Geno's players Rotation

[Vowelguy]

All true but there is a lot to be said for a regular rotation and rest for starters. I don't know anyone who doesn't do that.

You know what else you dont know -- someone who has won 11 titles.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be a change in the game. Or that other things that explain his track record.

BUT,
everyone seems very quick to dump an aspect that is pretty core to his belief system.
Is it not possible that these core beliefs are the secret sauce to his tremendous success?

I mean doesn't the fact that he does something that others don't give anyone pause?

 

[oldhusky]

Here's my issue, and I'm sure some will dislike.

How is it that we look at box scores of numerous other top teams who routinely play 8-12 players in routs, many where bench players double digit minutes. But somehow UCONN is so unique that even in a blowout, the last 3-4 bench players will get a paltry 3-4 minutes at the end of a blowout?

Somehow other teams are able to get their players to practice well enough to play, but at UCONN they are not? Or Geno has standards that are so much higher than every other D1 coach that the end of the bench players simply cannot practice well enough to earn more than crumbs of minutes at the end of a game?

I am a HUGE Geno supporter. I've marveled at his ability to morph his philosophy over the years to adjust to the changing players, skill levels, talent, attitudes, etc. But I find it mystifying that literally every other top 20 team is able to get lots of PT for the bench in blowouts, but UCONN is unable to do that.

This will undoubtedly be an unpopular statement, but perhaps it explains why so may players ranked in the 10-50 range coming out of high school have left UCONN. I go back to something I said earlier - either Geno is recruiting the wrong kids (ie. ranked out of the top 10), or he's coaching them wrong, or his expectations are so astronomically high that it's impossible for them to pass muster. If they can't do enough right by his standards to earn PT in a blowout, then I don't blame them for bailing.

If I'm wrong, please tell me the logic in what Geno is doing and why it's not impacting all the players who have left? I get that many went to places and ended up starters, so I get that, but at the time they were at UCONN, their PT was miniscule, which I would imagine played a big part in their leaving.

Many of your points I agree with. As for why other teams play the end of the bench way way earlier than Geno in blowouts, I think the most logical conclusion is he likes to run up the score. He doesn't want to win by 25 instead of 30, or 35 instead of 40, and the development of players outside his main rotation is not that important to him.

I believe he indicated one time that playing a shorter list of players develops better chemistry between them. I can see that to a certain degree, but think it comes with the downside of when you have to use players outside the normal rotation because of injury, illness, or foul trouble, they may not be ready. In addition of course truly talented players just outside the rotation may well leave.

If you assume the maximum normal rotation in key games is 10 if everyone is healthy, then losing someone who likely never would be part of those 10 doesn't hurt too much. Still it is nice to have somebody that could be decent if needed, and putting in the third string with two minutes to go in a 40 point blowout is almost telling them to leave. That move could easily come early in the fourth quarter. If you want to fill the tail end with Pulido/Lawlor level players then fine, they might just be happy to be part of it, but players in the top 50 generally will not be.

What worries me even more would be if we lost someone who could be in the top 10, but doesn't get to play minutes because Geno sticks with 7 or 8.

 

[CocoHusky]

It has been repeated many times now that Geno likes to or sticks with 7 or 8 person rotation.
So here is my slightly rhetorical question: Name the UCONN bench players throughout the years that were good enough in you collective estimation to expand that rotation and were prevented from doing so by Geno?

 

[boontonbomber]

We've been over this time and time again........I'm pretty sure Ducharme would have played minimal minutes if not for the unfortunate injury situation.........perhaps that has opened Geno's eyes a little bit........as somebody wrote earlier, many recruits these days will not stick around if they don't get to play...........I'm not saying that those that practice poorly should get game time but the days of playing starters well into the fourth quarter with big leads should become a relic of the past when there's a hungry bench to play.....

Who's a relic?

 

[CocoHusky]

That's the point- we'll never know.

Precisely! And since we don't we assume every player that transferred out or is currently sitting on the the bench was good enough to crack the rotation. Well if they were good enough to crack the rotation at UCONN they were probably monsters at their next stop right? Well... not exactly. Besides Michala Johnson and Natalie Butler did any other UCONN WCBB transfer out make an impact at the new school?

