Griner Play

[Blue Huskie]

I just want to point out that Dolsen and Griner exchanged a hug in the handshake line.

There is no question in my mind that Dolsen was one of the toughest challenges she faced, and, sans takedowns, probably gave as good as she got. Griner unfortunately is going to throw folks down if she exerts herself, so if she isn't playing under control, play becomes dangerous. I'm not as stirred up by the 2nd "non-foul", but thought the 1st was simply one of the stupidest things I ever saw a player do. Just grab an arm and yank down with no ball in sight? Automatic.

Quite frankly I didn't think of it as an exchange. Griner initiated the hug and Stef went along with it because she is that kind of person. I really don't think Stef was too interested in hugging her. Griner does a nice job of trying to appear sweet after the fact. Then in the interview she mentions playing more aggressive. Apparently more aggressive to her means anything goes and dirty. IMO the 2nd takedown was just as flagrant and dirty as the first. Watch the follow through. Every intent to slam to the floor.

 

[CL82]

I think you're showing your bias and maybe I'm showing mine but there was a lot of grabbing and physical play under the basket last night. It wasn't like Dolson was an innocent bystander in the first incident. Griner was grabbed, pushed and hacked plenty last night but she's just so strong and athletic. Dolson, on the other hand, hit the floor several times. I believe there was a timeout for the second "incident" because it was the under 8:00 timeout.

Well that's true she was running ahead of Griner, when Griner grabbed her arm and threw here down. How dare she? Oh her head hitting the floor was pretty violent, so I guess I see your point.

 

[Icebear]

Well that's true she was running ahead of Griner, when Griner grabbed her arm and threw here down. How dare she? Oh her head hitting the floor was pretty violent, so I guess I see your point.

Her arm was, also, hurt as she came up holding it. The coverage mentioned that point. Presumably if it had resulted in a dislocated shoulder Griner would have been ejected. Since fouls should not be called by outcome it could well have been called a Flagrant 2. If it was it would have been Griner's own fault because it was a clear premeditated action of reaching out and grabbing the arm and pulling Stef down.

 

[OneTrickPony]

THERE is an honest answer. The way I saw it on the replay it could have been called an off-ball foul on Dolson. She used her left arm to hold Griner away from the basket. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been right to make that call at that time in the game. The refs should allow them to tussle some. I think too many people, including Doris Burke, were and are making way too much of this. Dolson held, Griner pushed back, Dolson lost her balance. Simple as that. It was no throw down.

That is patently ridiculous...whatever went before the scene that's been played over and over...it was a throw-down, plain and simple...and coming on the heels of a Flagrant 1, it brings Ms. Griner's judgement into question...if she repeats it, she just may cost Baylor a second national championship...

 

[CL82]

Yes that was it, because I just saw it on the ESPN game highlights. Baylor hits a 3 at 12:13.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?categoryId=2459792&id=8961326

Boy I'd love to to have screen shots at one second intervals from 1:29 to 1:34 of that clip. Pretty obvious what Griner did and the ref is clearly signaling a foul.

 

[Bestiarius]

I just want to point out that Dolsen and Griner exchanged a hug in the handshake line.

There is no question in my mind that Dolsen was one of the toughest challenges she faced, and, sans takedowns, probably gave as good as she got. Griner unfortunately is going to throw folks down if she exerts herself, so if she isn't playing under control, play becomes dangerous. I'm not as stirred up by the 2nd "non-foul", but thought the 1st was simply one of the stupidest things I ever saw a player do. Just grab an arm and yank down with no ball in sight? Automatic.

The way I saw it, before the first foul, UConn was clicking and seemed to have some momentum going. Griner appeared to be frustrated, and the flagrant foul was a result. It appeared an intentional grabbing of Dolson's arm to prevent her from getting down court. The refs got it right.

The second incident also appeared to be intentional. Dolson had Griner boxed out with her arms outstretched to the sides in anticipation of a rebound. Brittney brought her right arm over Dolson's shoulder and pressed it into her chest while simultaneously bringing her left arm down pinning Dolson's left arm against Griner's body. Griner then brought both arms down, slamming Dolson backward to the floor. There was no doubt in my mind that it was a Flagrant Foul. However, the lead ref (normally on the baseline), didn't seem to be on the baseline to observe the play. The Center ref, (who called no foul) when Stef was on the floor, was not in position to see the play, being behind Griner. The Trail ref probably couldn't see it either, several players being in the way. It should have been reviewed for a flagrant.

I believe both plays resulted from Griner's annoyance that the game might have been slipping away. I also believe it was the dumbest move she could have made in a game that didn't mean anything of substance to either team. Those two plays will be significant motivation to UConn in the likely upcoming game - the one that really, really counts.

