Geno's players Rotation

[Javafan]

I admire and respect Geno's Philosophy and Discipline toward handling UCONN players practice and game time off and on the field. I understand his emphasis on practice as a guide post for the player in order to gain each and every player's playing time. Enough on this basic. I want to throw some other aspect as to how under that guideline we could achieve our OBJECTIVE when occasion warrants you to do otherwise. Let's talk about the OBJECTIVE.
A) to win NC
B) to win every game along the line on winning the A), as though it's icing on the cake.
I don't know about everyone on BY, and Geno for that matter, if we all agree A) is more important than B) then, sometime we have to sacrifice B) to get the A).
I urge to give the bench more playing time. If player X didn't have a decent practice or practices OR she is not capability-ready to sub in, yet for her playing position does present a good fit position wise, then, sub her in. The rational is to give your key(yet exhausted) player some breather, not only for that particular game but for the next game and beyond ! Otherwise, you are punishing those key players instead ! You want to save energy and full physical readiness for those key players. Remember , A) is more important than B).
I love UCONN for over 30 years in big part because of Geno. He is no doubt the greatest WBB head around. If he can be just flexible a little bit !

 

[MD#12Fan]

There's another variable to this that is never mentioned. Some players are great practice players and others are not. Some players are gamers and others are not. 4 possibilities: 1) great practice, great game (PB) 2) great practice, poor game 3) poor practice, great game
(not sure that possibility is ever considered at UConn unless by accident) and 4) poor practice, poor game (transfer?)
All of us as fans can relate to our own place on this continuum. I was a 2) in college. Late bloomer, too hyper to be effective in games, too much of a loose cannon skill wise- shooter/gunner, but consistent high effort in practice. Where are you?

 

[eebmg]

There's another variable to this that is never mentioned. Some players are great practice players and others are not. Some players are gamers and others are not. 4 possibilities: 1) great practice, great game (PB) 2) great practice, poor game 3) poor practice, great game
(not sure that possibility is ever considered at UConn unless by accident) and 4) poor practice, poor game (transfer?)
All of us as fans can relate to our own place on this continuum. I was a 2) in college. Late bloomer, too hyper to be effective in games, too much of a loose cannon skill wise- shooter/gunner, but consistent high effort in practice. Where are you?

Geno is very explicit about Category 3. He has said he never had a great player that does not practice great. I suppose you can have a poor practice player that plays better in the game but Geno would view that as the player not reaching their potential to go from good to great.

 

[Charliebball]

We've been over this time and time again........I'm pretty sure Ducharme would have played minimal minutes if not for the unfortunate injury situation.........perhaps that has opened Geno's eyes a little bit........as somebody wrote earlier, many recruits these days will not stick around if they don't get to play...........I'm not saying that those that practice poorly should get game time but the days of playing starters well into the fourth quarter with big leads should become a relic of the past when there's a hungry bench to play.....

 

[MD#12Fan]

Geno is very explicit about Category 3. He has said he never had a great player that does not practice great. I suppose you can have a poor practice player that plays better in the game but Geno would view that as the player not reaching their potential to go from good to great.

Good response!
Do you believe what "Geno feels" is correct? Is it AS correct as it was, say in the late 90's early 00's? In this moment of "crisis" has the surprising play of a few people, that otherwise would have gotten either less time or no time, changed your opinion on this?
Is everything in BY-Land carved in granite or do opinions change and ways of doing things change?

 

[Vowelguy]

 

[Vowelguy]

"Geno is a great coach ... other than all his core beliefs that are completely wrong."

 

[EricLA]

Here's my issue, and I'm sure some will dislike.

How is it that we look at box scores of numerous other top teams who routinely play 8-12 players in routs, many where bench players double digit minutes. But somehow UCONN is so unique that even in a blowout, the last 3-4 bench players will get a paltry 3-4 minutes at the end of a blowout?

Somehow other teams are able to get their players to practice well enough to play, but at UCONN they are not? Or Geno has standards that are so much higher than every other D1 coach that the end of the bench players simply cannot practice well enough to earn more than crumbs of minutes at the end of a game?

