Golden age?

[Husky68]

So many great players, hard to count for 1960 MLB.

4.	Hank Aaron	Milwaukee Braves	OF
6.	Joe Adcock	Milwaukee Braves	1B
Ed Bailey	Cincinnati Reds	C	Did Not Play
5.	Ernie Banks	Chicago Cubs	SS
Ken Boyer	St. Louis Cardinals	3B
Bob Buhl	Milwaukee Braves	P
Smoky Burgess	Pittsburgh Pirates	C
Orlando Cepeda	San Francisco Giants	OF
Roberto Clemente	Pittsburgh Pirates	OF
8.	Del Crandall	Milwaukee Braves	C
Roy Face	Pittsburgh Pirates	P
9.	Bob Friend	Pittsburgh Pirates	P	Starting Pitcher
Dick Groat	Pittsburgh Pirates	SS
Bill Henry	Cincinnati Reds	P	Did Not Pitch
Larry Jackson	St. Louis Cardinals	P	Did Not Pitch
Norm Larker	Los Angeles Dodgers	1B
Vern Law	Pittsburgh Pirates	P
3.	Eddie Mathews	Milwaukee Braves	3B
1.	Willie Mays	San Francisco Giants	OF
7.	Bill Mazeroski	Pittsburgh Pirates	2B
Mike McCormick	San Francisco Giants	P
Lindy McDaniel	St. Louis Cardinals	P
Stan Musial	St. Louis Cardinals	OF
Charlie Neal	Los Angeles Dodgers	2B
Vada Pinson	Cincinnati Reds	OF
Johnny Podres	Los Angeles Dodgers	P	Did Not Pitch
2.	Bob Skinner	Pittsburgh Pirates	OF
Tony Taylor	Philadelphia Phillies	2B
Bill White	St. Louis Cardinals	1B
Stan Williams	Los Angeles Dodgers	P	Did Not Pitch

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #1​

National League All-Star Squad​

[/td]​

[td]

Lineup​

[/td][td]

Name​

[/td][td]

Team​

[/td][td]

Position​

[/td][td]

Notes​

[/td]​

[td]

BOLD = Manager / player / coach choice to start the game.​

[/td]​

Luis Aparcio	Chicago White Sox	SS
Gary Bell	Cleveland Indians	P
6.	Yogi Berra	New York Yankees	C
Jim Coates	New York Yankees	P
Bud Daley	Kansas City Athletics	P
Chuck Estrada	Baltimore Orioles	P
Whitey Ford	New York Yankees	P	Did Not Pitch
Nellie Fox	Chicago White Sox	2B
Jim Gentile	Baltimore Orioles	1B
8.	Ron Hansen	Baltimore Orioles	SS
Elston Howard	New York Yankees	C
Al Kaline	Detroit Tigers	OF
Harvey Kuenn	Cleveland Indians	OF
Frank Lary	Detroit Tigers	P
Jim Lemon	Washington Senators	OF	Replaced Pascual
Sherm Lollar	Chicago White Sox	C
2.	Frank Malzone	Boston Red Sox	3B
4.	Mickey Mantle	New York Yankees	OF
3.	Roger Maris	New York Yankees	OF
1.	Minnie Minoso	Chicago White Sox	OF
9.	Bill Monbouquette	Boston Red Sox	P	Starting Pitcher
Camilo Pascual	Washington Senators	P	Replaced - Injury
Vic Power	Cleveland Indians	1B	Did Not Play
Brooks Robinson	Baltimore Orioles	3B
7.	Pete Runnels	Boston Red Sox	2B
5.	Bill Skowron	New York Yankees	1B
Al Smith	Chicago White Sox	OF
Gerry Staley	Chicago White Sox	P	Did Not Pitch
Dick Stigman	Cleveland Indians	P	Did Not Pitch
Ted Williams	Boston Red Sox	OF
Early Wynn	Chicago White Sox	P	Did Not Pitch

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #1​

American League All-Star Squad​

[/td]​

[td]

Lineup​

[/td][td]

Name​

[/td][td]

Team​

[/td][td]

Position​

[/td][td]

Notes​

[/td]​

[td]