 

[Icebear]

The foul is much worse than many may have recognized and far more intentional than the Griner apologists want to admit. After the shot goes up Stef is boxing out with her left arm spread across Griner's path when Griner locks up Stef' arm across her chest by curling her arm up and around Stef's arm. while doing this Griner windmills her right arm over top of Stef completely trapping Stef's arm between Griner's two arms and then Griner swings Stef around by her arm to the ground. Blatant and flagrant.

 

[Icebear]

The way I saw it, before the first foul, UConn was clicking and seemed to have some momentum going. Griner appeared to be frustrated, and the flagrant foul was a result. It appeared an intentional grabbing of Dolson's arm to prevent her from getting down court. The refs got it right.

The second incident also appeared to be intentional. Dolson had Griner boxed out with her arms outstretched to the sides in anticipation of a rebound. Brittney brought her right arm over Dolson's shoulder and pressed it into her chest while simultaneously bringing her left arm down pinning Dolson's left arm against Griner's body. Griner then brought both arms down, slamming Dolson backward to the floor. There was no doubt in my mind that it was a Flagrant Foul. However, the lead ref (normally on the baseline), didn't seem to be on the baseline to observe the play. The Center ref, (who called no foul) when Stef was on the floor, was not in position to see the play, being behind Griner. The Trail ref probably couldn't see it either, several players being in the way. It should have been reviewed for a flagrant.

I believe both plays resulted from Griner's annoyance that the game might have been slipping away. I also believe it was the dumbest move she could have made in a game that didn't mean anything of substance to either team. Those two plays will be significant motivation to UConn in the likely upcoming game - the one that really, really counts.

Was posting at the same time and we clearly saw the same thing.

 

[Olde Coach]

Can someone tell me the time of the second takedown? I would like to watch it again.

The second takedown was at 12:16 -- with a full (right) arm swing like a tennis serve; and the left arm wrapped around Stef's left arm.

The 3 point shot was in the air, and Stef had BG blocked out and sealed off from the more advantageous position to get the possible rebound. Griner threw Stef down so she (BG) would have a better chance for the rebound. (The 3 point shot was good; so there was no rebound to be had.) But BG had the better position after throwing Stef out of her way. Griner's attempt to remove Stef from the play was much more than "acceptable physical post play." It was a physical assault way beyond the rules. The refs should have called a level 2 flagrant foul; and BG should have been ejected from the game.

And IMHO, the NCAA should give Griner at least a ten game suspension. Or suspend her for the rest of the season including the NCAA Tournament. (She is not a "first time offender" in the physical assault history books.) This was a disgrace for women's college basketball.

 

[msf22b]

The point is, after the second takedown, the refs blew the whistle, nice and loud to indicate a foul, spoke about among themselves it for a while, then came the timeout and the no-call.

Also, interestingly, I recall no reaction from Geno

Certainly needs a clarification from the league office.

 

[pap49cba]

The second takedown was at 12:16 -- with a full (right) arm swing like a tennis serve; and the left arm wrapped around Stef's left arm.

The 3 point shot was in the air, and Stef had BG blocked out and sealed off from the more advantageous position to get the possible rebound. Griner threw Stef down so she (BG) would have a better chance for the rebound. (The 3 point shot was good; so there was no rebound to be had.) But BG had the better position after throwing Stef out of her way. Griner's attempt to remove Stef from the play was much more than "acceptable physical post play." It was a physical assault way beyond the rules. The refs should have called a level 2 flagrant foul; and BG should have been ejected from the game.

And IMHO, the NCAA should give Griner at least a ten game suspension. Or suspend her for the rest of the season including the NCAA Tournament. (She is not a "first time offender" in the physical assault history books.) This was a disgrace for women's college basketball.

Just to play devil's advocate when was the last time the NCAA took such aggressive action? I suspect nothing will happen unfortunately.

 

[Vowelguy]

the refs blew the whistle, nice and loud to indicate a foul, spoke about among themselves it for a while, then came the timeout and the no-call.

No, the ref blew her whistle to indicate a timeout by Mulkey following the made basket.

 

[msf22b]

No, the ref blew her whistle to indicate a timeout by Mulkey following the made basket.

Sorry, didn't see it that way

 

[CCinCT]

The second takedown was at 12:16 -- with a full (right) arm swing like a tennis serve; and the left arm wrapped around Stef's left arm.

The 3 point shot was in the air, and Stef had BG blocked out and sealed off from the more advantageous position to get the possible rebound. Griner threw Stef down so she (BG) would have a better chance for the rebound. (The 3 point shot was good; so there was no rebound to be had.) But BG had the better position after throwing Stef out of her way. Griner's attempt to remove Stef from the play was much more than "acceptable physical post play." It was a physical assault way beyond the rules. The refs should have called a level 2 flagrant foul; and BG should have been ejected from the game.

