Geno: Substitution Patterns

[MD#12Fan]

And I'd add Pop and Riley, who might have done his best coaching with the Heat until his final year or two.

I'm a big fan of Pop, but he might also be overstaying with the Spurs. And years before, at age 64, the great Wooden was, to my mind, rightfully criticized for very questionable strategies in the Bruins' NCAA semis loss to NC State in '74 (he did come back to win in '75). Here's hoping we never get to be criticizing Geno for overstaying.

I enjoyed reading the memories of UCLA vs. Jacksonville. That win was a tribute to Wooden's coaching acumen.

I had been fortunate to see Gilmore when he was at Gardner-Webb JC during the '67-68 season playing an entertaining shootout with the Wake Forest freshman team, which featured Charlie Davis, later to be the first black named ACC Player of the Year.

Love hearing about basketball lore!
Do you remember Bobby Dwyer, backup point guard at WF, I think during the Skip Brown years. (BTW- best ACC ever was?- UMD, Skip Wise, UNC) He was my HS coach's son. Bob Dwyer. Bob had a famous run at Archbishop Carroll in Washington, DC. To this day Carroll still mentioned as greatest team in DC history- John Thompson, Leftwich....Bobby worked with my team (The Priory- St. Anselm's in NE DC) for a year. He helped "train" our center, Steve Castellan, during his senior year. Steve ended up having a nice career at UVA. Bobby was a hard-nosed dude. I respected him. Bob, Sr was a crusty old dude. He knew how to win basketball games. If you get John Thompson's book, Bob is mentioned in it a lot. Apparently he did a lot to integrate basketball in the Catholic League in DC in the late 50's.
(so yes, I know what it's like playing for a famous, iconic coach)

 

[tower1]

I haven't read one post on this thread. I've just seen the title for the last couple days but feeling a little angst and need to vent. I think that no one who has not been involved with the team day-to-day and who hasn't been privy to the the coaches insights and been aware of the expected game time results of substitutions is qualified to question a coach's substitution patterns. My ignorance of the details precludes me from judgement of other peoples performance.

Take a chill pill, Relax

 

[The deacon]

Love hearing about basketball lore!
Do you remember Bobby Dwyer, backup point guard at WF, I think during the Skip Brown years. (BTW- best ACC ever was?- UMD, Skip Wise, UNC) He was my HS coach's son. Bob Dwyer. Bob had a famous run at Archbishop Carroll in Washington, DC. To this day Carroll still mentioned as greatest team in DC history- John Thompson, Leftwich....Bobby worked with my team (The Priory- St. Anselm's in NE DC) for a year. He helped "train" our center, Steve Castellan, during his senior year. Steve ended up having a nice career at UVA. Bobby was a hard-nosed dude. I respected him. Bob, Sr was a crusty old dude. He knew how to win basketball games. If you get John Thompson's book, Bob is mentioned in it a lot. Apparently he did a lot to integrate basketball in the Catholic League in DC in the late 50's.
(so yes, I know what it's like playing for a famous, iconic coach)

Wow, that's quite a litany of names and experiences!

I do faintly remember Dwyer from Wake, but I think he might have been a bit ahead of Brown (and just a few years after my time there). I don't recall him being an impact player, but judging by his ensuing career, he was/is a bright guy.

And, yes, relative to the rest of the nation, that might have been the height of ACC basketball, or at least one of its high points, even after a solid South Carolina program had left the conference a few years earlier.

About Bobby the Younger being hard-nosed, sounds right. That Coach K had him on staff at West Point and Duke speaks volumes.

Were you on the Carroll team with Thompson/Leftwich, or am I making you older than you are?

 

[MD#12Fan]

Take a chill pill, Rel

Wow, that's quite a litany of names and experiences!

I do faintly remember Dwyer from Wake, but I think he might have been a bit ahead of Brown (and just a few years after my time there). I don't recall him being an impact player, but judging by his ensuing career, he was/is a bright guy.

And, yes, relative to the rest of the nation, that might have been the height of ACC basketball, or at least one of its high points, even after a solid South Carolina program had left the conference a few years earlier.

About Bobby the Younger being hard-nosed, sounds right. That Coach K had him on staff at West Point and Duke speaks volumes.

Were you on the Carroll team with Thompson/Leftwich, or am I making you older than you are?

