Geno: Substitution Patterns

[Stymie]

Pra



You may disagree but doesn't change what the issue is. IMO It's not practice that's the issue, because the coach himself up to this point raved about their practice session- did I misconstrue what Geno himself has stated? (at length I might add)
On more than one occasion in postgame pressers I'm sure I heard Geno lament after games, that everyone's standing around looking at Paige at points during the game. Do they do that in practice? He also pointed out that keeping her out there for those extended minutes can't continue. So clearly there is an issue with how Paige's teammates see her role and theirs, sometimes you have to take the unpopular path. In a way the situation was inevitable, she has saved the day for her team on numerous occasions,which has the fed the dependency. How does one break a dependency? In this case it's delicate because you don't want the solution to be detrimental to the function of the team. Geno now has to figure that out. Just how it is.

Well, according to the facts as you present them, the team is ALREADY in a state of disfunction by it’s over dependence on one player.
I am unqualified to offer a solution with conviction, but maybe in an early BE game , Coach can can get a significant lead midway through the 2nd quarter, call a time out, pull Paige, and tell the team they have to “figure it out” without her.
Explain to Paige (privately) that sitting her for a while will serve the team much more effectively than rolling , say Syracuse, By 40 points.
The players that can’t “ figure it out” get have their team participation “ adjusted”.
If it is truly all about the team and winning Paige will be all in with it .
For her, I am certain that it IS all about winning and she’ll be totally supportive.

 

[Oracle9]

Not

Well, according to the facts as you present them, the team is ALREADY in a state of disfunction by it’s over dependence on one player.
I am unqualified to offer a solution with conviction, but maybe in an early BE game , Coach can can get a significant lead midway through the 2nd quarter, call a time out, pull Paige, and tell the team they have to “figure it out” without her.
Explain to Paige (privately) that sitting her for a while will serve the team much more effectively than rolling , say Syracuse, By 40 points.
The players that can’t “ figure it out” get have their team participation “ adjusted”.
If it is truly all about the team and winning Paige will be all in with it .
For her, I am certain that it IS all about winning and she’ll be totally supportive.

No I never said dysfunction, it's their mindset or approach just needs a bit of adjustment and they do use Paige as a crutch of sorts at times, instead of playing through-it also affects how they respond to handling game pressure. And I actually thought and agree with that strategy on how to sit her, and I posted that I think she would agree to something like that. I also would not say "figure it out" but play with a mindset that yes Paige is our ace but here's how we can help our teammate help us be successful it is after all a team sport, and they have professed to want to winning a chip. All in is needed.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Can I ask a question, kind of a pause from one of the longest (in time) threads in history? Thanks for all the responses!
Why didn't anyone even respond, either positively or negatively, to my point #6? A "blue team".
There are a lot of ancient posters like me that remember Dean and NC. He had a perennial power at UNC and he recruited top HS players nationally up and down his roster every year.

 

[hoophuskee]

I'm reluctant to comment. I find your incessant argument for a short bench to be tiresome. It had its charm at first.
There is such a thing as innovation. To me your argument might be moot concerning WCBB because it is possible that Geno has the best bench ever assembled in WCBB. If that were true, it's possible that all of your points about having a short bench are irrelevant. I've made my points a million times on here so I'm going to skip mentioning all the positive things UConn WCBB can gain by using the talented bench to win games and be the best team it can be.
Reminds me of watching coaches (Dan Reeves in particular) flounder around trying to figure out how to best use Michael Vick. He was an absolute freak of nature and we had to watch coaches try to make him a pocket passer. Has the league changed in this regard?
Maybe Geno can write another chapter about how to excel using all the talent on your bench.

You realize I can say the same thing you said in your 1st few sentences back at you, right? That I might find similarly your incessant argument for a deep bench at the expense of not giving the stars enough time/ "criticism of Geno in this regard/ to be tiresome too, right? Is this where we want our arguments to go that we're going to slap at each for being tiresome with the other?

While you speak of "innovation" I say it's a combination of rewarding without performance just because you want to see full court along with over-coaching. It's not innovation what you're proposing imo.

While you say it's possible that Geno hasn't used possibly the best bench in the world; I say it's a fact that he continues to be the most successful wcbb in the sport because in part he knows exactly how to use his bench. Yes it's possible I could be wrong. But it's also possible giving time to lesser players and losing some big games doing so while some of your stars are on the bench would be far worse.

