OT: Grammar controversy

[Puppy Love]

I am a retired data professional. As such, I spent a great deal of time writing emails to explain data to end users. I assure you sure l was not allowed to end a sentence with a preposition. To this day, I’m pretty vigilant about it. I’m sure I slip up now and then, but I really do try to double check before sending a message.

 

[Vowelguy]

This isn’t what I learned in elementary school.

Yeah, well, but had they invented the concept of 0 when you were in elementary school?

 

[Plebe]

I am a retired data professional. As such, I spent a great deal of time writing emails to explain data to end users. I assure you sure l was not allowed to end a sentence with a preposition. To this day, I’m pretty vigilant about it. I’m sure I slip up now and then, but I really do try to double check before sending a message.

 

[Sifaka]

Here's an interesting, if verbose, history of the origins of the so-called rule.

Don’t End a Sentence with a Preposition—Where Did This Myth Come From? - The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation

We've written a newsletter article about it (Problems with Prepositions), and in Rule 1 of Prepositions we state, "One of the undying myths of English grammar is that you may not end a sentence with a preposition." Yet, we still receive admonitions from well-meaning readers who think we've made...

www.grammarbook.com

 

[Jackcatscal]

I've also done some professional writing - newspaper and magazine columns among other things. My general rule of thumb of rule is grammar is a good guide but only a guide. If it sounds better but breaks a rule, then to heck with the rule.

Another fun voice on this topic:

And, "Have you eaten grandma?"

 

[Steelerone]

Please note that many of these prepositions serve also as adverbs and adjectives.
Context is all important.

As the eminent philosopher Anónimo taught us, many grammatical rules are not rules at all. They are just stylistic preferences uttered with conviction by crones, churls, and curmudgeons.

 

[temery]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

 

[Sifaka]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

That's what they taught me in eighth grade typing class c. 1960, and I see no reason to consider a change. Note the preceding split infinitive. I fail to completely sympathize with grammar pedantry and its preoccupation with “rules” that serve little purpose. See, I did it again. [/chortle]

 

[temery]

 

[Jackcatscal]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

Antediluvian!

 

[CL82]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

I'm pretty sure The Boneyard automatically edits out that extra space. Just saying.

 

[Plebe]

A fun and informative Q&A from the Chicago Manual of Style on the “one space” vs. “two space” brouhaha:

The Chicago Manual of Style, 18th Edition

Find it. Write it. Cite it. The Chicago Manual of Style Online is the venerable, time-tested guide to style, usage, and grammar in an accessible online format. ¶ It is the indispensable reference for writers, editors, proofreaders, indexers, copywriters, designers, and publishers, informing the...

www.chicagomanualofstyle.org

 

[OldSchooler]

View attachment 109867

Cop sees a kid in the lake. Hey, get out of there. Didn't you see the sign? -- PRIVATE, NO SWIMMING ALLOWED.

Kid: That's not how I read it.

Cop: OK, wise guy, how'd you read it?

Kid: PRIVATE? NO-O-O-O-O. SWIMMING ALLOWED.

 

[tomcat]

Ending all sentences with prepositions will turn you into Yoda. And anyway, it's way too much work.

 

[Scud49]

"It ain't necessarily so..."

 

[Steelerone]

Or as Willie once said, "Life is but a walking shadow. A poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard from no more."

 

[Bigboote]

This is a very entertaining book and tangentially appropriate for this thread.

 

[veivoli]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

This was the practice with monospace fonts, as used in typewriters. In typesetting, and with proportional fonts, one space is the normal rule. I had a manager who was trained to type, the old-fashioned way, in the military (not USA) and they were taught to use three spaces after a full stop!

 

[veivoli]

There's a story that falls in to the category of "stories I hope are true..." A book on writing style was published in England with the title How to be Brief. It was so successful that a revised edition was published in the USA under the new title How to Express Yourself Clearly and Concisely.

Disclaimer: I'm from neither the UK nor the USA!

Edit: Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to BigBoote #47 above. (The number changed!)

 

[huskyd]

This isn’t what I learned in elementary school. This might be as controversial as the Oxford comma

The issue is that a preposition must have an object, so it's best to come before its object. Few grammar rules are absolute, but well-educated folks tend to be sensitive to the manner in which they use language. Dangling your preposition can bother some fussbudgets or get you arrested on the subway.
For sports' fans, worrying about "I" and "me" is challenge enough. For athletes, it's too much.
RIP: Kibbitzer

 

[JoePgh]

The next emerging grammatical super-question is whether right-thinking writers and grammarians should countenance the disappearance of "whom" from the spoken and written language.