I am a HUGE Geno supporter. I've marveled at his ability to morph his philosophy over the years to adjust to the changing players, skill levels, talent, attitudes, etc. But I find it mystifying that literally every other top 20 team is able to get lots of PT for the bench in blowouts, but UCONN is unable to do that.

This will undoubtedly be an unpopular statement, but perhaps it explains why so may players ranked in the 10-50 range coming out of high school have left UCONN. I go back to something I said earlier - either Geno is recruiting the wrong kids (ie. ranked out of the top 10), or he's coaching them wrong, or his expectations are so astronomically high that it's impossible for them to pass muster. If they can't do enough right by his standards to earn PT in a blowout, then I don't blame them for bailing.

If I'm wrong, please tell me the logic in what Geno is doing and why it's not impacting all the players who have left? I get that many went to places and ended up starters, so I get that, but at the time they were at UCONN, their PT was miniscule, which I would imagine played a big part in their leaving.

 

[CocoHusky]

We've been over this time and time again........I'm pretty sure Ducharme would have played minimal minutes if not for the unfortunate injury situation.........perhaps that has opened Geno's eyes a little bit........as somebody wrote earlier, many recruits these days will not stick around if they don't get to play...........I'm not saying that those that practice poorly should get game time but the days of playing starters well into the fourth quarter with big leads should become a relic of the past when there's a hungry bench to play.....

Speaking of relics, perhaps what also needs to be debated openly is this concept of what constitutes "a big lead". Is it 15-20 points, 25, more? Stanford led South Carolina by 17 points at the start of the third quarter and the gap was closed to within 1 point before that quarter was over last night. UCONN bench players as a unit are not good enough to safely protected "a big lead". UCONN starters as a unit are not good enough to rescue games that should have been secured from jeopardy. This has probably been the UCONN reality since Stewie and company graduated. Having starters on the floor to close out games might be a necessity and not the luxury many envision. Times are a changing: Briana Pulido (a walkon) saw action in 28 of 40 , 32 of 39 and 27 of 38 games in her 3 seasons at UCONN. By sharp contrast Piath Gabriel (a recruited scholarship) player saw action in 22 of UCONN 30 games last season and has only appeared in 1 of 9 games so far this season.

 

[Vowelguy]

How is it that we look at box scores of numerous other top teams who routinely play 8-12 players in routs, many where bench players double digit minutes. But somehow UCONN is so unique that even in a blowout, the last 3-4 bench players will get a paltry 3-4 minutes at the end of a blowout?

Yes UConn is in fact quite unique.
27 Years: UConn 11 titles, Everyone Else 15 titles (1 non)

 

[EricLA]

Yes UConn is in fact quite unique.
27 Years: UConn 11 titles, Everyone Else 15 titles (1 non)

Sure, but no NC's in the past 4 years. Not even getting past the final 4 in the years the NC has been played.

SC, ND, Baylor, Cancelled, Stanford in that order. We weren't the favorites in the year it was canceled either. Geno is the best of all time hands down. I'm certainly well aware of all his accomplishments.

My question is - he's been able to adjust and change incredibly in the past as times/players have changed. Is it time for him to change again?

 

[JoePgh]

We've been over this time and time again........I'm pretty sure Ducharme would have played minimal minutes if not for the unfortunate injury situation.........perhaps that has opened Geno's eyes a little bit........as somebody wrote earlier, many recruits these days will not stick around if they don't get to play...........I'm not saying that those that practice poorly should get game time but the days of playing starters well into the fourth quarter with big leads should become a relic of the past when there's a hungry bench to play.....

Caroline Ducharme played quite significant minutes in the Notre Dame game in which Nika and Paige (except for 38 seconds) were both available. Doesn't that invalidate your "minimal minutes" theory?

Here's my issue, and I'm sure some will dislike.

Or Geno has standards that are so much higher than every other D1 coach that the end of the bench players simply cannot practice well enough to earn more than crumbs of minutes at the end of a game?