 

[donalddoowop]

You can't have it both ways AKA You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to leave players on the floor as an experiment to "work through their mistakes" then you can't then hold Geno accountable for winning the game.
Gabby Williams was yanked from a championship game against ND because she missed an assignment and was clearly too jacked up. Caroline was yanked form a game because she was turning over the ball and helping to dig a hole for UCONN.

I don't know what you guys want from Geno! Ya'll need to stop going off half cocked the half ( if that) part being limited to what you see on TV. It was @HuskyNan who first correctly pointed out that Amari missed assignments. Here something to consider- I would bet you a cold beer Amari missed that same assignment in practice or shoot around or in the scout for this game. Working through mistakes is why you practice. Playing games is where you get an opportunity to prove that you have worked through mistakes. There shouldn't be anything experimental once the clock is running otherwise you wouldn't need someone to keep score.

I know who pointed out DeBerry's missed assignments. It was not necessary to say who it was. About this other stuff you mentioned, it does not seem to hurt other teams. Can't have it both ways? Then don't talk about players being tired in the fourth quarter and playing poorly.

 

[BBallF]

You know what else you dont know -- someone who has won 11 titles.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be a change in the game. Or that other things that explain his track record.

BUT,
everyone seems very quick to dump an aspect that is pretty core to his belief system.
Is it not possible that these core beliefs are the secret sauce to his tremendous success?

I mean doesn't the fact that he does something that others don't give anyone pause?

This is year 5 of the pause. What is the point of great depth if you don't use it? All I'm saying is that if Azzi, Nika and Aubrey become healthy and we stick to a tight 7 man rotation we ain't winning. The game is too fast, too physical, too all year round, and whoever is rested for the 4th quarter, with all other things being equal, is going to win.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that past performance guarantees future results in a game that constantly evolves. He will figure out something. I just don't think that more of the same is that something.

 

[Charliebball]

Precisely! And since we don't we assume every player that transferred out or is currently sitting on the the bench was good enough to crack the rotation. Well if they were good enough to crack the rotation at UCONN they were probably monsters at their next stop right? Well... not exactly. Besides Michala Johnson and Natalie Butler did any other UCONN WCBB transfer out make an impact at the new school?

Good point but playing the bench more often could have had a positive impact on the starters who logged more minutes than necessary during a very long season culminating with the big tournament which is really taxing..........

 

[maccca3232]

 

[Stymie]

This is year 5 of the pause. What is the point of great depth if you don't use it? All I'm saying is that if Azzi, Nika and Aubrey become healthy and we stick to a tight 7 man rotation we ain't winning. The game is too fast, too physical, too all year round, and whoever is rested for the 4th quarter, with all other things being equal, is going to win.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that past performance guarantees future results in a game that constantly evolves. He will figure out something. I just don't think that more of the same is that something.

Bravo, Bravo!!

 

[Javafan]

You know what else you dont know -- someone who has won 11 titles.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be a change in the game. Or that other things that explain his track record.

BUT,
everyone seems very quick to dump an aspect that is pretty core to his belief system.
Is it not possible that these core beliefs are the secret sauce to his tremendous success?

I mean doesn't the fact that he does something that others don't give anyone pause?

Please stop saying he has won 11 titles. We know he is that great. But, look at the last 4-5 years, don't you see a danger sign he was losing that magnificent power? In those recent losing years' FF, don't you think we should at least won 1 title or at least get a couple of Final appearance ? My humble reason to that always point to one thing ; FATIQUE FACTOR ! We were rely on 6-7 players against 10 or more players. We didn't have Paige at those years. Even if Paige was there, is that the way that we want to win a championship ?

 

[Javafan]

It has been repeated many times now that Geno likes to or sticks with 7 or 8 person rotation.
So here is my slightly rhetorical question: Name the UCONN bench players throughout the years that were good enough in you collective estimation to expand that rotation and were prevented from doing so by Geno?

We are not talking about who is qualified(your word good enough) besides those 7 or 8 rotation, we are talking about how to limit player or players having to play 40 minutes. I don't care if she is Paige. If they are not good enough, why did you recruit?

 

[eebmg]

View attachment 72020

Great. Stats to back it up.

 

[Stymie]

Paige helped off the court in the game’s final minute with UCONN up by 20.
Tells you all you need to know about this thread’s header.