BOLD = Manager / player / coach choice to start the game.​

[/td]​

Game Number	29
Date / Box Score	07-13-1960
Location	Yankee Stadium
Attendance	38,362
M.V.P. Award	Not Awarded Until 1962
Starting Pitchers	Whitey Ford	Vern Law
Managers	Al Lopez	Walt Alston
Coaches	Tony Cuccinello	Solly Hemus
Don Gutteridge	Fred Hutchinson

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #2​

1960 All-Star Game #2 Official Program
The 1960 Midsummer Classic At-A-Glance​

[/td]​

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #2 Fast Facts​

[/td]​

[td]

League Items​

[/td][td]

A.L.​

[/td][td]

N.L.​

[/td]​

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #2 Fast Facts​

[/td]​

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Not reading what the old heads need to say in this thread and causing myself undo stress.

The answer is simple to me. The talent level, skill and athleticism are all better than every before. Better training, S&C, analytics, and a bigger pool of players to draw from internationally have all made that possible.

Golden age? Depends how you define it. The league is certainly not more watchable despite the high level of play. Outside of UConn alum and the Celts I get pretty bored watchi g tje game. It's too expensive for your average fan to watch. Young people only watch highlights.

I'm not sure I follow your post.

It seems like you initially dismiss the opinion of people preferring basketball from 30 years only to conclude by saying the game isn't as watchable today?

 

[Deepster]

NBA players now aren't bigger, stronger, faster, don't jump higher than the players in the 90's and 2000's.

Even if they were, that doesn’t equate to better basketball. The Bird era Celts, Duncans Spurs, the Malone/Stockton Jazz. All played great team basketball that I’d put over anything on the court today.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I'm not sure I follow your post.

It seems like you initially dismiss the opinion of people preferring basketball from 30 years only to conclude by saying the game isn't as watchable today?

I think his point was that better quality of play does not necessarily mean a better viewing product for the average fan. NBA as probably the most obvious example, just unquestionably a higher level of play now than historically. That said, I’m very open to people just preferring a different style of play even if we know that’s not the analytically optimal style.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Even if they were, that doesn’t equate to better basketball. The Bird era Celts, Duncans Spurs, the Malone/Stockton Jazz. All played great team basketball that I’d put over anything on the court today.

I agree. I dont watch sports to see the heights of athleticism necessarily, nor do I listen to music to hear an 8 octave singer.

Musicians have gotten technically better. Advances in technology have made anything possible. But NOBODY would call the 2010s the Golden Age of music.

Malcolm Gladwell talks about the Heinz ketchup phenomenon. He says that newer ketchups have food science and more advanced techniques at their disposal but you cant touch Heinz Ketchup.

Super Mario Bros and Zelda look horrible compared to today's games but its hard to argue that this age of video games was better than the Nintendo era.

For whatever reason, maybe the way the game has changed, but I'll keep it simple- it was way more fun to watch Bird than it is to watch Wemby.

 

[TheHorde]

I agree with the posts that mentioned that this would break down between old school and new school NBA, and that proponents of each won’t give an inch. I’d argue that today’s NBA has the best athletes and best shooting it’s ever had, while saying I think early to mid 80s and 90s NBA was the golden age for me.

 

[RuffRuff]

I agree. I dont watch sports to see the heights of athleticism necessarily, nor do I listen to music to hear an 8 octave singer.

Musicians have gotten technically better. Advances in technology have made that possible. But NOBODY would call the 2010s the Golden Age of music.

Malcolm Gladwell talks about the Heinz ketchup phenomenon. He says that newer ketchups have food science and more advanced techniques at their disposal but you cant touch Heinz Ketchup.

Super Mario Bros and Zelda look horrible compared to today's games but its hard to argue that this age of video games was better than the Nintendo era. Mario is a universe. An entity.

For whatever reason, maybe the way the game has changed, but I'll keep it simple- it was way more fun to watch Bird than it is to watch Wemby.

It’s the personality profiles. Players back then just played with more moxy, edge, hate in their veins for the competition. They all had something to prove. In part it’s why C Clark is so popular, she plays with that kind of fire.

 

[boog204]

I'm biased because it was MY golden age, but I think pretty much all sports were better in the 80s and 90s, and really almost all aspects of existence, too. I have zero frame of reference to decades before, but I am eternally grateful I grew up in the era that I did.

