Here’s a bombshell

[ScottVib]

Here's Crouthamel's history from the 2000s:
A BIG EAST History & Retrospective (Part 1) - Part 1
BIG EAST History & Retrospective (Part 2) - Part 2 (link in the article is broken)


If you believe his recollection (even then 20 years old) Penn State state was not invited until later. Rutgers was & declined because it wanted to stick with Penn State, which led to Seton Hall getting an invite. Villanova was invited at the start, but delayed entry for a year.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Everyone assuming this is the big one that ends it all. I think that is premature. The ACC will be around for awhile. It may need to expand. The remnants of the Big 12 and PAC need to figure out how to best combine and create the best media package. Those left out of that, will likely connect with the MWC (I can see Oregon State and Washington State being left out, maybe BYU too....plus the schools just added are in a tough spot).

Will they be financially disadvantaged? Yes. But the reality is that cable TV itself is doomed, and so these giant media deals won't last much longer. The USC and UCLA move tracks with national recognition being more important than local markets in a post cable, streaming world. The ACC has great, growing local markets, much better than the B1G or most of the SEC. When "the big one" comes, the stragglers in the SEC and B1G will be cast aside too, and the stronger programs in the other conferences will get an in. We haven't seen that yet. When Northwestern, Rutgers, Vandy and Mississippi State get the boot, then I'll believe the split is coming.

 

[uconnfan68]

In what world does Mississippi warrant 2 seats at the big table?

 

[methodology]

In what world does Mississippi warrant 2 seats at the big table?

Grandfather clause they were already there

 

[uconnfan68]

Grandfather clause they were already there

After the shakeouts?

 

[ToolzieFan]

In what world does Mississippi warrant 2 seats at the big table?

For a minute I thought I was in the Cesspool reading about the U.S. Senate.

 

[traitor71]

I'm sure a lot of people remember the old Strat O Matic baseball game. Well, for a while, they had a college football game as well. When I was a kid I used to love to take the best teams, put them into a "super league" and play it out. It seemed like a pretty good idea back then, now it just seems like it sort of sucks. Yes, there are going to be big matchups, and I expect all the brands that we have grown up watching to have playoff access, but it just isn't going to be as fun as it ever was.

 

[huskymedic]

 

[ThabeetDown]

Everyone assuming this is the big one that ends it all. I think that is premature. The ACC will be around for awhile. It may need to expand. The remnants of the Big 12 and PAC need to figure out how to best combine and create the best media package. Those left out of that, will likely connect with the MWC (I can see Oregon State and Washington State being left out, maybe BYU too....plus the schools just added are in a tough spot).

Will they be financially disadvantaged? Yes. But the reality is that cable TV itself is doomed, and so these giant media deals won't last much longer. The USC and UCLA move tracks with national recognition being more important than local markets in a post cable, streaming world. The ACC has great, growing local markets, much better than the B1G or most of the SEC. When "the big one" comes, the stragglers in the SEC and B1G will be cast aside too, and the stronger programs in the other conferences will get an in. We haven't seen that yet. When Northwestern, Rutgers, Vandy and Mississippi State get the boot, then I'll believe the split is coming.

Some ACC schools (Clemson, FSU, maybe Miami) are going to do everything in their power (aka lawsuits) to get out of their current ACC GOR. The future of that conference will be decided in a courtroom.

Who knows how many years that could take -- I think they'll be able to get out of it within the next 5 years. Notre Dame is their trump card -- but I don't think Notre Dame will never be a full member in the ACC as is. Obviously B10 would like them, and perhaps ND losing their HC to a SEC team will be the straw that breaks the Indy-ND camel's back. They're legally obligated to play 5 ACC teams a year until that 2036 -- hence why they are essentially stuck in the ACC. If ND finds a way to get out of that and into the B10, then the ACC is absolutely doomed. That will be the domino that seals their fate, since a resolution with ND would probably come a lot sooner than the true ACC schools.

With that said, the ACC absolutely needs to be proactive. Outside of snagging WVU (or getting ND in full-time), what school really moves the needle for them to be able to compete? Seems like B12 is poised to get the P12 scraps, so what can the ACC do? Collect some AAC scraps? UConn? That won't help them in this arms race. They are doomed -- it's just a matter of how long until it's over for them, depending on how good their lawyers are...

 

[methodology]

After the shakeouts?