 

[Skeets]

I agree. Of course, there is no issue at the moment due to the injuries but I was at the Seton Hall game and I could not understand why the "subs" were not in longer and why the rotation was not larger. The limited playing pool approach has proven to be ineffective recently at the end of the season and it does not rest players who are now playing all year round. I'm not going to adopt the theory of some that it has led to injuries but I would note that Mr. Jordan came out of the games at the exact same times and rested the same minutes. Why? To be fresh, have legs and because your body gets used to it. Evina and CW are clearly worn down and were a while ago. He has 7 players now, probably not of his choosing if he could choose, but I am sure he saw what tired legs looked like against Louisville in giving up 29 points in a 4th quarter.

I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it. Not a criticism of Geno and I know right now UConn does not have a normal bench, but hopefully that will begin to get fixed in the near future. When that happens I'm of the opinion that at least a few bench players should get ~10 mpg not necessarily because they earned those minutes in practice, but to keep the players who did earn minutes in top form. Obviously there's a balancing problem here. You can't dig a deep hole for yourself playing too many bench minutes, but you can't have your best players gassed in 4Q because they played 38 to 40 minutes. This balancing act is coaching.

UConn has a 4Q problem, probably for combination of several reasons. One of those reasons is exhaustion. That can be fixed with careful management of bench minutes in the first 3 quarters.

 

[BBallF]

I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it. Not a criticism of Geno and I know right now UConn does not have a normal bench, but hopefully that will begin to get fixed in the near future. When that happens I'm of the opinion that at least a few bench players should get ~10 mpg not necessarily because they earned those minutes in practice, but to keep the players who did earn minutes in top form. Obviously there's a balancing problem here. You can't dig a deep hole for yourself playing too many bench minutes, but you can't have your best players gassed in 4Q because they played 38 to 40 minutes. This balancing act is coaching.

UConn has a 4Q problem, probably for combination of several reasons. One of those reasons is exhaustion. That can be fixed with careful management of bench minutes in the first 3 quarters.

Spot on.

 

[Jmsdawg]

I admire and respect Geno's Philosophy and Discipline toward handling UCONN players practice and game time off and on the field. I understand his emphasis on practice as a guide post for the player in order to gain each and every player's playing time. Enough on this basic. I want to throw some other aspect as to how under that guideline we could achieve our OBJECTIVE when occasion warrants you to do otherwise. Let's talk about the OBJECTIVE.
A) to win NC
B) to win every game along the line on winning the A), as though it's icing on the cake.
I don't know about everyone on BY, and Geno for that matter, if we all agree A) is more important than B) then, sometime we have to sacrifice B) to get the A).
I urge to give the bench more playing time. If player X didn't have a decent practice or practices OR she is not capability-ready to sub in, yet for her playing position does present a good fit position wise, then, sub her in. The rational is to give your key(yet exhausted) player some breather, not only for that particular game but for the next game and beyond ! Otherwise, you are punishing those key players instead ! You want to save energy and full physical readiness for those key players. Remember , A) is more important than B).
I love UCONN for over 30 years in big part because of Geno. He is no doubt the greatest WBB head around. If he can be just flexible a little bit !

Hard to change when the results of the present are positive. I think Geno has deliberately tried to establish a hard core game players group. He apparently wants that group to become so familiar with each other playing as a unit becomes automatic. That coaching style has been successful. However, in physical games where the opposing team is also very good and also has relief players with game playing experience the small unit philosophy has weaknesses mainly fatigue late in the game. The unit coaching style worked better before the WBB players market grew to todays level. There are more really good women basketball recruits available and more WBB teams with elite potential. Depth has become a real factor in the performance of todays WBB teams. Depth is more than recruiting, those highly rated players the team recruited MUS BE DEVELOPED VIA ACTUAL GAME TIME.

 

[oldhusky]

I was going to post something similar, but you beat me to it. Not a criticism of Geno and I know right now UConn does not have a normal bench, but hopefully that will begin to get fixed in the near future. When that happens I'm of the opinion that at least a few bench players should get ~10 mpg not necessarily because they earned those minutes in practice, but to keep the players who did earn minutes in top form. Obviously there's a balancing problem here. You can't dig a deep hole for yourself playing too many bench minutes, but you can't have your best players gassed in 4Q because they played 38 to 40 minutes. This balancing act is coaching.

UConn has a 4Q problem, probably for combination of several reasons. One of those reasons is exhaustion. That can be fixed with careful management of bench minutes in the first 3 quarters.