 

[cullaville]

Professional Pickleball has never been better! 😎

don't forget corn hole and axe throwing

 

[TheHorde]

Even if they were, that doesn’t equate to better basketball. The Bird era Celts, Duncans Spurs, the Malone/Stockton Jazz. All played great team basketball that I’d put over anything on the court today.

The Magic Johnson led Showtime Lakers too

 

[Jumpman62114]

Taking skill level and style of play out of the equation, I do miss the 2005-early 2010s era when I got into the sport and there was more roster continuity and regional rivalries were more prevalent. Seeing players develop and their roles grow was one of the best parts of following a team. I’m glad Hurley still supports that to some extent but I dont think it will ever be the same with NIL.

 

[Deepster]

It’s the personality profiles. Players back then just played with more moxy, edge, hate in their veins for the competition. They all had something to prove. In part it’s why C Clark is so popular, she plays with that kind of fire.

Michael Cooper had a personal library of 150 games of Larry Bird tape. He took those videos on a family trip to Italy once and sat in his hotel room watching them nonstop because Bird had gotten the best of him the last time they played.

There's no one in the NBA right now who's even close to doing something like that.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

So many great players, hard to count for 1960 MLB.

4.	Hank Aaron	Milwaukee Braves	OF
6.	Joe Adcock	Milwaukee Braves	1B
Ed Bailey	Cincinnati Reds	C	Did Not Play
5.	Ernie Banks	Chicago Cubs	SS
Ken Boyer	St. Louis Cardinals	3B
Bob Buhl	Milwaukee Braves	P
Smoky Burgess	Pittsburgh Pirates	C
Orlando Cepeda	San Francisco Giants	OF
Roberto Clemente	Pittsburgh Pirates	OF
8.	Del Crandall	Milwaukee Braves	C
Roy Face	Pittsburgh Pirates	P
9.	Bob Friend	Pittsburgh Pirates	P	Starting Pitcher
Dick Groat	Pittsburgh Pirates	SS
Bill Henry	Cincinnati Reds	P	Did Not Pitch
Larry Jackson	St. Louis Cardinals	P	Did Not Pitch
Norm Larker	Los Angeles Dodgers	1B
Vern Law	Pittsburgh Pirates	P
3.	Eddie Mathews	Milwaukee Braves	3B
1.	Willie Mays	San Francisco Giants	OF
7.	Bill Mazeroski	Pittsburgh Pirates	2B
Mike McCormick	San Francisco Giants	P
Lindy McDaniel	St. Louis Cardinals	P
Stan Musial	St. Louis Cardinals	OF
Charlie Neal	Los Angeles Dodgers	2B
Vada Pinson	Cincinnati Reds	OF
Johnny Podres	Los Angeles Dodgers	P	Did Not Pitch
2.	Bob Skinner	Pittsburgh Pirates	OF
Tony Taylor	Philadelphia Phillies	2B
Bill White	St. Louis Cardinals	1B
Stan Williams	Los Angeles Dodgers	P	Did Not Pitch

[td]
​

1960 All-Star Game #1​

National League All-Star Squad

[/td]

[td]

Lineup​

[/td][td]

Name​

[/td][td]

Team​

[/td][td]

Position​

[/td][td]

Notes​

[/td]

[td]

BOLD = Manager / player / coach choice to start the game.​

[/td]​

Luis Aparcio	Chicago White Sox	SS
Gary Bell	Cleveland Indians	P
6.	Yogi Berra	New York Yankees	C
Jim Coates	New York Yankees	P
Bud Daley	Kansas City Athletics	P
Chuck Estrada	Baltimore Orioles	P
Whitey Ford	New York Yankees	P	Did Not Pitch
Nellie Fox	Chicago White Sox	2B
Jim Gentile	Baltimore Orioles	1B
8.	Ron Hansen	Baltimore Orioles	SS
Elston Howard	New York Yankees	C
Al Kaline	Detroit Tigers	OF
Harvey Kuenn	Cleveland Indians	OF
Frank Lary	Detroit Tigers	P
Jim Lemon	Washington Senators	OF	Replaced Pascual
Sherm Lollar	Chicago White Sox	C
2.	Frank Malzone	Boston Red Sox	3B
4.	Mickey Mantle	New York Yankees	OF
3.	Roger Maris	New York Yankees	OF
1.	Minnie Minoso	Chicago White Sox	OF
9.	Bill Monbouquette	Boston Red Sox	P	Starting Pitcher
Camilo Pascual	Washington Senators	P	Replaced - Injury
Vic Power	Cleveland Indians	1B	Did Not Play
Brooks Robinson	Baltimore Orioles	3B
7.	Pete Runnels	Boston Red Sox	2B
5.	Bill Skowron	New York Yankees	1B
Al Smith	Chicago White Sox	OF
Gerry Staley	Chicago White Sox	P	Did Not Pitch
Dick Stigman	Cleveland Indians	P	Did Not Pitch
Ted Williams	Boston Red Sox	OF
Early Wynn	Chicago White Sox	P	Did Not Pitch