And I know you've made your points. Well so have I. I think mine are right. SO it's nice that you tell me that you've made your points a million times but we can't fight it out on here (I’m not going to respond to every post you make, right?) other than an occasional post across the bow at one another then leave it for another day. The mods would shut it down but more importantly I think 99% of the board would get upset with our incessant back-and-forth. So I'm doing here what I usually do when you and I have a dispute. You make a point; I make a counter and you're welcome to counter this. You get last word. I won't reply.

If you want to carry this further you can PM me. Or instead just ignore me. People don't want to read our-back-and-forth maybe other than once or twice then a halt. Others can chime in too. It would be good if we continue to be civil with one another too. Sorry if you may be at a point of not if you are. But I have no real issue with what we’re doing. We've been very civil. And I think we end our points quick enough considering how much we disagree.

 

[CocoHusky]

I'm reluctant to comment. I find your incessant argument for a short bench to be tiresome. It had its charm at first.
There is such a thing as innovation. To me your argument might be moot concerning WCBB because it is possible that Geno has the best bench ever assembled in WCBB. If that were true, it's possible that all of your points about having a short bench are irrelevant. I've made my points a million times on here so I'm going to skip mentioning all the positive things UConn WCBB can gain by using the talented bench to win games and be the best team it can be.
Reminds me of watching coaches (Dan Reeves in particular) flounder around trying to figure out how to best use Michael Vick. He was an absolute freak of nature and we had to watch coaches try to make him a pocket passer. Has the league changed in this regard?
Maybe Geno can write another chapter about how to excel using all the talent on your bench.

Best bench ever assembled in WCBB? Doubtful. Geno not knowing how to use the best bench ever assembled in WCBB- ridiculous! Me thinks you severely overestimate the talent on this team especially that bench.

 

[hoophuskee]

Not that it matters but he won 2. His team also beat "The Fab 5." Webber called timeout with no timeouts left.

 

[Centerstream]

Can I ask a question, kind of a pause from one of the longest (in time) threads in history? Thanks for all the responses!
Why didn't anyone even respond, either positively or negatively, to my point #6? A "blue team".
There are a lot of ancient posters like me that remember Dean and NC. He had a perennial power at UNC and he recruited top HS players nationally up and down his roster every year.

I mentioned using a "blue team" in multiple off season threads and not nary a BYer thought that it was a good idea. In retrospect, it should probably have been ignored because it was probably not a good idea. Period.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Good points!
I’d counter (prefacing the comment with I love Geno) that greatness in coaching doesn’t have to rest on purely championships.
Personally I rate highly coaches that win different ways, with different type players, and even at different places. Geno created the UConn dynasty which is incredible. I think Larry Brown is underrated. I think what Lombardi did with the Redskins is noteworthy. Led to George Allen and eventually the Hogs. Wooden won different ways. The ‘65 team had an innovative press with Keith Erickson at 6’5” in the back. I think the discussion can be deeper! Best pro- coach? Phil, Red…….

 

[MD#12Fan]

I mentioned using a "blue team" in multiple off season threads and not nary a BYer thought that it was a good idea. In retrospect, it should probably have been ignored because it was probably not a good idea. Period.

Period! What’s that mean?
Why is it a bad idea?
I don’t know you and never will. Ignore if that’s all you got. I want to hear why it’s a bad idea.
Do I care what the BY thinks?
If it was me, I’d have had it in starting with Hays St. Everyone from game one would have had college minutes. More minutes during “turkey time”. By the time the SC game came everyone would have had something like 20 game minutes. Then I would have known who was up to that 4th quarter.
By March, every player on the team has played real minutes. Let’s talk about player development.
Somebody said practice is the same as games.
Play much?

 

[Centerstream]

Period! What’s that mean?
Why is it a bad idea?
I don’t know you and never will. Ignore if that’s all you got. I want to hear why it’s a bad idea.
Do I care what the BY thinks?
If it was me, I’d have had it in starting with Hays St. Everyone from game one would have had college minutes. More minutes during “turkey time”. By the time the SC game came everyone would have had something like 20 game minutes. Then I would have known who was up to that 4th quarter.
By March, every player on the team has played real minutes. Let’s talk about player development.
Somebody said practice is the same as games.
Play much?

