OT: Grammar controversy

[cullaville]

I went from an abysmal writer to a pretty good one based on two rules a creative writing teacher had when I was a junior in high school:

Use strong verbs.

Never use two words where one will suffice. (There were ALWAYS points off for adverbs, which violate both rules.)

At work, if there was a page limit on a paper our group was submitting, I always wrote the first draft.

"Never use two words where one would suffice"

Can we get broadcasters and commentators to do this?

 

[Jackcatscal]

The sentence "It is permissible in English for a preposition to be what you end a sentence with" is ridiculously awkward. I suppose Merriam-Webster was trying to be ironic, but that's a little out of character for a dictionary or style guide. How about, "It is permissible in English to end a sentence with a preposition"?

 

[Steelerone]

I like the way that idea comes across. It's time to put up or shut up.
It's a position we can all get behind. There's no need to think it over.

I'm going to attempt to replicate a REPLY.

 

[Sifaka]

I'm going to attempt to replicate a REPLY.

Please note that many of these prepositions serve also as adverbs and adjectives.
Context is all important.

As the eminent philosopher Anónimo taught us, many grammatical rules are not rules at all. They are just stylistic preferences uttered with conviction by crones, churls, and curmudgeons.

 

[cabbie191]

I've also done some professional writing - newspaper and magazine columns among other things. My general rule of thumb of rule is grammar is a good guide but only a guide. If it sounds better but breaks a rule, then to heck with the rule.

Another fun voice on this topic:

 

[Puppy Love]

I am a retired data professional. As such, I spent a great deal of time writing emails to explain data to end users. I assure you sure l was not allowed to end a sentence with a preposition. To this day, I’m pretty vigilant about it. I’m sure I slip up now and then, but I really do try to double check before sending a message.

 

[Vowelguy]

This isn’t what I learned in elementary school.

Yeah, well, but had they invented the concept of 0 when you were in elementary school?

 

[Plebe]

I am a retired data professional. As such, I spent a great deal of time writing emails to explain data to end users. I assure you sure l was not allowed to end a sentence with a preposition. To this day, I’m pretty vigilant about it. I’m sure I slip up now and then, but I really do try to double check before sending a message.

 

[Sifaka]

Here's an interesting, if verbose, history of the origins of the so-called rule.

Don’t End a Sentence with a Preposition—Where Did This Myth Come From? - The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation

We've written a newsletter article about it (Problems with Prepositions), and in Rule 1 of Prepositions we state, "One of the undying myths of English grammar is that you may not end a sentence with a preposition." Yet, we still receive admonitions from well-meaning readers who think we've made...

www.grammarbook.com

 

[Jackcatscal]

I've also done some professional writing - newspaper and magazine columns among other things. My general rule of thumb of rule is grammar is a good guide but only a guide. If it sounds better but breaks a rule, then to heck with the rule.

Another fun voice on this topic:

And, "Have you eaten grandma?"

 

[Steelerone]

Please note that many of these prepositions serve also as adverbs and adjectives.
Context is all important.

As the eminent philosopher Anónimo taught us, many grammatical rules are not rules at all. They are just stylistic preferences uttered with conviction by crones, churls, and curmudgeons.

 

[temery]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

 

[Sifaka]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

That's what they taught me in eighth grade typing class c. 1960, and I see no reason to consider a change. Note the preceding split infinitive. I fail to completely sympathize with grammar pedantry and its preoccupation with “rules” that serve little purpose. See, I did it again. [/chortle]

 

[temery]

 

[Jackcatscal]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

Antediluvian!

 

[CL82]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

I'm pretty sure The Boneyard automatically edits out that extra space. Just saying.

 

[Plebe]

A fun and informative Q&A from the Chicago Manual of Style on the “one space” vs. “two space” brouhaha:

The Chicago Manual of Style, 18th Edition

Find it. Write it. Cite it. The Chicago Manual of Style Online is the venerable, time-tested guide to style, usage, and grammar in an accessible online format. ¶ It is the indispensable reference for writers, editors, proofreaders, indexers, copywriters, designers, and publishers, informing the...

www.chicagomanualofstyle.org

 

[OldSchooler]

View attachment 109867

Cop sees a kid in the lake. Hey, get out of there. Didn't you see the sign? -- PRIVATE, NO SWIMMING ALLOWED.

Kid: That's not how I read it.

Cop: OK, wise guy, how'd you read it?

Kid: PRIVATE? NO-O-O-O-O. SWIMMING ALLOWED.

 

[tomcat]

Ending all sentences with prepositions will turn you into Yoda. And anyway, it's way too much work.

 

[Scud49]

"It ain't necessarily so..."

 

[Steelerone]

Or as Willie once said, "Life is but a walking shadow. A poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard from no more."

 

[Bigboote]

This is a very entertaining book and tangentially appropriate for this thread.

 

[veivoli]

I don't care what anybody says. I'm using two spaces after punctuation.

This was the practice with monospace fonts, as used in typewriters. In typesetting, and with proportional fonts, one space is the normal rule. I had a manager who was trained to type, the old-fashioned way, in the military (not USA) and they were taught to use three spaces after a full stop!

 

[veivoli]

There's a story that falls in to the category of "stories I hope are true..." A book on writing style was published in England with the title How to be Brief. It was so successful that a revised edition was published in the USA under the new title How to Express Yourself Clearly and Concisely.

Disclaimer: I'm from neither the UK nor the USA!

Edit: Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to BigBoote #47 above. (The number changed!)

 

[huskyd]

This isn’t what I learned in elementary school. This might be as controversial as the Oxford comma

The issue is that a preposition must have an object, so it's best to come before its object. Few grammar rules are absolute, but well-educated folks tend to be sensitive to the manner in which they use language. Dangling your preposition can bother some fussbudgets or get you arrested on the subway.
For sports' fans, worrying about "I" and "me" is challenge enough. For athletes, it's too much.
RIP: Kibbitzer