... perhaps it explains why so may players ranked in the 10-50 range coming out of high school have left UCONN. I go back to something I said earlier - either Geno is recruiting the wrong kids (ie. ranked out of the top 10), or he's coaching them wrong, or his expectations are so astronomically high that it's impossible for them to pass muster. If they can't do enough right by his standards to earn PT in a blowout, then I don't blame them for bailing.

If I'm wrong, please tell me the logic in what Geno is doing and why it's not impacting all the players who have left? I get that many went to places and ended up starters, so I get that, but at the time they were at UCONN, their PT was miniscule, which I would imagine played a big part in their leaving.

I think Geno's standards are rather clear: Bench players, if they want serious minutes, have to play well enough (and play within the system at both ends of the court) so that there is not a big dropoff in team performance when they are on the floor. In practice, that is a rather high standard -- apparently too high for those who have left or are leaving. But it was not too high for freshmen like KLS, Pheesa, Kia Nurse, Aaliyah Edwards, Nika Muhl, Stef Dolson, Anna Makurat, and Kelly Faris, not to mention superstars like Stewie, Paige, and Maya. Stef and Kelly were definitely in the 10-50 range as high school recruits, and yet they played mucho minutes as freshmen and throughout their careers.

And there have been some who played very little as freshmen but became important contributors in later years: Kiah Stokes, Gabby Williams, Moriah Jefferson, Crystal Dangerfield, and Saniya Chong come to mind. Going a little further back, Ketia Swanier and Mel Thomas would also be in that category.

I agree that players who are not getting significant minutes and see little prospect of that changing in the future will probably leave UConn, but is that a bad thing either for them or for UConn? Should we be fretting because Sadie Edwards, Courtney Ekmark, AEH, and Mikayla Coombs went on to become starters for P5 programs? They didn't set the world on fire at their new schools, so did we really miss anything by having them leave? Can you think of any player (other than EDD, which was a special situation -- nothing to do with playing time) whose performance after leaving UConn would make us as fans say, "If only she had stayed ..."? I can't.

 

[sun]

My question is - he's been able to adjust and change incredibly in the past as times/players have changed. Is it time for him to change again?

There haven't been many blowouts so far this year and the transfer portal is relatively new.
I'm sure that Geno will do whatever he thinks is best to help UConn and himself win post season games.
That's how he earns bonus money and preserves his reputation, and keeps media heat off himself, the program & his staff.

I think the number of injuries and defectors have opened his eyes this year.
He gets feedback from Coach Daley and his staff, and they must have some influence on his decisions.

If he's not happy with his bench he will bring in a needed transfer next year, I have no doubts about it.
I don't believe that he will let Paige's talent "window of opportunity" pass him by.

 

[maccca3232]

Geno and his coaching staff have taken their team to 13 consecutive Final 4's. Crazy stuff. He is not prefect, nobody is, but you can't argue with the results.

I agree with the idea he overplays his starters, which deprives the bench of playing time / experience, but he isn't going to suddenly change what's been working for so long. Having said that he is a smart guy and if someone can prove there is a better way to be more successful in the long run he would do it.

Given the finances and shortness of the collegiate season in comparison to professional leagues, especially NBA, does anyone have link to research / analytics for player efficiency based on playing time?

Generally in the NBA post season the rotations are shortened, which lends to shortened rotations being more successfully but not sustainable over longer periods. Note: The maximum number of playoff games is currently 28 games (best of 7 over 4 series), which is 110 games (82 regular + 28 post) where as college is 40 games max?

 

[Centerstream]

Sure, but no NC's in the past 4 years. Not even getting past the final 4 in the years the NC has been played.

SC, ND, Baylor, Cancelled, Stanford in that order. We weren't the favorites in the year it was canceled either. Geno is the best of all time hands down. I'm certainly well aware of all his accomplishments.

My question is - he's been able to adjust and change incredibly in the past as times/players have changed. Is it time for him to change again?