I believe that in my opinion, what I proposed was a bad idea. Again, my opinion of my idea.
To be honest if what I thought at the time (offseason, preseason) was a good idea, then Geno would have already tried it by now, I am sure he is aware of the methods that many good coaches used over the years. So, in my opinion, my idea was a bad idea.
I in no way mentioned that your idea was wrong, I was only stating that the idea of a blue team that I put forth more than once was no longer a good idea to me.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I believe that in my opinion, what I proposed was a bad idea. Again, my opinion of my idea.
To be honest if what I thought at the time (offseason, preseason) was a good idea, then Geno would have already tried it by now, I am sure he is aware of the methods that many good coaches used over the years. So, in my opinion, my idea was a bad idea.
I in no way mentioned that your idea was wrong, I was only stating that the idea of a blue team that I put forth more than once was no longer a good idea to me.

I appreciate your "clarification". I still don't know why you won't explain your ideas.
Every time I mention Dean, the BY goes haywire. It's like a symptom of something really bad. It's an unhealthy, unseemly arrogance, that you can't discuss other coaches on this site. Dean is a branch away from Naismith himself at Kansas. All sports go through change and innovation. Football had the forward pass (Thorpe, Carlisle, and Pop Warner) and man-in-motion (Tom Landry) for example. Both of them have their image carved into the totem of great coaches.
Geno, of course is in any "great coach" conversation but IMO his superior abilities are in communication and management, not innovation. I would argue even that he is even more reluctant to try new things in recent years. He has had "centerless" teams for a while now and he keeps running the same stuff with the same result. He should remember how Wooden won with Wicks and Rowe against Artis Gilmore. Wooden won different ways. Yes he had great players just like Geno does.

 

[Centerstream]

I appreciate your "clarification". I still don't know why you won't explain your ideas.
Every time I mention Dean, the BY goes haywire. It's like a symptom of something really bad. It's an unhealthy, unseemly arrogance, that you can't discuss other coaches on this site. Dean is a branch away from Naismith himself at Kansas. All sports go through change and innovation. Football had the forward pass (Thorpe, Carlisle, and Pop Warner) and man-in-motion (Tom Landry) for example. Both of them have their image carved into the totem of great coaches.
Geno, of course is in any "great coach" conversation but IMO his superior abilities are in communication and management, not innovation. I would argue even that he is even more reluctant to try new things in recent years. He has had "centerless" teams for a while now and he keeps running the same stuff with the same result. He should remember how Wooden won with Wicks and Rowe against Artis Gilmore. Wooden won different ways. Yes he had great players just like Geno does.

Swerve: I actually watched the men's game back in the 70s and 80s and remember that NC game between UCLA and the Jacksonville Dolphins. Not only did Jacksonville have Artis but also had Pembroke Burrows, a 6'11" player. And that wasn't enough.
Ah, the good ol days.

 

[The deacon]

Good points!
I’d counter (prefacing the comment with I love Geno) that greatness in coaching doesn’t have to rest on purely championships.
Personally I rate highly coaches that win different ways, with different type players, and even at different places. Geno created the UConn dynasty which is incredible. I think Larry Brown is underrated. I think what Lombardi did with the Redskins is noteworthy. Led to George Allen and eventually the Hogs. Wooden won different ways. The ‘65 team had an innovative press with Keith Erickson at 6’5” in the back. I think the discussion can be deeper! Best pro- coach? Phil, Red…….

And I'd add Pop and Riley, who might have done his best coaching with the Heat until his final year or two.

I'm a big fan of Pop, but he might also be overstaying with the Spurs. And years before, at age 64, the great Wooden was, to my mind, rightfully criticized for very questionable strategies in the Bruins' NCAA semis loss to NC State in '74 (he did come back to win in '75). Here's hoping we never get to be criticizing Geno for overstaying.

I enjoyed reading the memories of UCLA vs. Jacksonville. That win was a tribute to Wooden's coaching acumen.

I had been fortunate to see Gilmore when he was at Gardner-Webb JC during the '67-68 season playing an entertaining shootout with the Wake Forest freshman team, which featured Charlie Davis, later to be the first black named ACC Player of the Year.

 

[MD#12Fan]

And I'd add Pop and Riley, who might have done his best coaching with the Heat until his final year or two.

I'm a big fan of Pop, but he might also be overstaying with the Spurs. And years before, at age 64, the great Wooden was, to my mind, rightfully criticized for very questionable strategies in the Bruins' NCAA semis loss to NC State in '74 (he did come back to win in '75). Here's hoping we never get to be criticizing Geno for overstaying.

I enjoyed reading the memories of UCLA vs. Jacksonville. That win was a tribute to Wooden's coaching acumen.

