OT: GOAT of all GOATs

[Chin Diesel]

Tiger or MJ, but gotta go with Tiger. Nobody was as dominant as Tiger in their given sport, what he did will never be touched.

There was a time when the difference between him and the number 2 ranked player in the world rankings was compared to the number 2 ranked player in the world to a guy ranked 1000. That’s how much better he was than everyone else. Lol

There are so many other countless stats that just don’t even make sense that he did

The dilemma with Tiger v. Jack for dominance is Jack took out Arnie, Player, Trevino, Watson and several second-tier hall of fame golfers in their prime (Miller, Floyd and a few others). Tiger never had that level of talent chasing him. Jack's quantity of second place finishes to go with his wins is an incredible accomplishment as well. That said I think peak Tiger from age 25-35 is probably a bit better than peak Jack. Of course Jack had to hit marshmallows using a metal shaft and wooden drivers.

For team sports put me in team MJ and Gretzky. As @superjohn mentioned, many of us getting old enough and we are far enough from MJ's prime where we are forgetting how dominant he was as a player.

Individual sports for me would come down to Tiger, Jack, Serena, Bolt or Phelps for their dominance over extended periods of time. I've already stated why I'm in the Bolt camp.

 

[huskyfan224]

The dilemma with Tiger v. Jack for dominance is Jack took out Arnie, Player, Trevino, Watson and several second-tier hall of fame golfers in their prime (Miller, Floyd and a few others). Tiger never had that level of talent chasing him. Jack's quantity of second place finishes to go with his wins is an incredible accomplishment as well. That said I think peak Tiger from age 25-35 is probably a bit better than peak Jack. Of course Jack had to hit marshmallows using a metal shaft and wooden drivers.

For team sports put me in team MJ and Gretzky. As @superjohn mentioned, many of us getting old enough and we are far enough from MJ's prime where we are forgetting how dominant he was as a player.

Individual sports for me would come down to Tiger, Jack, Serena, Bolt or Phelps for their dominance over extended periods of time. I've already stated why I'm in the Bolt camp.

Tiger Turns 44: Woods' 44 Greatest Statistics - 15th Club

Tiger Woods turns 44 years old on December 30. This is the first birthday for Woods as the reigning Masters champion since…

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I love Jack, but the game/technology changed quite a bit and Tiger was a reason why. If Jack had that he would most certainly be in contention and get his fair share of wins and be a factor, but Tiger is just more talented. TIger may not have had some of the bigger names like you mentioned, but the depth and having anyone win on a given week was more prominent 20 ish years ago than it was back in the 60s

 

[Chin Diesel]

Tiger Turns 44: Woods' 44 Greatest Statistics - 15th Club

Tiger Woods turns 44 years old on December 30. This is the first birthday for Woods as the reigning Masters champion since…

www.15thclub.com

I love Jack, but the game/technology changed quite a bit and Tiger was a reason why. If Jack had that he would most certainly be in contention and get his fair share of wins and be a factor, but Tiger is just more talented. TIger may not have had some of the bigger names like you mentioned, but the depth and having anyone win on a given week was more prominent 20 ish years ago than it was back in the 60s

There were metal woods, square grooves for wedges and plenty of technology changes between Jack and Tiger. I think Tiger's bigger contribution was fitness and swing speed.

All this goes back to my point about Bolt being the best. Carl Lewis may have won more medals because he competed in more events but Bolt is objectively a faster runner in a sport where the skill is speed.

 

[Kolumbo]

I think the great running backs and receivers are far better football players and athletes than quarterbacks so I'm going with the beast. You know.

Bo.

 

[Kolumbo]

That is why Bolt is the answer.

I love Bolt but the issue I have is he is more a freak of nature than a great athlete. 6'5" guys don't become track sprinters but he has the ability even with his height to get up to speed very quickly and with his stride it's game over. He does one thing better than anyone else but he can't be considered greater than athletes doing things which require far more skill. He should have at least learned to catch a football like Renaldo Nehemiah.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I love Bolt but the issue I have is he is more a freak of nature than a great athlete. 6'5" guys don't become track sprinters but he has the ability even with his height to get up to speed very quickly and with his stride it's game over. He does one thing better than anyone else but he can't be considered greater than athletes doing things which require far more skill. He should have at least learned to catch a football like Renaldo Nehemiah.

Fortunately GOAT doesn't mean greatest athlete of all-time. The GOAT is the greatest player in their field. GOAT of GOATs starts looking at how to compare dominance.

You have people on this thread who have voted for Ruth or Ali. No one thinks they were great athletes.

 

[Chasm64]

Wilt Chamberlain, Wayne Gretzky, Jim Thorpe, Michael Jordan, Mickey Mantle 1-5
Honorable mention: Babe Zaharias, Bo Jackson, Bobby Orr, Tom Brady, Lawrence Taylor

 

[Deadrody]

With Tom Brady’s recent retirement, I’ve seen this question come up several times in the media. Is Tom Brady the GOAT of all GOATs at their respective sport? I’ve put several other athletes I feel deserve to be mentioned as options, I probably missed a few- but I’m curious to see what the BY thinks. I also couldn’t pick among the 3 tennis greats so I included all of them.