I played with Castellan at St Anselms. Listen to this: graduating class of 21, D1 recruits two years in a row. Manny Suarez to Jacksonville and Castellan to UVA. Dwyer couldn’t get us fun games. We played catholic schools our size and we destroyed them.
Great call on the South Carolina team. Frank McGuire. When I was a kid UMD upset them like 13-9. Gary Williams was on that team. Howard White, Jim O’Brien. Good stuff! Thanks

 

[The deacon]

I played with Castellan at St Anselms. Listen to this: graduating class of 21, D1 recruits two years in a row. Manny Suarez to Jacksonville and Castellan to UVA. Dwyer couldn’t get us fun games. We played catholic schools our size and we destroyed them.
Great call on the South Carolina team. Frank McGuire. When I was a kid UMD upset them like 13-9. Gary Williams was on that team. Howard White, Jim O’Brien. Good stuff! Thanks

That's a small school, for sure... I well remember Castellan, not really Suarez. Too bad you didn't have more competitive games. Heck, you can sort of relate to the Huskies' quandary playing in the AAC and now the Big East. Hopefully this winter UConn will get some more competitive games.

I remember that 13-9 game, and others like NC State's 12-10 upset of Duke in the '68 ACC tournament. McGuire was a great recruiter; after winning an NCAA title with UNC, he later had such familiar names as Bobby Cremins, John Roche, Tom Riker, Alex English and Kevin Joyce at SC.

 

[MD#12Fan]

That's a small school, for sure... I well remember Castellan, not really Suarez. Too bad you didn't have more competitive games. Heck, you can sort of relate to the Huskies' quandary playing in the AAC and now the Big East. Hopefully this winter UConn will get some more competitive games.

I remember that 13-9 game, and others like NC State's 12-10 upset of Duke in the '68 ACC tournament. McGuire was a great recruiter; after winning an NCAA title with UNC, he later had such familiar names as Bobby Cremins, John Roche, Tom Riker, Alex English and Kevin Joyce at SC.

That’s why to the dismay of the BY I speak out about it and about getting these kids on the court.
I remember the NCAA’s with Roche, Rick Mount, Calvin Murphy. Maravich in the NIT. Even the centers could shoot- Bob Lanier. Players could shoot in the 60’s and 70’s. No 3-point line. Anyone watch a YouTube of the 69-70 Knicks and tell me they couldn’t shoot back in the day. No shots from the half court logo, but still.
Wish there was no line….discussion for another day.

 

[The deacon]

That’s why to the dismay of the BY I speak out about it and about getting these kids on the court.
I remember the NCAA’s with Roche, Rick Mount, Calvin Murphy. Maravich in the NIT. Even the centers could shoot- Bob Lanier. Players could shoot in the 60’s and 70’s. No 3-point line. Anyone watch a YouTube of the 69-70 Knicks and tell me they couldn’t shoot back in the day. No shots from the half court logo, but still.
Wish there was no line….discussion for another day.

I agree with you. It's debatable whether the game is better or worse with the 3-point shot, but it's clearly cost the preponderance of this era's players the knack for making 12- to 15-footers.

Those were all special talents you mention here, players capable of scoring from anywhere on the court, and Murphy and Maravich surely rank among the most entertaining players in the sport's history.

 

[Stymie]

I will avoid the main debates of how long a rotation (6-7 vs 9 or 10) or pressing and fast-breaking to use the bench more, and focus on how Geno uses the last players on the bench. This is a minor issue in the scheme of things, but one that has always bothered me.

In general if you are not in the rotation, be it 7 or 10, you usually get a couple of minutes at the end of a 40 point blow out. My position is if those players never get any significant minutes short of an injury or foul trouble, then once the game is decided they should be in there.

When you are ahead by 25-30 against a team you are clearly better than, the game is over, I'm ready for the players out of the rotation, even if there is still say 15 minutes left in the game. Waiting till the last two minutes when you are up by 40, 30, or even 20 is in my opinion running up the score.

I know Geno likes to develop the team chemistry with his main players, and that is part of the reason for his approach, and there are numerous computer rankings where you will rank a little higher if you win by 40 instead of 35, even if it is by keeping your starters in long past the game being decided.

But we have to consider the downside to Geno's approach as well. If because of injury he has to use the tail end of the bench, they are less likely to be ready if they don't get more time than he gives them, but more importantly I think it can negatively affect recruiting.

If the players outside of the rotation are Pulido, Lawlor level players it may not matter. You don't have players that could do a decent job if needed, but they could be content playing less than 100 minutes for the whole year. But if you want your third stringers to be playable if needed, then they need more minutes.

Do you want a potential recruit in the 10-15 range nationally to rule out Uconn because they think on paper they might be the 9th or 10th best player, they see Geno using 8, and they fear they will get Pulido minutes even in a blowout? I don't think getting players like Mir, Amari or Piath for the end of the bench is sustainable they way Geno uses the end of the bench.

Deja vu, no?

 

[TCC Kid]

I think he tells CD .

That is so unfair. A touch of bias it would appear. Doesn't he want Morgan and Jamell to know? Unfair! I'm heading --up? Down? over? or all the above to Storrs to protest.