[td]
​

1960 All-Star Game #1​

American League All-Star Squad

[/td]

[td]

Lineup​

[/td][td]

Name​

[/td][td]

Team​

[/td][td]

Position​

[/td][td]

Notes​

[/td]

[td]

BOLD = Manager / player / coach choice to start the game.​

[/td]​

Game Number	29
Date / Box Score	07-13-1960
Location	Yankee Stadium
Attendance	38,362
M.V.P. Award	Not Awarded Until 1962
Starting Pitchers	Whitey Ford	Vern Law
Managers	Al Lopez	Walt Alston
Coaches	Tony Cuccinello	Solly Hemus
Don Gutteridge	Fred Hutchinson

[td]
​

1960 All-Star Game #2​

1960 All-Star Game #2 Official Program

The 1960 Midsummer Classic At-A-Glance

[/td]

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #2 Fast Facts​

[/td]

[td]

League Items​

[/td][td]

A.L.​

[/td][td]

N.L.​

[/td]

[td]

1960 All-Star Game #2 Fast Facts​

[/td]​

Lost interest in the all-star game after the fans got the vote. 60's were great mlb years.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Super Mario Bros and Zelda look horrible compared to today's games but it’s hard to argue that this age of video games was better than the Nintendo era.

Oh man, I would have agreed with you until I ignored my buddy’s warnings and fired up golden eye for the first time in 20+ years. Woof. What a dog of a game on all levels. Video games today are MASSIVELY better.

 

[HW611]

Oh man, I would have agreed with you until I ignored my buddy’s warnings and fired up golden eye for the first time in 20+ years. Woof. What a dog of a game on all levels. Video games today are MASSIVELY better.

Idk what video game today is beating Halo 3

 

[CardiacAndre7]

I'm biased because it was MY golden age, but I think pretty much all sports were better in the 80s and 90s, and really almost all aspects of existence, too. I have zero frame of reference to decades before, but I am eternally grateful I grew up in the era that I did.

I think that’s what people are getting lost in. That’s when you fell in love with the sport and that’s when the emotional attachment grew.

 

[boog204]

I think that’s what people are getting lost in. That’s when you fell in love with the sport and that’s when the emotional attachment grew.

Of course... I mean if I hear the intro song to "This Week in Baseball" I get emotional. When CBB brought back to the NBA theme song from the 80s I got all the feels.

That being said, I did like the style of baseball of the 80s and 90s moreso than today. Basketball players are more overall talented athletically today, but I personally preferred the 80s/early 90s style more.

 

[gars44]

Quality is up, personality is down.

True, but the problem with "personality" is the more you get of it the less you like it.

 

[superjohn]

Even if they were, that doesn’t equate to better basketball.

They're not though...yet people repeat it all the time and then there's the whole "exercise science" "science based training" nonsense. The way the game is played and reffed is completely different but the players simply aren't bigger, stronger, faster, don't jump higher.

The average player height and weight now is 6'7 215 lbs. These are the average height and weight in the 90's and 2000's...

 

[superjohn]

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Of course... I mean if I hear the intro song to "This Week in Baseball" I get emotional. When CBB brought back to the NBA theme song from the 80s I got all the feels.

That being said, I did like the style of baseball of the 80s and 90s moreso than today. Basketball players are more overall talented athletically today, but I personally preferred the 80s/early 90s style more.

Sure, I can’t disagree with that. I wasn’t insinuating in my posts that today is the golden age in ball, I understand the 80’s and 90’s had some great rivalries and players, and today’s game isn’t for everyone. (I think the Cavs-Warriors was pretty sweet also)

But to your other point, I think people arguing the skill and talent depth today isn’t the best are just flat wrong.