Agreed. Geno acts like there is nothing he can do about it because he doesn't have any backup guards. The options aren't very good but there are options. Aaliyah could be playing 25-30 minutes exclusively at SF, in essence being the backup for Evina, Christyn and Caroline with Geno having to carefully time his substitutions.

Because Aaliyah is needed to provide guard relief, you could then insert Amari into a new three big rotation with Liv and Dorka, with Amari used the least of the three but still allowing the two starters to get as much rest as needed.

Amari is unproven but talented, Aaliyah is out of position and wouldn't be as good at the 3 than the 4, but still brings some talent to the position, and for a few minutes each game Christyn would need to be the point when Evina was out. All of those are negatives, but would I rather go with that than have gassed starters down the stretch? Yes!

 

[jabstep]

What is the pattern of our losses. The 4th quarter. Why we are out of gas. Why when we played Minnesota and were up big and we had to play 3 GAMES in three days were our starters in the 4th quaters. SC in their games their starters played significantly less than UConn's. I know GT and Louisville we had no bench but it is death to us to play our starters 40 minutes. I still think we will win the National Championship if we can get everybody healthy. Azzi and Caroline will take minutes from the seniors. When you have guards that can hit three's it opens the middle for backdoors, drives to the hoop and then kick for three's. We have the talent and finally enough big's to compete which had been missing for years.

 

[CocoHusky]

Can't have it both ways? Then don't talk about players being tired in the fourth quarter and playing poorly.

I didn't.

 

[HopJim]

This may not be the year to have this discussion. While I have always been a fan of resting starters to help offset the results of the difficult practices, before the current injuries, Geno had little chance to show his cards on this topic for this team. Too many close games. Let's push the pause button until we get some guards back.

 

[CocoHusky]

Good point but playing the bench more often could have had a positive impact on the starters who logged more minutes than necessary during a very long season culminating with the big tournament which is really taxing..........

I'm with you and @Javafan and @donalddoowop. I too want fresh players in the 4 quarters of games and rested players come tournament time. What coach doesn't? What I strongly disagree with is your proposed method of achieving this. If a UCONN player is good enough to positively impact the game they will find their way onto the floor. @Javafan the answer to your question as to why recruit these players to have them sit is: not all recruits pan out as expected & it is damn hard to make the rotation at UCONN. First three games of the season Geno played 8, 9, 9 players and still there were at least 3 different threads stating that Geno is struggling with substitutions. Geno is not struggling with substitutions, the bench players are struggling trying to positively impact the game.

 

[boontonbomber]

Precisely! And since we don't we assume every player that transferred out or is currently sitting on the the bench was good enough to crack the rotation. Well if they were good enough to crack the rotation at UCONN they were probably monsters at their next stop right? Well... not exactly. Besides Michala Johnson and Natalie Butler did any other UCONN WCBB transfer out make an impact at the new school?

Espinoza-Hunter certainly did, and is.

 

[CocoHusky]

Espinoza-Hunter certainly did, and is.

AEH was most definitely a part of Geno's rotation prior to her departure after 7 games. Her departure from UCONN had nothing to do with lack of playing time. UCONN desperately needed a 3rd guard to be in the rotation behind Kia (team leader in MPG) and Crystal. AEH was that 3rd guard until her departure and would have continued to be into the next two seasons as well.

 

[Charliebball]

I'm with you and @Javafan and @donalddoowop. I too want fresh players in the 4 quarters of games and rested players come tournament time. What coach doesn't? What I strongly disagree with is your proposed method of achieving this. If a UCONN player is good enough to positively impact the game they will find their way onto the floor. @Javafan the answer to your question as to why recruit these players to have them sit is: not all recruits pan out as expected & it is damn hard to make the rotation at UCONN. First three games of the season Geno played 8, 9, 9 players and still there were at least 3 different threads stating that Geno is struggling with substitutions. Geno is not struggling with substitutions, the bench players are struggling trying to positively impact the game.

I think there's a middle ground............Dawn uses a good part of her bench during the game, usually bringing in one or two at a time and the rest later in the game................as far as I'm concerned force feeding a freshman that has the ability and the mental fortitude to handle it is the way to go..........I remember one of Ducharme's earliest appearances where she could barely dribble the basketball yet she managed to play through the nerves in her next few appearances to become a very important starter ..........no way that happens as quickly with the fourth quarter two minute to go experience....