Please let me know how many consecutive these other teams have been in. Consecutive Elite 8s. Consecutive Sweet 16s. I am guessing that the only consecutive Big Dance rounds we aren't the leaders in is for Tournament appearances and the first two rounds.

This is excellence!!! Pure and simple. Why should he change?????

 

[Stymie]

I admire and respect Geno's Philosophy and Discipline toward handling UCONN players practice and game time off and on the field. I understand his emphasis on practice as a guide post for the player in order to gain each and every player's playing time. Enough on this basic. I want to throw some other aspect as to how under that guideline we could achieve our OBJECTIVE when occasion warrants you to do otherwise. Let's talk about the OBJECTIVE.
A) to win NC
B) to win every game along the line on winning the A), as though it's icing on the cake.
I don't know about everyone on BY, and Geno for that matter, if we all agree A) is more important than B) then, sometime we have to sacrifice B) to get the A).
I urge to give the bench more playing time. If player X didn't have a decent practice or practices OR she is not capability-ready to sub in, yet for her playing position does present a good fit position wise, then, sub her in. The rational is to give your key(yet exhausted) player some breather, not only for that particular game but for the next game and beyond ! Otherwise, you are punishing those key players instead ! You want to save energy and full aphysical readiness for those key players. Remember , A) is more important than B).
I love UCONN for over 30 years in big part because of Geno. He is no doubt the greatest WBB head around. If he can be just flexible a little bit !

I put forth a similar preposition, offering that I’d prefer, something like a 28-7 Record and winning the last game as opposed to 33-2 and maybe (probably) not in the name of down roster player development.
BY’ers would have none of it.
Be prepared for “incoming”:

 

[sun]

Given the finances and shortness of the collegiate season in comparison to professional leagues, especially NBA, does anyone have link to research / analytics for player efficiency based on playing time?

I'm not sure if there's any conclusive proof due to flawed methodology, but the fact that they're attaching devices to players to measure their jumping ability seems to point to fatigue as being a factor worth investigating.

There's also research about needed recovery time between games that are scheduled close together, such as 2 days apart.

(PDF) The Impact of Contextual Factors on Game Demands in Starting, Semiprofessional, Male Basketball Players

PDF | Purpose: To quantify and compare external and internal game workloads according to contextual factors (game outcome, game location, and... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

A 4-Year Profile of Game Demands in Elite Women's Division... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research

player position, and (c) game outcome (wins vs. losses). Female athletes (n = 6, mean 19.7 ± 1.5 years, at beginning of study) wore Catapult S5 units during 91.8% of games over a 4-year period. Average PlayerLoad, PlayerLoad per minute (PL·min−1), high inertial movement analysis (high-IMA), and...

journals.lww.com

 

[donalddoowop]

It is not just giving playing time when the lead is big, and Coco, I don't think anyone is talking about substituting in the third quarter when the lead is big. It is also taking a player out after one or two mistakes. Someone said DeBerry missed some defensive assignments, so she was removed. I believe the experience a player gets playing in a highly competitive game when the game is on the line is worth taking a chance on missed assignments, whether defensive or offensive. Starters miss those assignments. If NC are the most important thing to UConn, then prepare for it early by letting players play through their mistakes, especially when the team has players who are not producing to UConn level. DeBerry must have done something right at practice or she would not have been put in the game. Being a freshman, mistakes are going to be made. Maybe when conference games start, more time will be given to bench players.

 

[Stymie]

It is not just giving playing time when the lead is big, and Coco, I don't think anyone is talking about substituting in the third quarter when the lead is big. It is also taking a player out after one or two mistakes. Someone said DeBerry missed some defensive assignments, so she was removed. I believe the experience a player gets playing in a highly competitive game when the game is on the line is worth taking a chance on missed assignments, whether defensive or offensive. Starters miss those assignments. If NC are the most important thing to UConn, then prepare for it early by letting players play through their mistakes, especially when the team has players who are not producing to UConn level. DeBerry must have done something right at practice or she would not have been put in the game. Being a freshman, mistakes are going to be made. Maybe when conference games start, more time will be given to bench players.