There was a popular song a few decades ago entitled "Who Can I Turn To When Nobody Needs Me?". A prudish grammarian pointed out that "Who" in that sentence was incorrect; it should have been "Whom".

To which the singer replied, "Anyone who asks 'Whom can I turn to' ain't gonna have nobody to turn to!"

 

[Bigboote]

Whom Can I Turn To can enter the annals of popular music alongside the Gershwins’ I Have Rhythm, Sting’s If You Love Someone Set Him or Her Free, and Robert Johnson’s The Devil and I Blues.

 

[Plebe]

The issue is that a preposition must have an object, so it's best to come before its object. Few grammar rules are absolute, but well-educated folks tend to be sensitive to the manner in which they use language. Dangling your preposition can bother some fussbudgets or get you arrested on the subway.

It's unclear to me why this is deemed best in an abstract or general sense. These things are situational.

So by this stricture, when I address the fussbudgets (great word, by the way!), rather than asking, “Is this really worth fussing over?” I should say, “Is this something about which it is worthwhile to fuss?”

 

[MooseJaw]

I don't know about you, but my grammar was a lovely, dignified, elderly woman who never did anything controversial in her life.

Not controversial? she had kids, didn't she? Glad she did, without her no CL82 posts. Probably late but congratulations Grammer.

 

[Sifaka]

xxHaving argued the spacing following a period/full stop with one of my offsprung, (he advocates for a single space, I favor an elongated blank.) I waded through all of the CMOS Q&A. I lost some respect for the otherwise worthy Chicago Manual.

xxTheir reasoning for adopting a single space standard has two pillars: (1) everybody does it, and (2) it's harder to proofread to a double space standard. xxWhile those are reasonable concerns, they absolutely omit aesthetic considerations and fudge on the matter of legibility. The latter two considerations matter more to me than the first two, but I am a collector of “old” books and a former typographer and current reader of paper bound into binders' boards.

cxJust as with the so-called “rules“ of grammar that are not rules, these are simply stylistic preferences. To call a preference right or wrong is an act of supreme arrogance, akin to declaring that all religions other than one's own are wrong.

xxEdited to add: Should you wish to join my antediluvian style brigade, and place two ems before the initial word of a paragraph, (1) display the color palette, (2) choose white, (3) typle any two characters at random, (4) revert color to black.

 

[Sifaka]

The next emerging grammatical super-question is whether right-thinking writers and grammarians should countenance the disappearance of "whom" from the spoken and written language.

Having a British spouse leads me to consider yet another grammatical brouhaha: The unloved and oft' unseen subjunctive. The Brits waved goodbye to it for the most part a while back. Colonials such as ourselves are often the conservators of older linguistic forms, so American English maintains a few more uses of the subjunctive than British English. If I were a betting man, I would wager on the disappearance of the subjunctive on both sides of the puddle by the end of the century.

Note the final sentence, above. Condition contrary to fact calls for subjunctive, followed by conditional. If I were…vs. …If I was.

 

[Bigboote]

Note the final sentence, above. Condition contrary to fact calls for subjunctive, followed by conditional. If I were…vs. …If I was.

Frank Loesser knew that. Here's Curtis Fuller playing the tune from Guys and Dolls (by way of Miles Davis)

 

[Sifaka]

Musical subjunctives are nice, and if they have lyrics…

 

[Plebe]

xxHaving argued the spacing following a period/full stop with one of my offsprung, (he advocates for a single space, I favor an elongated blank.) I waded through all of the CMOS Q&A. I lost some respect for the otherwise worthy Chicago Manual.

xxTheir reasoning for adopting a single space standard has two pillars: (1) everybody does it, and (2) it's harder to proofread to a double space standard. xxWhile those are reasonable concerns, they absolutely omit aesthetic considerations and fudge on the matter of legibility. The latter two considerations matter more to me than the first two, but I am a collector of “old” books and a former typographer and current reader of paper bound into binders' boards.

And my respect for CMOS only increased; go figure. Aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder. I myself find an “em quad” or elongated space after punto y seguido to be gawdily unsightly.

Yet another fabulous Q&A for the hard-to-convince, courtesy of a typography expert:

One space between sentences | Butterick’s Practical Typography

Butterick’s Practical Typography

practicaltypography.com

 

[huskyd]

It's unclear to me why this is deemed best in an abstract or general sense. These things are situational.

So by this stricture, when I address the fussbudgets (great word, by the way!), rather than asking, “Is this really worth fussing over?” I should say, “Is this something about which it is worthwhile to fuss?”

No, it's not, you fussbudget.