Greatest College BB Programs Ever

[CallMeBruce]

Yup. But 2013 for Louisville was vacated so that one doesn't count.

It does for this list. He could not have been more clear.

 

[CallMeBruce]

My bet is the criteria were massaged until they got the results they wanted. Why else would you count NBA picks (weighted heavily toward the higher picks)? The fact those picks helped with other criteria, like wins and titles and tournament bids, Final Fours and National Championships is double dipping IMHO.

Don't be ridiculous. Norlander did not change the formula to get certain results. If anything, the way he treated the numbers helped us, as everyone one of those Yankee Conference titles counted the same as our Big East titles.

 

[BoukofJames]

I didn’t realize Cincinnati was considered an all-time great program, but I always enjoy our battles with them. Their team identity fits so well in the Big East (and they used to recruit very well in NYC) and their football program seems to have outgrown the AAC. Im sure they’d love to join a power football conference but I wonder if football independence and re-joining the Big East is a better position for them than their current state. I really don’t know enough about the dynamics of college football to say, but I would like to see another public university join the Big East

 

[TheChamps990411]

If they are judging programs basically from their existence, you can see some surprises like a St John's making the top 25. IIRC, St John's is ranked top 10 for all time wins in college basketball history.

I remember when St Johns was good year in and year out. It all changed when they changed their name to "Red Storm" lol!

 

[LIUCHusky]

I didn’t realize Cincinnati was considered an all-time great program, but I always enjoy our battles with them. Their team identity fits so well in the Big East (and they used to recruit very well in NYC) and their football program seems to have outgrown the AAC. Im sure they’d love to join a power football conference but I wonder if football independence and re-joining the Big East is a better position for them than their current state. I really don’t know enough about the dynamics of college football to say, but I would like to see another public university join the Big East

How do you think Xavier would we feel about this?

 

[David 76]

I never consider Louisville a blue blood. Just the other 6.

I would say Indiana was a blue blood.

 

[BoukofJames]

How do you think Xavier would we feel about this?

good point, I hadn’t thought about that

 

[ucp990411]

Where will we be on this list after we get #5?

 

[freescooter]

I would argue that through 1970, an NIT title should be roughly equivalent to an NCAA title. I believe the 1970 Marquette team was the last big time program to turn down an NCAA bid for an NIT bid, but prior to 1970, the NIT was usually the deeper tournament because it was entirely at-large bids while the NCAA had mostly automatic bids, quite a few of which went to weak teams from weak conferences. Look at some of the teams UCLA played before the Final Four to win its early titles. There were a lot of wins over teams like UC Santa Barbara, New Mexico State and Santa Clara.

The NCAA Tournament didn't start to look like the modern tournament until the mid 70's, when it began significant expansion and also stopped the practice of regional bracketing in the early rounds (I can't find exactly when the regional bracketing ended). In 1981 the NCAA added the 3 point line, in 1985 it expanded the tournament to 64 teams, and in 1986 it added a shot clock. It is really hard to compare what happened prior to those three events with what happened after.

A championship from 1960 should be worth maybe half the value of a championship from 1990 or 2020.

That is what I was saying about Providence they had 2 NIT titles that they won when the NIT was really seen as the better tournament. Deeper field, no automatic bids. At large teams in particular often chose it over the NCAAs. I’m not sure I agree that rule changes like the 3 point line and shot clock made the Championship tougher. Those changed the game some but not sure they made it tougher but certainly the expansion to 48 then 64 did.

 

[David 76]

Where will we be on this list after we get #5?

In my opinion, ahead of Kansas.

 

[Adios]

That list actually is interesting and the methodology definitely is very interesting, as well. Screw it, we need more titles to move up in the public eye.

At least the men's program. Women's program is a media darling.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

What has Cincinnati ever done outside of Oscar And Kenyan Martin????? May as well have University of San Fran in the top 10

 

[scuba lou]

Syracuse thread on this

 

[Palatine]

It's nice we still have a little room to move up.

 

[ToolzieFan]

It’s hard to believe that we were just named the 8th greatest program in the history of college basketball and some people are viewing this as negative in any way. Can you imagine telling anyone in 1989 that UConn would be considered a top-10 program of all-time in 2020? It’s fun to debate lists like this, even ones with objective criteria, but I was stoked to be reminded of our standing among the greatest programs.

I think an interesting list would be the top programs since the NCAA Tournament expanded to 1985 teams. Somebody with more time on their hands than me should make that list.

 

[superjohn]

It’s hard to believe that we were just named the 8th greatest program in the history of college basketball and some people are viewing this as negative in any way. Can you imagine telling anyone in 1989 that UConn would be considered a top-10 program of all-time in 2020? It’s fun to debate lists like this, even ones with objective criteria, but I was stoked to be reminded of our standing among the greatest programs.

I think an interesting list would be the top programs since the NCAA Tournament expanded to 1985 teams. Somebody with more time on their hands than me should make that list.

These lists are always silly, that we're only 2 places in front of Cincy and behind Louisville is nothing to take pride in. Sorry I clicked on it.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Syracuse thread on this

No program with one national title belongs in the top 10.