Both of them?

 

[Charliebball]

Speaking of relics, perhaps what also needs to be debated openly is this concept of what constitutes "a big lead". Is it 15-20 points, 25, more? Stanford led South Carolina by 17 points at the start of the third quarter and the gap was closed to within 1 point before that quarter was over last night. UCONN bench players as a unit are not good enough to safely protected "a big lead". UCONN starters as a unit are not good enough to rescue games that should have been secured from jeopardy. This has probably been the UCONN reality since Stewie and company graduated. Having starters on the floor to close out games might be a necessity and not the luxury many envision. Times are a changing: Briana Pulido (a walkon) saw action in 28 of 40 , 32 of 39 and 27 of 38 games in her 3 seasons at UCONN. By sharp contrast Piath Gabriel (a recruited scholarship) player saw action in 22 of UCONN 30 games last season and has only appeared in 1 of 9 games so far this season.

I think a 17-point lead against South Carolina with four minutes to go is a heck of a lot different than a 17-point lead against Seton Hall...........you're right about times changing..........players that have potential that don't get a sniff of playing time can enter that transfer portal and be playing in their promised position the following year as easy as sending a text.......

 

[CocoHusky]

Sure, but no NC's in the past 4 years. Not even getting past the final 4 in the years the NC has been played.
SC, ND, Baylor, Cancelled, Stanford in that order. We weren't the favorites in the year it was canceled either. Geno is the best of all time hands down. I'm certainly well aware of all his accomplishments.
My question is - he's been able to adjust and change incredibly in the past as times/players have changed. Is it time for him to change again?

Geno will change and innovate as necessary with the times, the game and this new generation of players. What he will not do is compromise on a set of core principles. I fear we are at a major collision point with one of those core principles and this group of players. For two years now Geno has openly said that these players are "not responding to coaching". In the Louisville post game presser Geno said that "only Caroline from among the current team is listening" to the things he's telling them. There will be no compromise on Geno's part regarding the issue of players "listening". UCONN will have to get a new HC or Geno will have to get some new players. I'm betting on the latter.

 

[msf22b]

I refer to the usual boilerplate warning that is part and parcel of every investment advert:
Past performance is no indication of future earnings (wins in this case).

It is heartwarming that so many posters are avid followers of past UConn triumphs.
But as in the Dickens novella we are concerned here with Christmas future.

Eric, I can't promise you that Piath, or even Amari is going to play meaningful minutes this season, (Is there anyone else, I've forgotten)?

But I firmly suspect that come March, whomever, for the most part (my only qualifier) is now siting on the bench, including the walking and sitting wounded... will find themselves more prominently featured on the court.

And that some, now devouring minutes on the court, will be more prominently featured on the bench.

Which will stimulate a discussion of a different kind

And that my anticipated roster realignment will not be in any way due to any change in philosophy by Geno, but rather the result of a simple case of self-preservation:

With all of his titles, if the most skilled and/or competitive players (and it will be obvious who they are) are not on he court at crunch time, he'll be run out of town, 13 consecutive final-4's or not.

And Coach Geno is a very perceptive in such matters.

 

[CocoHusky]

It is not just giving playing time when the lead is big, and Coco, I don't think anyone is talking about substituting in the third quarter when the lead is big. It is also taking a player out after one or two mistakes. Someone said DeBerry missed some defensive assignments, so she was removed. I believe the experience a player gets playing in a highly competitive game when the game is on the line is worth taking a chance on missed assignments, whether defensive or offensive. Starters miss those assignments. If NC are the most important thing to UConn, then prepare for it early by letting players play through their mistakes, especially when the team has players who are not producing to UConn level. DeBerry must have done something right at practice or she would not have been put in the game. Being a freshman, mistakes are going to be made. Maybe when conference games start, more time will be given to bench players.

You can't have it both ways AKA You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to leave players on the floor as an experiment to "work through their mistakes" then you can't then hold Geno accountable for winning the game.
Gabby Williams was yanked from a championship game against ND because she missed an assignment and was clearly too jacked up. Caroline was yanked form a game because she was turning over the ball and helping to dig a hole for UCONN.

