Got to love the NCAA...

[freescooter]

What's the standard for Facey?
Would he have been allowed to compete if he left school after 2 years? 3 years? 4 years?
I suspect not. He wouldn't have had the credits.
So he wasn't repeating a grade for athletic reasons.

As I understand it, that isn't what the NCAA is saying in his case. They are saying that he effectively already graduated from high school 2-3 years ago in Jamaica, then came to new York and re-enrolled in high school for purposes of improving his basketball skills. There is a rule that once you graduate from high school you can't go off and go back to high school just to improve as a basketball player. The situation is a little different because when he "graduated" it was in a foreign country with fairly significant differences in its educational system. This is an easy case if he graduated from Hall high in West Hartford, then moved to New York and enrolled in LI Lutheran to repeat his last 2 years. It is more complex because the jamaica system is quite different from the US system and a high school diploma from here isn't exactly comparable to passing an exam there. On the other hand, if you read Facey's bio, he didn't come to LI Lutheran for the education. So that adds a level of complexity as does the age factor. It would be a rare 16 year old who would be admitted to any US college under any circumstances. On the other hand he is now 20 per some reports which suggests that he did hang around for more than just the education. He's have a much better case if he was 18 than 20. To me this one seems a little grey. If he came to the US at say 16, enrolled in high school and stayed 2 years, graduated there, it is a much easier case. You argue that the differences in the education system made it impossible for you to go directly to college despite your Jamaican "diploma." And the US high schools have different academic standards anyway. I know this is being portrayed as a kid putting academics first, but then he says things like he transferred to LI Lutheran because the coach was better, and he came to the US through some Jamaican sports group whose aim is to identify athletes and get them better competition in the US. so it really isn't about academics. It is about basketball.

 

[aceboon]

As I understand it, that isn't what the NCAA is saying in his case. They are saying that he effectively already graduated from high school 2-3 years ago in Jamaica, then came to new York and re-enrolled in high school for purposes of improving his basketball skills. There is a rule that once you graduate from high school you can't go off and go back to high school just to improve as a basketball player. The situation is a little different because when he "graduated" it was in a foreign country with fairly significant differences in its educational system. This is an easy case if he graduated from Hall high in West Hartford, then moved to New York and enrolled in LI Lutheran to repeat his last 2 years. It is more complex because the jamaica system is quite different from the US system and a high school diploma from here isn't exactly comparable to passing an exam there. On the other hand, if you read Facey's bio, he didn't come to LI Lutheran for the education. So that adds a level of complexity as does the age factor. It would be a rare 16 year old who would be admitted to any US college under any circumstances. On the other hand he is now 20 per some reports which suggests that he did hang around for more than just the education. He's have a much better case if he was 18 than 20.

I think he is 19, not 20. Don Amore's article said he was 19, and his NBADraft.net profile says he is 19 as well, I believe Duffy's was wrong in saying he was 20 in his article and basically threw off the entire timeline he put together.

 

[upstater]

As I understand it, that isn't what the NCAA is saying in his case. They are saying that he effectively already graduated from high school 2-3 years ago in Jamaica, then came to new York and re-enrolled in high school for purposes of improving his basketball skills. There is a rule that once you graduate from high school you can't go off and go back to high school just to improve as a basketball player. The situation is a little different because when he "graduated" it was in a foreign country with fairly significant differences in its educational system. This is an easy case if he graduated from Hall high in West Hartford, then moved to New York and enrolled in LI Lutheran to repeat his last 2 years. It is more complex because the jamaica system is quite different from the US system and a high school diploma from here isn't exactly comparable to passing an exam there. On the other hand, if you read Facey's bio, he didn't come to LI Lutheran for the education. So that adds a level of complexity as does the age factor. It would be a rare 16 year old who would be admitted to any US college under any circumstances. On the other hand he is now 20 per some reports which suggests that he did hang around for more than just the education. He's have a much better case if he was 18 than 20. To me this one seems a little grey. If he came to the US at say 16, enrolled in high school and stayed 2 years, graduated there, it is a much easier case. You argue that the differences in the education system made it impossible for you to go directly to college despite your Jamaican "diploma." And the US high schools have different academic standards anyway. I know this is being portrayed as a kid putting academics first, but then he says things like he transferred to LI Lutheran because the coach was better, and he came to the US through some Jamaican sports group whose aim is to identify athletes and get them better competition in the US. so it really isn't about academics. It is about basketball.