Haven't read through the whole thing, but IMO, what holds MJ back from being better than Brady is letting his world class narcissism get between him and excellence. Both the ridiculous flirtation with baseball and the first temporary retirement detract from him being as good as he could have been. Tom Brady is the exact opposite. Singular focus on one and only one goal - winning.

Not to mention that Brady is the undisputed greatest player in all of NFL history. While I definitely put MJ at the top of the list in the NBA, you can't argue that other guys haven't had comparable team success, including Bill Russell and Lebron.

 

[Deadrody]

And I'll just leave this here... For all those complaining that a QB only plays half the game, there are 11 guys on offense, 11 on defense, etc... This is a guy commenting on a post at a Cowboys blog about their lack of success relative to the number of pro-bowl players on the team (Cowboys have 4 playoff wins - total - in the last 25 years, and 139 pro bowl appearances over that time)

In Tom Brady's six Super Bowl wins with the Patriots, the Patriots were ranked 6th, 12th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, and 4th in points scored. Aside from Tom Brady, do you know how many "Pro Bowl players" there were on the offensive side of the ball during those 6 seasons? The answer to that would be: 3. Troy Brown in 2001. None in 2003. Corey Dillon in 2004. Rob Gronkowski in 2014. None in 2016. None in 2018.

 

[Kolumbo]

Fortunately GOAT doesn't mean greatest athlete of all-time. The GOAT is the greatest player in their field. GOAT of GOATs starts looking at how to compare dominance.

You have people on this thread who have voted for Ruth or Ali. No one thinks they were great athletes.

Both Ali and Babe were tremendous athletes, no question. Baseball of all sports arguably requires the most skill. And Bolt wasn't a player. He was a runner. A freakish runner. I'd say Carl Lewis was a better, more successful track athlete.

Allison Stokke

In support of MJ, he did it all and far better than everyone else. Offense, defense, he literally willed his team to wins. He would have won on any team. I remember they were about to lose to the Jazz and he still found a way to strip the ball from Malone and then hit the winning basket.

Football players play half the game, at a snails pace, perhaps 15 minutes of actual action. brady owes at least 60% credit to the defense and special teams for his wins.

 

[superjohn]

Haven't read through the whole thing, but IMO, what holds MJ back from being better than Brady is letting his world class narcissism get between him and excellence. Both the ridiculous flirtation with baseball and the first temporary retirement detract from him being as good as he could have been. Tom Brady is the exact opposite. Singular focus on one and only one goal - winning.

Not to mention that Brady is the undisputed greatest player in all of NFL history. While I definitely put MJ at the top of the list in the NBA, you can't argue that other guys haven't had comparable team success, including Bill Russell and Lebron.

Narcissism? His dad who was his best friend was brutally murdered. He took 2 years off in the absolute prime of his career right after three peating to honor his dad's love of baseball and to take a break from the insanity of everything. He was the most popular person in the world and again his dad was just brutally murdered. No other athlete was under the microscope like him, the guy couldn't ever leave his hotel room without being mobbed. He wasn't chasing some ghost for titles, if he was he would probably have 10 of them. Holding it against him for retiring twice in his prime, especially after the murder of his father is a pretty strange take.

You can absolutely make a case for other football players being better than Brady and other basketball players being better than Jordan.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Both Ali and Babe were tremendous athletes, no question. Baseball of all sports arguably requires the most skill. And Bolt wasn't a player. He was a runner. A freakish runner. I'd say Carl Lewis was a better, more successful track athlete.

Allison Stokke

In support of MJ, he did it all and far better than everyone else. Offense, defense, he literally willed his team to wins. He would have won on any team. I remember they were about to lose to the Jazz and he still found a way to strip the ball from Malone and then hit the winning basket.

Football players play half the game, at a snails pace, perhaps 15 minutes of actual action. brady owes at least 60% credit to the defense and special teams for his wins.

Your confusing skill and athleticism. It's possible to have great skill without being a great athlete.

Which is the exact point I was responding to for this debate. GOAT doesn't mean greatest athlete; it is the person who has performed better than anyone else in their sport.

And no, Ali or Ruth weren't great athletes.

 

[Deepster]

Your confusing skill and athleticism. It's possible to have great skill without being a great athlete.

Which is the exact point I was responding to for this debate. GOAT doesn't mean greatest athlete; it is the person who has performed better than anyone else in their sport.

And no, Ali or Ruth weren't great athletes.

To be Ali's size and weight and to move with that footwork and have the power he did to knock out who he did? Laughable you don't think he's a great athlete.

 

[Kolumbo]

Your confusing skill and athleticism. It's possible to have great skill without being a great athlete.

Which is the exact point I was responding to for this debate. GOAT doesn't mean greatest athlete; it is the person who has performed better than anyone else in their sport.

And no, Ali or Ruth weren't great athletes.

No, I am not. GOATs need great skill and great athleticism. I don't particularly think running fast takes a great deal of skill. You have to master getting out of the blocks but that's about it, and you might even get lucky timing the gun perfectly. The best sprinter of all time simply doesn't belong in the conversation of all time overall GOATs. Your game literally lasts 10 seconds. That doesn't compare to anything, especially something like multiple 5-hour tennis matches during numerous tournaments.