You underestimate southern politics and allegiance. They aren’t going anywhere. SEC is the all powerful and they were in it at the start (both were part of the 10 founding members)

 

[ThabeetDown]

You underestimate southern politics and allegiance. They aren’t going anywhere. SEC is the all powerful and they were in it at the start (both were part of the 10 founding members)

Not to mention that other than maybe Vandy these schools pump in a lot of dollars into everything SEC, and not just football. Look at how much Ole Miss fans spend on Jell-O Shots in Omaha alone...

 

[bendm]

Big 12 Expansion: League To Meet With Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, Colorado

A meeting is scheduled between members of the Pac-12 and Big 12 on Tuesday.

www.si.com

 

[Chin Diesel]

The ACC has great, growing local markets, much better than the B1G or most of the SEC.

The B1G has NYC, LA, Chicago, Wash DC. That is 4 of the top 6 markets in the US.

SEC has Atlanta and Houston and will soon add pretty much all of Texas with Longhorns.

ACC has Charlotte and Miami? We know BCU brings nothing in the Boston market.

You can argue the ACC second level markets are better than the SEC second tier markets and you won't get much of a fight from me on it. Difference is SEC owns those markets way more than ACC teams own theirs.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The B1G has NYC, LA, Chicago, Wash DC. That is 4 of the top 6 markets in the US.

SEC has Atlanta and Houston and will soon add pretty much all of Texas with Longhorns.

ACC has Charlotte and Miami? We know BCU brings nothing in the Boston market.

You can argue the ACC second level markets are better than the SEC second tier markets and you won't get much of a fight from me on it. Difference is SEC owns those markets way more than ACC teams own theirs.

Markets don't matter much. The B1G doesn't "have" NYC, because of Rutgers, if anything it's in good shape because Michigan and Ohio State are popular there. Nobody anywhere cares about Rutgers. It certainly will have eyeballs in LA, and dominates in Chicago. DC? Maryland doesn't move the needle in football anywhere. Most of DC is transient people from everywhere.

ACC has some popular programs and its regions are growing rapidly. Nobody "has" Boston for the same reason nobody has NYC or DC. No one or even two teams capture most of the eyeballs. The B1G coverage of Chicago is strong because it has loads of alumni from all the B1G schools. But it honestly doesn't matter. What matters is whether somebody that is not a fan wants to watch a team play. Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Clemson, Alabama, LSA, Texas, USC, Georgia...those all matter.

 

[Hurleyman216]

The BIG could add 1 more team and definitely capture the NY market (and I’m not referring to upstate NY)

 

[uconndogs]

Pure speculation on my part, but I don't think the SEC and BiG are all that worried about FSU, Clemson, etc. They are in those markets and why deal with the friction of bringing those programs in at this point. They have the LA market and I have to believe ND sees the writing on the wall at this point, so they'll be joining.

Once they get the programs that get them the markets they want, so probably 20-22 programs per conference, I think they breakoff from the rest of college football and cut deals based on the premise that they are, without question, premier college football. If you want a national champion then it's from this group. A big playoff format. The money may dwarf what's currently on the table.

......and I think asking what happens to the Miss States and Vandys of the world is a very good question. My guess is that there will be a significant arms race to compete in that world and those guys, over time, may just not be able to make that lift. Again, this is unfettered professional athletics. Dollars will rule.

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

At this point is there any sort of interest in moving to the ACC for us? I mean it is where former BE basketball programs go to die. At the same time, it could make a lot of sense to us, especially after the inevitable exits from Clemson, Miami and FSU, it’d start to look somewhat similar to an old Big East with Duke and UNC replacing a few others. Of course I’d demand a removal of BC though!

Not sure how interested the ACC would be given the current state of our football program. But if there’s one thing for sure, they’d replace BC for us if they could.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Markets don't matter much. The B1G doesn't "have" NYC, because of Rutgers, if anything it's in good shape because Michigan and Ohio State are popular there. Nobody anywhere cares about Rutgers. It certainly will have eyeballs in LA, and dominates in Chicago. DC? Maryland doesn't move the needle in football anywhere. Most of DC is transient people from everywhere.

ACC has some popular programs and its regions are growing rapidly. Nobody "has" Boston for the same reason nobody has NYC or DC. No one or even two teams capture most of the eyeballs. The B1G coverage of Chicago is strong because it has loads of alumni from all the B1G schools. But it honestly doesn't matter. What matters is whether somebody that is not a fan wants to watch a team play. Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Clemson, Alabama, LSA, Texas, USC, Georgia...those all matter.

Weird. Never once did I mention RU. I said the B1G has the NYC market and your confirmed it. Same for the Turtle and DC. Never said the B1G owns DC because of Maryland. I said the B1G has a large market impact there. It does.

 

[FlippinCrazy!]