 

[UConnTrumbull]

Maybe I’ll be wrong about this down the line but I don’t think ANY sport is currently in its golden era except women’s basketball. The sport has never been more popular with as many rivalries and player drama. Fan interest is waaay up both TV-wise and at the ticket office.

 

[gars44]

I think that’s what people are getting lost in. That’s when you fell in love with the sport and that’s when the emotional attachment grew.

so true. What's better than Bird/Magic? Celtics/Lakers? Throw in some Chicago Bulls. Knicks. Has nothing to do with anything else but when did you fall in love with it . . .

 

[HW611]

I think that’s what people are getting lost in. That’s when you fell in love with the sport and that’s when the emotional attachment grew.

But when you look at the All American lists today and compare them to the eras being talked about, would you say the All American lists today are better?

Even if we look at say, 2009.

Blake Griffin was averaging 23 PPG and 14 rebounds while making highlight reels every night.

Steph was averaging 28 as one of the best shows in college hoops.

Tyler Hansborough was averaging a little over 20 and 8 (he had a better junior year).

James Harden was averaging almost 21… the only player who didn’t score at least 20 a game was Blair.

The POY award was between a freshman who averaged 19 and 7 and a 6th year senior who averaged 19 and 10.

I’m not sure what measure is being used to say the 2025 year was better than that 2009 year.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

View attachment 112792View attachment 112793

Again, you’re really stuck on this. Maybe players aren’t bigger, I know PGs specifically ARE bigger, but whatever, have that one. Stronger yeah probably not, but brute force isn’t emphasized in this league like it was back then. Plenty of guys in that era were on rosters mainly for strength and enforcement, those guys would be playing in Europe now.

Players are 100% faster and quicker and more skilled though. The top end athletes are probably the same numbers wise, for example David Thompson and Keon Johnson have the same record max vert. But, the depth of athleticism is higher. There are more tier 1 God-Level athletes than there were, and there are less below average athletes.

 

[Waquoit]

I prefer when the average NBA score was 80-76 not 125-120

I think one's memory sometimes forgets how bad things were in the past. Those scores came from Rileyball. Those were terrible games to watch.

 

[superjohn]

Again, you’re really stuck on this. Maybe players aren’t bigger, I know PGs specifically ARE bigger, but whatever, have that one. Stronger yeah probably not, but brute force isn’t emphasized in this league like it was back then. Plenty of guys in that era were on rosters mainly for strength and enforcement, those guys would be playing in Europe now.

Players are 100% faster and quicker and more skilled though. The top end athletes are probably the same numbers wise, for example David Thompson and Keon Johnson have the same record max vert. But, the depth of athleticism is higher. There are more tier 1 God-Level athletes than there were, and there are less below average athletes.

I'm stuck on it because it's untrue and it gets repeated over and over.

Back up that players are 100% faster and quicker.

 

[Waquoit]

Michael Cooper had a personal library of 150 games of Larry Bird tape. He took those videos on a family trip to Italy once and sat in his hotel room watching them nonstop because Bird had gotten the best of him the last time they played.

There's no one in the NBA right now who's even close to doing something like that.

Maybe not but if you are trying to say that players in the past worked harder at their game than they do now, I completely disagree. Cooper was an outlier, everybody works overtime today.

 

[Waquoit]

I'm stuck on it because it's untrue and it gets repeated over and over.

Back up that players are 100% faster and quicker.

So what? Players today are much more skilled now than ever. Skill trumps athleticism.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

But when you look at the All American lists today and compare them to the eras being talked about, would you say the All American lists today are better?

Even if we look at say, 2009.

Blake Griffin was averaging 23 PPG and 14 rebounds while making highlight reels every night.

Steph was averaging 28 as one of the best shows in college hoops.

Tyler Hansborough was averaging a little over 20 and 8 (he had a better junior year).

James Harden was averaging almost 21… the only player who didn’t score at least 20 a game was Blair.

The POY award was between a freshman who averaged 19 and 7 and a 6th year senior who averaged 19 and 10.

I’m not sure what measure is being used to say the 2025 year was better than that 2009 year.

I didn’t say anything about College ball. In fact, my argument was that the last 20 years were the golden era.

Either way, numbers are like that because teams often had 1 star. Teams are deeper now and numbers are spread out.