He was 15 when he passed that exam. The chances that the NCAA would allow him to play in college after passing an exam as a 15 year old are minimal. He had no other choice. Remember Majok's troubles?

 

[freescooter]

I think he is 19, not 20. Don Amore's article said he was 19, and his NBADraft.net profile says he is 19 as well, I believe Duffy's was wrong in saying he was 20 in his article and basically threw off the entire timeline he put together.

Ok. I remember seeing 20, but which I think raises lots of issues.

 

[freescooter]

He was 15 when he passed that exam. The chances that the NCAA would allow him to play in college after passing an exam as a 15 year old are minimal. He had no other choice. Remember Majok's troubles?

I read 16, but there seem to be so many conflicting stories I'm not sure of that either. And I agree with you. frankly I doubt any college would accept him at 15 or 16 whether to play basketball or just to be a full time student unless he was otherwise uniquely qualified. And I said I think a case could be made if he went to a US high school for a couple of years. It just gets sticky the older he is and the more years he spent there, particularly given the reason he came in the first place.

 

[upstater]

I read 16, but there seem to be so many conflicting stories I'm not sure of that either. And I agree with you. frankly I doubt any college would accept him at 15 or 16 whether to play basketball or just to be a full time student unless he was otherwise uniquely qualified. And I said I think a case could be made if he went to a US high school for a couple of years. It just gets sticky the older he is and the more years he spent there, particularly given the reason he came in the first place.

Well, no US high school would give him credits to graduate. So, what could he do? You have to actually earn your credits. The NCAA should talk to the high school.

 

[freescooter]

Well, no US high school would give him credits to graduate. So, what could he do? You have to actually earn your credits. The NCAA should talk to the high school.

accordin gto reports, that is what is happening, or at least one of the things that is happening. I don't know enough about Jamaican vs US education to say his passage of a graduation exam in Jamaica would not be accepted as comparable to high school graduation in the US. Not sure that a high school would have to grant him a graduation in any case. That isn't really what the argument is about, I don't think. At least not entirely. that is a factor but only 1 of many.

 

[AtlHusky]

He was 15 when he passed that exam. The chances that the NCAA would allow him to play in college after passing an exam as a 15 year old are minimal. He had no other choice. Remember Majok's troubles?

I read that he was born in July of 1993 (link from Duffy below), which would make him 20 now. We know he’s played 3 yrs in the US. So the timeline as I understand it is:
- Started playing hoop at 15
- Spring of 2010 at age of 16, he passed the Jamaican HS exam
- Fall of 2010, at the age of 17, he enrolled in HS on LI and was evaluated to be at a Soph level academically
- Spring of 2011, at the age of 17, he completed the 1st year of US HS
- Spring of 2012, at the age of 18, he completed the 2nd year of US HS
- Spring of 2013, at the age of 19, he completed the 3rd year of US HS and is a US HS grad
- Fall of 2013, at the age of 20, he is enrolled at UConn

http://www.ctpost.com/uconn/article/Kevin-Duffy-Will-NCAA-resolve-Facey-s-unique-4719268.php

So in the NCAA's eyes, because of the exam he passed in Jamaica, to play college ball and keep full eligibility he would have had to
- come to the US and enroll in HS to earn the credits needed to be accepted into college. It was determined that would take 3 years
- only compete in 1 of those 3 years

Anybody else see that this puts the athlete that has only been playing his sport for a year at a huge disadvantage?

 

[ctchamps]

I read that he was born in July of 1993 (link from Duffy below), which would make him 20 now. We know he’s played 3 yrs in the US. So the timeline as I understand it is:
- Started playing hoop at 15
- Spring of 2010 at age of 16, he passed the Jamaican HS exam
- Fall of 2010, at the age of 17, he enrolled in HS on LI and was evaluated to be at a Soph level academically
- Spring of 2011, at the age of 17, he completed the 1st year of US HS
- Spring of 2012, at the age of 18, he completed the 2nd year of US HS
- Spring of 2013, at the age of 19, he completed the 3rd year of US HS and is a US HS grad
- Fall of 2013, at the age of 20, he is enrolled at UConn

http://www.ctpost.com/uconn/article/Kevin-Duffy-Will-NCAA-resolve-Facey-s-unique-4719268.php

So in the NCAA's eyes, because of the exam he passed in Jamaica, to play college ball and keep full eligibility he would have had to
- come to the US and enroll in HS to earn the credits needed to be accepted into college. It was determined that would take 3 years
- only compete in 1 of those 3 years

Anybody else see that this puts the athlete that has only been playing his sport for a year at a huge disadvantage?

