word "wiry" means.

 

[tcf15]

Chief's Law: As any Boneyard thread grows in length, the chances of Chief appearing and mentioning Coach Miller, Bunkey, First Night and/or gymnastics approaches 100%.

 

[mauconnfan]

Mauconnfan - you set the bar so low for these dudes - they need to be challenged - I understand about body types - but come on you should not be pushed around like a feather after 3 years in the program against most players. Occasionally, you go against a man child and you get tossed around but against most guys you should hold your own. and yes there are a lot of S &C coaches that can make that happen.

AB is big enough now to hold his own minus the strength coach. Problem is he's not smart enough. No bar set here Chief, just reality.

 

[Chief00]

AB is big enough now to hold his own minus the strength coach. Problem is he's not smart enough. No bar set here Chief, just reality.

Quite frankly, I will grant you the BB IQ point, but I have seen Amida numerous times last season have position but then just get moved out of the way.

What the Big Ern poster misses if you have played basketball in the paint you need the core body and lower body strength. We use to have a term - that dude was a load - someone that you can't move and can move you. The gymnast type strength training doesn't address that issue in all due respect.

One suggestion is to use blocking sleds but focus on free weights, push ups and sit ups.

 

[mauconnfan]

Quite frankly, I will grant you the BB IQ point, but I have seen Amida numerous times last season have position but then just get moved out of the way.

What the Big Ern poster misses if you have played basketball in the paint you need the core body and lower body strength. We use to have a term - that dude was a load - someone that you can't move and can move you. The gymnast type strength training doesn't address that issue in all due respect.

One suggestion is to use blocking sleds but focus on free weights, push ups and sit ups.

Yeah there's no doubt he can get shoved out of the way but he also #1 isn't always reading for the shot so his base isn't stable and strong and #2 his base is too narrow he doesn't have his feet spread enough to strengthen his base to keep his ground. Let's be honest here technique and hitting first are big keys to boxing out, it's not all strength, although it helps close the deal. If you can see this guys getting ready to shoot, or if its at the end of a shot clock for instance and you jam your butt into the guy behind you and move him off his area you have a better chance to win in your space. He doesn't have technique and (IQ) he's not reading shots. What's crazy if Facey does a great job of that on the offensive end but he's the same as AB on the defensive end.

Both guys could use more size but both have capable bodies to get the job done at this point it's beating their opponents to the spot both in body and mind more than anything.