I had been fortunate to see Gilmore when he was at Gardner-Webb JC during the '67-68 season playing an entertaining shootout with the Wake Forest freshman team, which featured Charlie Davis, later to be the first black named ACC Player of the Year.

Love hearing about basketball lore!
Do you remember Bobby Dwyer, backup point guard at WF, I think during the Skip Brown years. (BTW- best ACC ever was?- UMD, Skip Wise, UNC) He was my HS coach's son. Bob Dwyer. Bob had a famous run at Archbishop Carroll in Washington, DC. To this day Carroll still mentioned as greatest team in DC history- John Thompson, Leftwich....Bobby worked with my team (The Priory- St. Anselm's in NE DC) for a year. He helped "train" our center, Steve Castellan, during his senior year. Steve ended up having a nice career at UVA. Bobby was a hard-nosed dude. I respected him. Bob, Sr was a crusty old dude. He knew how to win basketball games. If you get John Thompson's book, Bob is mentioned in it a lot. Apparently he did a lot to integrate basketball in the Catholic League in DC in the late 50's.
(so yes, I know what it's like playing for a famous, iconic coach)

 

[tower1]

I haven't read one post on this thread. I've just seen the title for the last couple days but feeling a little angst and need to vent. I think that no one who has not been involved with the team day-to-day and who hasn't been privy to the the coaches insights and been aware of the expected game time results of substitutions is qualified to question a coach's substitution patterns. My ignorance of the details precludes me from judgement of other peoples performance.

Take a chill pill, Relax

 

[The deacon]

Love hearing about basketball lore!
Do you remember Bobby Dwyer, backup point guard at WF, I think during the Skip Brown years. (BTW- best ACC ever was?- UMD, Skip Wise, UNC) He was my HS coach's son. Bob Dwyer. Bob had a famous run at Archbishop Carroll in Washington, DC. To this day Carroll still mentioned as greatest team in DC history- John Thompson, Leftwich....Bobby worked with my team (The Priory- St. Anselm's in NE DC) for a year. He helped "train" our center, Steve Castellan, during his senior year. Steve ended up having a nice career at UVA. Bobby was a hard-nosed dude. I respected him. Bob, Sr was a crusty old dude. He knew how to win basketball games. If you get John Thompson's book, Bob is mentioned in it a lot. Apparently he did a lot to integrate basketball in the Catholic League in DC in the late 50's.
(so yes, I know what it's like playing for a famous, iconic coach)

Wow, that's quite a litany of names and experiences!

I do faintly remember Dwyer from Wake, but I think he might have been a bit ahead of Brown (and just a few years after my time there). I don't recall him being an impact player, but judging by his ensuing career, he was/is a bright guy.

And, yes, relative to the rest of the nation, that might have been the height of ACC basketball, or at least one of its high points, even after a solid South Carolina program had left the conference a few years earlier.

About Bobby the Younger being hard-nosed, sounds right. That Coach K had him on staff at West Point and Duke speaks volumes.

Were you on the Carroll team with Thompson/Leftwich, or am I making you older than you are?

 

[MD#12Fan]

Take a chill pill, Rel

Wow, that's quite a litany of names and experiences!

I do faintly remember Dwyer from Wake, but I think he might have been a bit ahead of Brown (and just a few years after my time there). I don't recall him being an impact player, but judging by his ensuing career, he was/is a bright guy.

And, yes, relative to the rest of the nation, that might have been the height of ACC basketball, or at least one of its high points, even after a solid South Carolina program had left the conference a few years earlier.

About Bobby the Younger being hard-nosed, sounds right. That Coach K had him on staff at West Point and Duke speaks volumes.

Were you on the Carroll team with Thompson/Leftwich, or am I making you older than you are?

I played with Castellan at St Anselms. Listen to this: graduating class of 21, D1 recruits two years in a row. Manny Suarez to Jacksonville and Castellan to UVA. Dwyer couldn’t get us fun games. We played catholic schools our size and we destroyed them.
Great call on the South Carolina team. Frank McGuire. When I was a kid UMD upset them like 13-9. Gary Williams was on that team. Howard White, Jim O’Brien. Good stuff! Thanks

 

[The deacon]

I played with Castellan at St Anselms. Listen to this: graduating class of 21, D1 recruits two years in a row. Manny Suarez to Jacksonville and Castellan to UVA. Dwyer couldn’t get us fun games. We played catholic schools our size and we destroyed them.
Great call on the South Carolina team. Frank McGuire. When I was a kid UMD upset them like 13-9. Gary Williams was on that team. Howard White, Jim O’Brien. Good stuff! Thanks

That's a small school, for sure... I well remember Castellan, not really Suarez. Too bad you didn't have more competitive games. Heck, you can sort of relate to the Huskies' quandary playing in the AAC and now the Big East. Hopefully this winter UConn will get some more competitive games.