Duffy's information disagrees with other DOB's. Time to get the Birther's on this.

 

[AtlHusky]

Duffy's information disagrees with other DOB's. Time to get the Birther's on this.

Duffy is the only one that I've seen provide a DOB (which doesn't mean its accurate). Where else have you seen a DOB for KF?

 

[aceboon]

Duffy is the only one that I've seen provide a DOB (which doesn't mean its accurate). Where else have you seen a DOB for KF?

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kentan-facey

 

[AtlHusky]

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kentan-facey

Maybe I trust Duffy more than NBADraft.net, but I did see that Amore said KF was 19 on 8/6. Not that I trust Amore more than Duffy either.

Regardless of whether he was born in July of '93 or '94 the point of my post still holds true:

So in the NCAA's eyes, because of the exam he passed in Jamaica, to play college ball and keep full eligibility he would have had to
- come to the US and enroll in HS to earn the credits needed to be accepted into college. It was determined that would take 3 years
- only compete in 1 of those 3 years

Anybody else see that this puts the athlete that has only been playing his sport for a year (or less) at a huge disadvantage?

 

[freescooter]

I think you raise one of the issues that is trying to be worked out, namely did he need to go to high school for 3 years to earn the required credits for college or could he have done it in a year, maybe 2 years? The fact that he has only been playing his sport for a year is neither here nor there as far as the argument goes. While it is true that it puts him at something of a disadvantage, once again keep in mind that the NCAA's role isn't to make sure the kid has the best opportunity to become an athlete at a D1 school. Quite possibly after 1 or 2 years he was good enough to play D2 ball or even D1 in the NEC or somewhere. They want to make sure that he doesn't repeat a year of high school which he doesn't need to repeat simply to improve his basketball skills to a level where he can play at a higher level. Not saying the rule is right, but that is the intent. And international students who come from all different types of academic backgrounds absolutley have a more difficult process to go through, but that is expected since the NCAA is an association of American universities and its rules are designed to accommodate kids in American high schools. It has a hard time dealing with kids from other places and who are educated in different systems or multiple systems. Look, I can go to the NCAA site and put in my local high school and get a list of every course that does or does not meet NCAA standards for eligibility. You can do that for most, I won't guarantee all, US and many Canadian high schools. I am willing to wager you can't do it for a single Jamaican High School or a single Australian high school. If you graduate from Conard High, they can look at your transcript, look at the courses and in about 12 seconds determine if you qualify. For foreign students it is much different, especially if they come from a vastly different educational system. When they say passing the exam is comparable to getting a US high school diploma, I don't even know what that means. Does it mean he can go to the University of Jamaica if there is such a thing? Does it mean like in Great Britain that he now gets shunted off to trade school or goes on to "college" to prepare for university? I don't have a clue. And most likely the NCAA doesn't either. So they follow their rules as if it was comparable to a US diploma and put the onus on the student and the school to show why that doesn't apply. If you look at the Harvard kid, it sure sounds like she repeated a year she didn't need to repeat to graduate, in order to qualify for Harvard. But it isn't the NCAA's job to make sure a kid qualifies for Harvard rather than merely getting into Brown. So the argument is a little disingenuous I think. Not 100% sure how it will play out for Facey. If it is true that he needed 3 full years of high school to get credits to graduate, that's one thing. If he really only needed 1 or 2 that is a different situation. I don't know the answer.

 

[AtlHusky]

My point had little to do with advantage/disadvantage. That was more an KF specific observation of where he would be if he followed what the NCAA rules require. It had more to do with the academic side, as in the academic evaluation done by the first HS he went to on LI. As upstater said earlier, the NCAA needs to talk to the HS to determine if the three years of HS were necessary to allow KF to qualify for a US HS diploma and be eligible to play for an NCAA member institution. If so, passing the exam in Jamaica servers no purpose and shouldn't be the point at which his eligibility clock is started.

 

[freescooter]

My point had little to do with advantage/disadvantage. That was more an KF specific observation of where he would be if he followed what the NCAA rules require. It had more to do with the academic side, as in the academic evaluation done by the first HS he went to on LI. As upstater said earlier, the NCAA needs to talk to the HS to determine if the three years of HS were necessary to allow KF to qualify for a US HS diploma and be eligible to play for an NCAA member institution. If so, passing the exam in Jamaica servers no purpose and shouldn't be the point at which his eligibility clock is started.