Markets don't matter much. The B1G doesn't "have" NYC, because of Rutgers, if anything it's in good shape because Michigan and Ohio State are popular there. Nobody anywhere cares about Rutgers. It certainly will have eyeballs in LA, and dominates in Chicago. DC? Maryland doesn't move the needle in football anywhere. Most of DC is transient people from everywhere.

ACC has some popular programs and its regions are growing rapidly. Nobody "has" Boston for the same reason nobody has NYC or DC. No one or even two teams capture most of the eyeballs. The B1G coverage of Chicago is strong because it has loads of alumni from all the B1G schools. But it honestly doesn't matter. What matters is whether somebody that is not a fan wants to watch a team play. Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Clemson, Alabama, LSA, Texas, USC, Georgia...those all matter.

Agreed, big markets really shouldn’t be a big factor for realignment. I live in Boston, and can vouch that no one cares for BC, BU or UMass at all. Hell there’s probably more UConn fans here than any Massachusetts based teams. They only care about pro sports here and honestly I would be the same way if I didn’t go to UConn.

I imagine NY is the same way, especially with it being a large hub of people from all the US.

 

[upstater]

It's amazing that you can't understand the history.

Paterno wanted to create a northeastern conference even before the BE started discussions in 78. They negotiated with Penn State and Rutgers, but Paterno made demands that were pissed people off. Only after that was Seton Hall invited.

4 years later PSU came back, and they brought Rutgers, Maryland and West Virginia with tehm.

There appears to be some confusion about the vote since Paterno has said Pitt and Syracuse voted against him, Crouthamel has also let it out that Syracuse voted against them, but Tranghese countered that and said Syracuse voted for them

 

[upstater]

Here is an excerpt from Dana O’Neil’s book, the Big East, which I really enjoyed. Gavitt wanted Penn State to join, but St. John’s, Georgetown, and Villanova all voted against adding them.

O'Neil quotes Tranghese, but Crouthamel and Paterno said otherwise. It appears to contradict several of the recollections. Remember, UConn was key in trying to get Penn State in at the time, and they supposedly helped to corral the Catholic holdouts.

 

[upstater]

There's actually a lot of stuff that went on between the years 1978 and 1982. Paterno is definitely on record as saying Crouthamel and Flynn opposed PSU prior to 1982. Crouthamel seems to agree with Paterno's version when he mentions Syracuse voting against. It's hard to say if he's referring to an official vote in 1982, or a soft vote taken in 1981.

Before Pitt was invited.

You have to remember that John Toner and Dave Gavitt successfully got a number of schools to go along with adding PSU, and they had long meetings with Paterno about it back in 1980. UConn was a key to all this because it was a non-football school pushing for football members in the Big East.

Paterno seems to think that BC and Syracuse scuttled it in 1980 / 1981. Crouthamel references a vote Syracuse took against, but I don't know if he's referring to 1980 / 1981 or 1982.

 

[McLovin]

Agreed, big markets really shouldn’t be a big factor for realignment. I live in Boston, and can vouch that no one cares for BC, BU or UMass at all. Hell there’s probably more UConn fans here than any Massachusetts based teams. They only care about pro sports here and honestly I would be the same way if I didn’t go to UConn.

I imagine NY is the same way, especially with it being a large hub of people from all the US.

Right - it's all about fan bases. With such a big Irish population in Boston, I wouldn't be surprised if Notre Dame (1,000 miles away) was the most followed college team in the market.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Agreed, big markets really shouldn’t be a big factor for realignment. I live in Boston, and can vouch that no one cares for BC, BU or UMass at all. Hell there’s probably more UConn fans here than any Massachusetts based teams. They only care about pro sports here and honestly I would be the same way if I didn’t go to UConn.

I imagine NY is the same way, especially with it being a large hub of people from all the US.

You finally figured it out in the last sentence. It's not "market" in terms of just local team support, TV's and news: it's market in terms of a large group of people who have interest in the product.

The B1G has a presence in NYC and Wash DC not because of Rutgers or Maryland but because there are a ton of B1G alumni in those areas interested in B1G sports. NYC, Chicago, soon to be LA, Wash DC all have strong B1G presence.

Texas is about to become the biggest anchor for the SEC. They will be the top story in the Houston, DFW, Austin, and San Antonio markets. The Big12 can claim Lubbock and be secondary market in Houston and DFW. Right now SEC best big market or population area is Atlanta.

Pac12 is losing LA market. If everything stands pat, San Francisco, San Jose and Seattle are biggest population areas of interest but I don't know how much those cities are in to being college towns and spending hours of weekend time watching college sports.