I remember that 13-9 game, and others like NC State's 12-10 upset of Duke in the '68 ACC tournament. McGuire was a great recruiter; after winning an NCAA title with UNC, he later had such familiar names as Bobby Cremins, John Roche, Tom Riker, Alex English and Kevin Joyce at SC.

 

[MD#12Fan]

That's a small school, for sure... I well remember Castellan, not really Suarez. Too bad you didn't have more competitive games. Heck, you can sort of relate to the Huskies' quandary playing in the AAC and now the Big East. Hopefully this winter UConn will get some more competitive games.

I remember that 13-9 game, and others like NC State's 12-10 upset of Duke in the '68 ACC tournament. McGuire was a great recruiter; after winning an NCAA title with UNC, he later had such familiar names as Bobby Cremins, John Roche, Tom Riker, Alex English and Kevin Joyce at SC.

That’s why to the dismay of the BY I speak out about it and about getting these kids on the court.
I remember the NCAA’s with Roche, Rick Mount, Calvin Murphy. Maravich in the NIT. Even the centers could shoot- Bob Lanier. Players could shoot in the 60’s and 70’s. No 3-point line. Anyone watch a YouTube of the 69-70 Knicks and tell me they couldn’t shoot back in the day. No shots from the half court logo, but still.
Wish there was no line….discussion for another day.

 

[The deacon]

That’s why to the dismay of the BY I speak out about it and about getting these kids on the court.
I remember the NCAA’s with Roche, Rick Mount, Calvin Murphy. Maravich in the NIT. Even the centers could shoot- Bob Lanier. Players could shoot in the 60’s and 70’s. No 3-point line. Anyone watch a YouTube of the 69-70 Knicks and tell me they couldn’t shoot back in the day. No shots from the half court logo, but still.
Wish there was no line….discussion for another day.

I agree with you. It's debatable whether the game is better or worse with the 3-point shot, but it's clearly cost the preponderance of this era's players the knack for making 12- to 15-footers.

Those were all special talents you mention here, players capable of scoring from anywhere on the court, and Murphy and Maravich surely rank among the most entertaining players in the sport's history.

 

[Stymie]

I will avoid the main debates of how long a rotation (6-7 vs 9 or 10) or pressing and fast-breaking to use the bench more, and focus on how Geno uses the last players on the bench. This is a minor issue in the scheme of things, but one that has always bothered me.

In general if you are not in the rotation, be it 7 or 10, you usually get a couple of minutes at the end of a 40 point blow out. My position is if those players never get any significant minutes short of an injury or foul trouble, then once the game is decided they should be in there.

When you are ahead by 25-30 against a team you are clearly better than, the game is over, I'm ready for the players out of the rotation, even if there is still say 15 minutes left in the game. Waiting till the last two minutes when you are up by 40, 30, or even 20 is in my opinion running up the score.

I know Geno likes to develop the team chemistry with his main players, and that is part of the reason for his approach, and there are numerous computer rankings where you will rank a little higher if you win by 40 instead of 35, even if it is by keeping your starters in long past the game being decided.

But we have to consider the downside to Geno's approach as well. If because of injury he has to use the tail end of the bench, they are less likely to be ready if they don't get more time than he gives them, but more importantly I think it can negatively affect recruiting.

If the players outside of the rotation are Pulido, Lawlor level players it may not matter. You don't have players that could do a decent job if needed, but they could be content playing less than 100 minutes for the whole year. But if you want your third stringers to be playable if needed, then they need more minutes.

Do you want a potential recruit in the 10-15 range nationally to rule out Uconn because they think on paper they might be the 9th or 10th best player, they see Geno using 8, and they fear they will get Pulido minutes even in a blowout? I don't think getting players like Mir, Amari or Piath for the end of the bench is sustainable they way Geno uses the end of the bench.

Deja vu, no?

 

[TCC Kid]

I think he tells CD .

That is so unfair. A touch of bias it would appear. Doesn't he want Morgan and Jamell to know? Unfair! I'm heading --up? Down? over? or all the above to Storrs to protest.