I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that with international student-athletes it isn't quite as straight forward as it is with kids from the USA.

 

[IMind]

He was 15 when he passed that exam. The chances that the NCAA would allow him to play in college after passing an exam as a 15 year old are minimal. He had no other choice. Remember Majok's troubles?

They f--ked with Okwandu too. He only played a half season of JUCO ball but took away two years of eligibility

 

[freescooter]

The NCAA rule is very clear. After all of this I looked it up and it isn't complicated. But it is based on the US concept of graduating from high school. So if you are asking for a waiver you need to give them reason to understand why your situation is different. It isn't automatic. You need to provide a reason for the waiver. That seems to be what UConn is doing. My only wish is that they had started sooner. They should have known about this and how it applied and been prepared to apply for the waiver as soon as Facey signed his LOI.

 

[Rico444]

The NCAA rule is very clear. After all of this I looked it up and it isn't complicated. But it is based on the US concept of graduating from high school. So if you are asking for a waiver you need to give them reason to understand why your situation is different. It isn't automatic. You need to provide a reason for the waiver. That seems to be what UConn is doing. My only wish is that they had started sooner. They should have known about this and how it applied and been prepared to apply for the waiver as soon as Facey signed his LOI.

Based on what you read, do you think Facey will be reinstated with full eligibility?

 

[freescooter]

Ricco,
I have no idea. It basically falls on UConn to convince the NCAA that passing an exit exam in Jamaica is not comparable to graduating from an American high school. Seems to me getting an evaluation from his first US high school will be the key. Certainly the fact that he was 16 will help. I actually think, based on nothing, I might add, that this would have been a whole lot easier and cleaner if he had stayed at his original US school. That he transferred for basketball reasons will make the NCAA suspicious. If he lost any credits in the transfer, he'll really be screwed. Most seem to guess that he'll lose 1 year of eligibility but will not have to sit out.

 

[aceboon]

Ricco,
I have no idea. It basically falls on UConn to convince the NCAA that passing an exit exam in Jamaica is not comparable to graduating from an American high school. Seems to me getting an evaluation from his first US high school will be the key. Certainly the fact that he was 16 will help. I actually think, based on nothing, I might add, that this would have been a whole lot easier and cleaner if he had stayed at his original US school. That he transferred for basketball reasons will make the NCAA suspicious. If he lost any credits in the transfer, he'll really be screwed. Most seem to guess that he'll lose 1 year of eligibility but will not have to sit out.

Transferring for basketball reasons really shouldn't be relevant, that is the nature of HS/Prep ball these days, AO & Jamal Coombs-McDaniel went to like 3 diff high schools trying to find the right fit. The bigger issue is whether he was placed in the right grade level, or whether these shools placed him a graduating year later than what he should have for their own personal gain...and I think this might have happened.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

My understanding is that he would not have qualified for an American university at the time he left Jamaica, so it shouldn't be that much of a task to convince the NCAA that passing whatever test he passed is not the same as graduating from an accredited American high school. From the mouths of the NCAA the purpose of this rule is to "encourage academic readiness." It seems asinine to me that he could potentially lose eligibility over this.

As an aside, I've worked on appellate matters tangentially involving the NCAA and, while Freescooter rubs his hands together gleefully at another excuse to blame Ollie, I haven't seen anything to indicate that UConn was at all dilatory in addressing this, and I would bet that the 11th hour nature of this is due more to the NCAA's wheels turning at a glacial pace. "Quite frankly," I'm shocked they didn't wait until the night before the Maryland game.

 

[selles]

The NCAA rule is very clear. After all of this I looked it up and it isn't complicated. But it is based on the US concept of graduating from high school. So if you are asking for a waiver you need to give them reason to understand why your situation is different. It isn't automatic. You need to provide a reason for the waiver. That seems to be what UConn is doing. My only wish is that they had started sooner. They should have known about this and how it applied and been prepared to apply for the waiver as soon as Facey signed his LOI.