Golf - Tiger may be very athletic and exceptionally skilled but we know there were some good golfers who were not particularly athletic. I remember a commentary following the Craig Stadler incident, something to the effect, a game where a towel is considered an aid is not a sport, and a player who needs to kneel on a towel is not an athlete. A game where there isn't any running at all is not GOAT worthy.

I have no idea how anyone would not consider Ali and Ruth great athletes. That's just wrong on every level.

 

[HuskylnSC]

The GOAT of GOATS isn't even on your list. The G of G won 7 NFL championships in 10 years. He started the championship game all 10 years in the league. He has the highest winning percentage of any starting quarterback at 81%. He holds the record for career yards per pass as 8.9. Until recently he held the record for most running touchdowns by a quarterback at 44. During his career he has led the league in every statistical category. He was an NFL head coach and his college coaching career was in Connecticut.

 

[Chin Diesel]

No, I am not. GOATs need great skill and great athleticism. I don't particularly think running fast takes a great deal of skill. You have to master getting out of the blocks but that's about it, and you might even get lucky timing the gun perfectly. The best sprinter of all time simply doesn't belong in the conversation of all time overall GOATs. Your game literally lasts 10 seconds. That doesn't compare to anything, especially something like multiple 5-hour tennis matches during numerous tournaments.

Golf - Tiger may be very athletic and exceptionally skilled but we know there were some good golfers who were not particularly athletic. I remember a commentary following the Craig Stadler incident, something to the effect, a game where a towel is considered an aid is not a sport, and a player who needs to kneel on a towel is not an athlete. A game where there isn't any running at all is not GOAT worthy.

I have no idea how anyone would not consider Ali and Ruth great athletes. That's just wrong on every level.

No they don't. Some get away with only one of those two, some have both but you really make yourself look foolish saying a GOAT needs to have great athleticism.

 

[Kolumbo]

No they don't. Some get away with only one of those two, some have both but you really make yourself look foolish saying a GOAT needs to have great athleticism.

This is crazy talk. We are talking sports. No one can come close to any kind of greatness without both, let alone GOAT level. If we are talking non-athletes, I'll go with a drummer, Neil Peart. Although one could argue that drumming itself at HOF level requires a great deal of skill and athleticism.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

I am confused. Are people really saying anybody that list lacks athleticism?

 

[Ratso]

Nadal is the greatest. He’s got no help, he’s alone on that court with one opponent who wants to kill him. golf , you sit and wait to see if somebody doesn’t drive it.

tennis is a solitary sport with your opponent attacking you. not having your caddie walking you to the next lane or whatever

 

[Marat]

Gretzkys individual scoring point total will never be broken. His streak of 200 pt seasons won't either. His 92 goal seasons - nobody has come close. His 40+ other records stand. There is a reason he is called the great one.

 

[Palatine]

Lawrence Taylor.

Brady is lucky he played after Taylor's career.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

When it is all said and done and if Fury can continue doing what he has done I do believe he will surpass Ali. Boxes and moves like a middleweight, and he talks the talk like the great Ali. He may get knocked down but the man always rises. Just watching him in the corner of the first Wilder fight yelling to himself "I am the Gypsy King" still pumps me up.

He is an interesting fighter,
To me his defeat of Klichco outboxing him and making him look bad in the process was more impressive. The last guy he beat had a huge punch and minimal boxing skills. Although getting off the floor in their first fight was as impressive as Ali getting up from the Frazier left hook in his comeback.
The thing about Jack Nicholas is he not only won more majors than anyone but he had more second place finishes in majors than anyone 19 - 7 of those in the Open. which isn’t surprising since he played against some of the greatest links players of all time so winning Opens wasn’t easy.
Tom Watson, Gary Player, Lee Trevino , and Seve all loved that type course. Watson might be the GOAT at that format. 5 wins almost won a 6th at 60.

 

[Madmannsucks]

Funny, Bill Russell not on list-11 titles as a player 1 as a coach...best rebounder and defender ever. Still averaged 15 a game and almost 5 assists a game-5 MVP's.
ELEVEN TITLES...I SAID ELEVEN.

 

[mauconnfan]

There were metal woods, square grooves for wedges and plenty of technology changes between Jack and Tiger. I think Tiger's bigger contribution was fitness and swing speed.

All this goes back to my point about Bolt being the best. Carl Lewis may have won more medals because he competed in more events but Bolt is objectively a faster runner in a sport where the skill is speed.

6800 yards compared to 7800 yard courses. 175 yard par 3s to 235.

All relative and Tigers percentage of wins considering he only played in the best tourneys with the best players in the and the fact the Europeans came, were real good...... it’s Tiger for me. There’s no one shooting 77 on Sunday and winning a major like Lon Hinkle during Tigers days.

 

[Conndog]

Not to mention that Brady is the undisputed greatest player in all of NFL history.

Undisputed? Could not disagree more. I guess your measuring stick is # of championships but in my opinion that isn't enough to declare someone as the greatest of all time, especially in a team sport.