 

[Adios]

They're looking at programs from every angle. Weeks ranked to NBA draftees. We've been ranked for maybe more than half as many weeks as Louisville

 

[alphasigko]

While the stats are there for Kentucky to be #1, it chaps my butt none the less.

 

[Zissou]

All Time
1-UCLA
2-Kentucky
3-UNC
4-Duke
5-Indiana
6-Kansas
7-UConn
8-Louisville
9-Nova
10-Mich State

Modern Era - since 1980
1-UNC
2-Duke
3-UConn
4-Kentucky
5-Louisville
6-Nova
7-Kansas
8-Florida
9-Indiana
10-Mich State

Last 5 Years
1-Nova

 

[nelsonmuntz]

That is what I was saying about Providence they had 2 NIT titles that they won when the NIT was really seen as the better tournament. Deeper field, no automatic bids. At large teams in particular often chose it over the NCAAs. I’m not sure I agree that rule changes like the 3 point line and shot clock made the Championship tougher. Those changed the game some but not sure they made it tougher but certainly the expansion to 48 then 64 did.

Shot Clock: Pre shot clock, the team with the lead had a huge advantage in the last 10 minutes (obviously), forcing the team in the hole to take bigger and bigger risks. This cut both ways, because underdogs could be up late too.

The bigger issue was that size had a huge advantage both because of no shot clock, and because of no 3 point line. The higher profile teams generally had the size, making it harder for lower ranked teams to pull the upset.

With the shot clock, a lot of marginal strategies, like LMU's over-the-top press or Arkansas' 40 minutes of hell, became a lot more effective. In the old days, pressing was a big risk if the other team had a couple of good ballhandlers, because they could play keep away until they got someone wide open under the basket. With a 45, and later a 35, second shot clock, if the press caused a team to burn 15 seconds getting into its offense, it was an effective press, because 20 seconds is not a long time to have to play half court defense.

3 point line: With the 3 point line, EVERYTHING changed. Slower, shorter teams suddenly had a shot if they had a couple of kids that could shoot 3's. Huge upsets became possible, which made it a lot harder to win the 6 games needed to win a National Championship. The 21-10 mid-major conference champ only had to get hot for one game to enter the history books, and many of those kind of teams have.


I would add a few other things making it harder to maintain excellence today than it was 40 or 50 years ago:

1) AAU - AAU is more pervasive than it was 30 or 40 years ago. This means the talent level is deeper for the second, third and fourth tier programs.

2) Foreign Players - The arrival of the foreign players in the 80's had an immediate impact. Olajuwon was the biggest name, but players like Andrew Gaze and Nadav Henefeld transformed their programs, and the college game. By the end of the 90's, and beyond, college basketball played a more passing and shooting style rather than simply taking it to the hole style.

3) Analytics - these have changed every major sport at every level. There are good coaches everywhere today, and mid-major coaches have more and better information to coach with than the top programs had 40 years ago.

 

[BigTenFan]

Shot Clock: Pre shot clock, the team with the lead had a huge advantage in the last 10 minutes (obviously), forcing the team in the hole to take bigger and bigger risks. This cut both ways, because underdogs could be up late too.

The bigger issue was that size had a huge advantage both because of no shot clock, and because of no 3 point line. The higher profile teams generally had the size, making it harder for lower ranked teams to pull the upset.

With the shot clock, a lot of marginal strategies, like LMU's over-the-top press or Arkansas' 40 minutes of hell, became a lot more effective. In the old days, pressing was a big risk if the other team had a couple of good ballhandlers, because they could play keep away until they got someone wide open under the basket. With a 45, and later a 35, second shot clock, if the press caused a team to burn 15 seconds getting into its offense, it was an effective press, because 20 seconds is not a long time to have to play half court defense.

3 point line: With the 3 point line, EVERYTHING changed. Slower, shorter teams suddenly had a shot if they had a couple of kids that could shoot 3's. Huge upsets became possible, which made it a lot harder to win the 6 games needed to win a National Championship. The 21-10 mid-major conference champ only had to get hot for one game to enter the history books, and many of those kind of teams have.


I would add a few other things making it harder to maintain excellence today than it was 40 or 50 years ago:

1) AAU - AAU is more pervasive than it was 30 or 40 years ago. This means the talent level is deeper for the second, third and fourth tier programs.

2) Foreign Players - The arrival of the foreign players in the 80's had an immediate impact. Olajuwon was the biggest name, but players like Andrew Gaze and Nadav Henefeld transformed their programs, and the college game. By the end of the 90's, and beyond, college basketball played a more passing and shooting style rather than simply taking it to the hole style.

3) Analytics - these have changed every major sport at every level. There are good coaches everywhere today, and mid-major coaches have more and better information to coach with than the top programs had 40 years ago.

The game has also changed with one and done players and programs.
Kentucky is the poster child for recruiting kids to play only one year

 

[Zissou]

Blue Bloods - unanimous
Kentucky
UNC
Kansas
Duke

- disputed
UConn
Ville
Nova

- fallen
UCLA
Indiana

 

[Ratso]

St. john’s & Georgetown could’ve been the elite of the elites looking back

 

[glastonbury50]

I still feel like UConn is treated by the bluebloods the way the Italian Cycling team treated Dave in Breaking Away. Never really accepted.

I can't be the only one who likes it this way.