I don't know what you guys want from Geno! Ya'll need to stop going off half cocked the half ( if that) part being limited to what you see on TV. It was @HuskyNan who first correctly pointed out that Amari missed assignments. Here something to consider- I would bet you a cold beer Amari missed that same assignment in practice or shoot around or in the scout for this game. Working through mistakes is why you practice. Playing games is where you get an opportunity to prove that you have worked through mistakes. There shouldn't be anything experimental once the clock is running otherwise you wouldn't need someone to keep score.

 

[BBallF]

Here's my issue, and I'm sure some will dislike.

How is it that we look at box scores of numerous other top teams who routinely play 8-12 players in routs, many where bench players double digit minutes. But somehow UCONN is so unique that even in a blowout, the last 3-4 bench players will get a paltry 3-4 minutes at the end of a blowout?

Somehow other teams are able to get their players to practice well enough to play, but at UCONN they are not? Or Geno has standards that are so much higher than every other D1 coach that the end of the bench players simply cannot practice well enough to earn more than crumbs of minutes at the end of a game?

I am a HUGE Geno supporter. I've marveled at his ability to morph his philosophy over the years to adjust to the changing players, skill levels, talent, attitudes, etc. But I find it mystifying that literally every other top 20 team is able to get lots of PT for the bench in blowouts, but UCONN is unable to do that.

This will undoubtedly be an unpopular statement, but perhaps it explains why so may players ranked in the 10-50 range coming out of high school have left UCONN. I go back to something I said earlier - either Geno is recruiting the wrong kids (ie. ranked out of the top 10), or he's coaching them wrong, or his expectations are so astronomically high that it's impossible for them to pass muster. If they can't do enough right by his standards to earn PT in a blowout, then I don't blame them for bailing.

If I'm wrong, please tell me the logic in what Geno is doing and why it's not impacting all the players who have left? I get that many went to places and ended up starters, so I get that, but at the time they were at UCONN, their PT was miniscule, which I would imagine played a big part in their leaving.

I agree. Of course, there is no issue at the moment due to the injuries but I was at the Seton Hall game and I could not understand why the "subs" were not in longer and why the rotation was not larger. The limited playing pool approach has proven to be ineffective recently at the end of the season and it does not rest players who are now playing all year round. I'm not going to adopt the theory of some that it has led to injuries but I would note that Mr. Jordan came out of the games at the exact same times and rested the same minutes. Why? To be fresh, have legs and because your body gets used to it. Evina and CW are clearly worn down and were a while ago. He has 7 players now, probably not of his choosing if he could choose, but I am sure he saw what tired legs looked like against Louisville in giving up 29 points in a 4th quarter.

 

[BBallF]

You can't have it both ways AKA You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to leave players on the floor as an experiment to "work through their mistakes" then you can't then hold Geno accountable for winning the game.
Gabby Williams was yanked from a championship game against ND because she missed an assignment and was clearly too jacked up. Caroline was yanked form a game because she was turning over the ball and helping to dig a hole for UCONN.

I don't know what you guys want from Geno! Ya'll need to stop going off half cocked the half ( if that) part being limited to what you see on TV. It was @HuskyNan who first correctly pointed out that Amari missed assignments. Here something to consider- I would bet you a cold beer Amari missed that same assignment in practice or shoot around or in the scout for this game. Working through mistakes is why you practice. Playing games is where you get an opportunity to prove that you have worked through mistakes. There shouldn't be anything experimental once the clock is running otherwise you wouldn't need someone to keep score.

All true but there is a lot to be said for a regular rotation and rest for starters. I don't know anyone who doesn't do that. If he sticks to his 7 or 8 man rotation he will be pressed all year long( Louisville showed what it does to Evina and CW) and our players will be more and more worn down. It's hard to make any definitive statements now with the injuries but in my opinion, pre injuries, he played his starters too much, did not rest them enough, and failed to establish a regular rotation.