I posted this link in an earlier thread but here it is again:

http://www.hoopsfix.com/2012/01/ncaa-gets-british-education-system-wrong/

Now. If it's true, as claimed by this article, that the NCAA focuses on a test taken by 15 and 16 year olds in British educational systems and uses that as a bright line rule to determine initial "graduation" for purposes of determining delayed enrollment penalties...well that's utterly ridiculous. It's utterly counter-intuitive and it's egregiously unfair.

And freescooter, stop getting your rocks off on the concept that Facey came to the US for basketball. How many major D-1 prospects, whether foreign or domestic, don't make basketball the major factor in their schooling decisions? Don't try to paint Facey as some mercenary, he's a normal kid with exceptional basketball talent.

 

[freescooter]

My understanding is that he would not have qualified for an American university at the time he left Jamaica, so it shouldn't be that much of a task to convince the NCAA that passing whatever test he passed is not the same as graduating from an accredited American high school. From the mouths of the NCAA the purpose of this rule is to "encourage academic readiness." It seems asinine to me that he could potentially lose eligibility over this.

As an aside, I've worked on appellate matters tangentially involving the NCAA and, while Freescooter rubs his hands together gleefully at another excuse to blame Ollie, I haven't seen anything to indicate that UConn was at all dilatory in addressing this, and I would bet that the 11th hour nature of this is due more to the NCAA's wheels turning at a glacial pace. "Quite frankly," I'm shocked they didn't wait until the night before the Maryland game.

In fact, I didn't blame Ollie. I was blaming the UConn athletic department, which has time and again been slow to anticipate the NCAA's moves and needs. We bring in lots of international players and yet we have constant problems with this stuff that other places don't have. that leads me to think that there is something wrong in our house.

 

[freescooter]

I posted this link in an earlier thread but here it is again:

http://www.hoopsfix.com/2012/01/ncaa-gets-british-education-system-wrong/

Now. If it's true, as claimed by this article, that the NCAA focuses on a test taken by 15 and 16 year olds in British educational systems and uses that as a bright line rule to determine initial "graduation" for purposes of determining delayed enrollment penalties...well that's utterly ridiculous. It's utterly counter-intuitive and it's egregiously unfair.

And freescooter, stop getting your rocks off on the concept that Facey came to the US for basketball. How many major D-1 prospects, whether foreign or domestic, don't make basketball the major factor in their schooling decisions? Don't try to paint Facey as some mercenary, he's a normal kid with exceptional basketball talent.

Again, since you clearly don't or can't read, the NCAA rules are written for the kid from West Hartford. Probably 98% of the cases coming through the system are kids who were educated in the USA and reviewing their eligibility is easy. Once in a while you have a Nate Miles who went to it seemed like 80 schools in 50 states over 4 years, but for the most part it is pretty straight forward. The Canadian system is fairly similar apparently, and as a result Canadians have few problems. You can go to the NCAA Eligibility Center and pull up a list of Canadian High Schools and classes to see if they qualify as "core" courses under the NCAA rules, too. But when you get into "different" systems, decisions have to be made on a case by case basis. You have less access to class information, less knowledge of the requirements, potentially language barriers, though not in this case. My point that he came for "basketball purposes" is relevant because that is what the issue is about. Did he extend his high school career to improve as a basketball player or did he do it because he wasn't academically qualified to graduate? If Facey came to LI Lutheran because his father got transferred to Long Island, then it is a much easier case, I think. He moved here, enrolled in high school and the high school determined he was academically a sophomore. But when he comes primarily for basketball, it raises another flag. did the school determine he was a sophomore or did the coach do that? Same with the transfer. If he finishes his Jr year at School X and transferred to School Y and repeats his Jr year, was that because he needed to improve academics, or because the coach though he needed another year to improve his putbacks? When you combine all the stuff, the NCAA did what was easiest for them and ruled the way it did. Now there is an opportunity to give them the information about his earlier schooling in Jamaica, the decisions made by school officials at his 2 high schools and make a better determination.

 

[ctchamps]

In fact, I didn't blame Ollie. I was blaming the UConn athletic department, which has time and again been slow to anticipate the NCAA's moves and needs. We bring in lots of international players and yet we have constant problems with this stuff that other places don't have. that leads me to think that there is something wrong in our house.

Valid complaint. However, this was a transitional situation. Facey was recruited around the time things change with the AD department. Should that department have made sure all the i's were crossed and the t's dotted. Absolutely. They made a mistake. But what I like about SH and WM is they take steps to try and reduce the mistakes. The hire of Angie Cretors is the step that makes your arguments moot.