And IMHO, the NCAA should give Griner at least a ten game suspension. Or suspend her for the rest of the season including the NCAA Tournament. (She is not a "first time offender" in the physical assault history books.) This was a disgrace for women's college basketball.

And the NCAA should remove the refs for the UCONN-Baylor game from any further NCAA employment.

 

[Icebear]

The second takedown was at 12:16 -- with a full (right) arm swing like a tennis serve; and the left arm wrapped around Stef's left arm.

The 3 point shot was in the air, and Stef had BG blocked out and sealed off from the more advantageous position to get the possible rebound. Griner threw Stef down so she (BG) would have a better chance for the rebound. (The 3 point shot was good; so there was no rebound to be had.) But BG had the better position after throwing Stef out of her way. Griner's attempt to remove Stef from the play was much more than "acceptable physical post play." It was a physical assault way beyond the rules. The refs should have called a level 2 flagrant foul; and BG should have been ejected from the game.

And IMHO, the NCAA should give Griner at least a ten game suspension. Or suspend her for the rest of the season including the NCAA Tournament. (She is not a "first time offender" in the physical assault history books.) This was a disgrace for women's college basketball.

A second flagrant foul in the game would have achieved the same end as a single Flagrant 2. Officials were afraid to call any kind of flagrant foul.

 

[UConn990411]

The second play was not that big a deal. It should have been a foul on Griner, but that's not close to a flagrant. The first one was a cheap shop, though.

Lol at the Baylor fan trying to argue that that could have been a foul on Dolson. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[chrissaran]

I think you're showing your bias and maybe I'm showing mine but there was a lot of grabbing and physical play under the basket last night. It wasn't like Dolson was an innocent bystander in the first incident. Griner was grabbed, pushed and hacked plenty last night but she's just so strong and athletic. Dolson, on the other hand, hit the floor several times. I believe there was a timeout for the second "incident" because it was the under 8:00 timeout.

Griner shot five free throws, so fouls were called or she wouldn't have gone to the line. The play was physical, as you said. However, I didn't see Stef grab Griner's arm for no reason and pull her down. Also, just because it's physical doesn't mean you grab a player and throw them to the floor, unless you just can't take it. With her size she should be tougher than that. Stef certainly was. Wait till Griner goes pro. Let's see how much grabbing and throwing down she does then.

 

[UConnChapette]

I just want to point out that Dolsen and Griner exchanged a hug in the handshake line.

Watched this hug exchange on the news tonight. It was not a mutual admiration society exchange. Stef is laughing and smiling with the player that was in front griner, looking slightly behind her. As soon as she turned and faced griner the smile and laughter vanished and the body language and look on Stef's face is like the look a kid has when her mom forces her to endure the hug from her obnoxious Aunt Bertha with the most horrible body odor and breath. It was a hug of obligatatory response, nothing more.

 

[Olde Coach]

Just to play devil's advocate when was the last time the NCAA took such aggressive action? I suspect nothing will happen unfortunately.

Pap -- Sadly, I expect you are right about the NCAA taking no action.

I'm a hard ass on this "incident. Someone has to "speak up" for the kids whose health and careers are being endangered. I do so without hesitation.

 

[ScarlettB]

I watched the game and I believe the call was correct. It was a flagrant 1. I do not believe BG intended to hurt SD. Personally, I think her coach called her out at halftime and told her to be more aggressive on both offense and defense. She was just trying to do that. She made a bad decision, but it did not rise to the level of flagrant 2. I don't know why the refs didn't call the second foul. Maybe she did not see what happened even though she was standing right there. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a ref missed a call.
I actually think the game is getting too physical, especially post play. I am all for the refs letting them play, but if they don't start enforcing some of the rules that are already on the books, it is going to get really ugly.

 

[pap49cba]

I am all for the refs letting them play, but if they don't start enforcing some of the rules that are already on the books, it is going to get really ugly.

I'm afraid we may already have moved past the tipping point. The game more and more resembles the men's game where big, strong players beat the crap out of each other and the last man standing wins. I'm afraid nothing is going to change unless and until someone is seriously injured. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm correct.

And by the by, I hate the phrase "letting them play" (this is not directed at you ScarlettB). If that's what people want, just play the game with no officials.... Playground rules.

 

[01Neaggrad02]

I just want to point out that Dolsen and Griner exchanged a hug in the handshake line.

Dolson has manners. She would not sit there and say "FU" to Griner in the line. However, Dolson is too much of a class act. Pulling people to the ground on the other hand.... shows limited class.

 

[schmendrick]

And the NCAA should remove the refs for the UCONN-Baylor game from any further NCAA employment.

Perhaps they can be transferred to Turkey. Or China. Full benefits. Just far, far away from the NCAA.

 

[pinotbear]

I'm afraid we may already have moved past the tipping point. The game more and more resembles the men's game where big, strong players beat the crap out of each other and the last man standing wins. I'm afraid nothing is going to change unless and until someone is seriously injured. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm correct.

And by the by, I hate the phrase "letting them play" (this is not directed at you ScarlettB). If that's what people want, just play the game with no officials.... Playground rules.

The thing about "playground rules" is, the second incident wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened, because somebody would have taken BG's legs out from under her, or bulldozed her into the backboard support, or, in some way, sent the message "knock it off!". I was a lousy basketball player, but quite proficient at this sort of task.

 

[msf22b]

Pinot
I had the same experience in the Army at an intramural soft-ball game in which the proficiency you note was required of me. Unfortunately the brawl that ensued resulted in an article 15 and being busted down to E-4 for 3 months along with lots of KP.

 

[OneTrickPony]

The thing about "playground rules" is, the second incident wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened, because somebody would have taken BG's legs out from under her, or bulldozed her into the backboard support, or, in some way, sent the message "knock it off!". I was a lousy basketball player, but quite proficient at this sort of task.

Too true...but Geno wisely won't permit it (although Wooden would've had Sven Nater in the game immediately). If Brittany doesn't get herself in hand...the European Leagues will be a nightmare for her...and not just because of the reaction from the players...the fans can be even weirder.

 

[Icebear]

The thing about "playground rules" is, the second incident wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened, because somebody would have taken BG's legs out from under her, or bulldozed her into the backboard support, or, in some way, sent the message "knock it off!". I was a lousy basketball player, but quite proficient at this sort of task.

A task for which bears are well suited. More than one bear has delivered a message spikes high a second or body rolling through the base. I punished my share of players at home blocking plate when a sweeping tag would have sufficed, a technique I prefer for seals. The old defensive linemen in me enjoyed the contact.

 

[RoyDodger]

I just want to point out that Dolsen and Griner exchanged a hug in the handshake line.

There is no question in my mind that Dolsen was one of the toughest challenges she faced, and, sans takedowns, probably gave as good as she got. Griner unfortunately is going to throw folks down if she exerts herself, so if she isn't playing under control, play becomes dangerous. I'm not as stirred up by the 2nd "non-foul", but thought the 1st was simply one of the stupidest things I ever saw a player do. Just grab an arm and yank down with no ball in sight? Automatic.

Up until Monday night's game I had never thought of Brittney Griner in the sense of being a dirty, rough or overly aggressive physical player. But what she did to Stefanie Dolson threw new light on my impression of Griner. No matter what pushing or shoving may have occurred previously in the game between the two post players, pulling a player's arm and throwing them to the ground, and then later pushing the same player to the floor, is not what we should be seeing in women's college basketball. That the referees essentially looked the other way on the second event is also not surprising as it is unfortunately well established in many sports that big stars often get favored treatment. How many times have you seen a star pitcher in baseball get called strikes on low outside pitches when a non-star would get only "balls" called for the same pitches?

And speaking of pushing or pulling a player to the floor, has anyone ever seen Griner on the floor? I don't recall ever seeing her being pushed down or slipping while shooting, but then again I've only seen a handful of Baylor games.

 

[CTHUSKY74]

I didn't post yesterday because I thought I might sound too much liker a homer. The second throw-down should have been called and Griner should have been ejected. The replay was very clear about what she had done and if they had used it they would have got this right. Probably they were unwilling to have BG ejected in a close game. I am all for them letting the bigs play and not calling the ticky-tack fouls because this helps to keep the game moving, but this is not physical play - it's assault! We don't let players us their hands to prevent movement of other players or prevent them from scoring. When they use the hands(or arms) it's a foul. And when they are not going for the ball and are going after the player themselves it's something more than that. Throwing another player to the deck is unacceptable even if that player is able to defend against that. If the refs truly missed that in the game, then it's up to the conferences and/or NCAA to deal with this. Stef could have been seriously hurt on that play and it's lucky she wasn't!! It's BS if they don't follow up on this.

 

[Kevin G]

I think you're showing your bias and maybe I'm showing mine but there was a lot of grabbing and physical play under the basket last night. It wasn't like Dolson was an innocent bystander in the first incident. Griner was grabbed, pushed and hacked plenty last night but she's just so strong and athletic. Dolson, on the other hand, hit the floor several times. I believe there was a timeout for the second "incident" because it was the under 8:00 timeout.

There probably is some bias between the both of us; however it is hard to argue when an athlete grabs another's arm and blatantly throws them down. That is hard to argue.