Generational Players-when can you tell?

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Dillon77

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Jack Sikma! Now there’s a blast from the past. One of the most accurate shooting centers to ever play the game. I believe he was also the only center to ever lead the NBA in FT shooting.
Liked that Supersonic team immensely, from the way they played to their green, gold and white uniforms. Of course, Lenny Wilkins coached them and the guards -- Gus Williams and the late, great Dennis Johnson -- shined, as did "Downtown" Freddy Brown. And Wally Walker had some Jack Marin moments. But Lenny really encouraged Skima to take those turnarounds from further and further out and then to just face the hoop and let it fly (which he really did later in Milwaukee). All while the blonde bangs were flopping.
 
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I as a fan won’t put a label on Aliyah Boston just yet! She has done things your “generational” players of the past hasn’t yet and she only a freshman. I will reserve that judgement before her senior season, but the fact that everyone has to question it really makes me believe she will be. I mean why else bring up this topic?
 
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oldude

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Liked that Supersonic team immensely, from the way they played to their green, gold and white uniforms. Of course, Lenny Wilkins coached them and the guards -- Gus Williams and the late, great Dennis Johnson -- shined, as did "Downtown" Freddy Brown. And Wally Walker had some Jack Marin moments. But Lenny really encouraged Skima to take those turnarounds from further and further out and then to just face the hoop and let it fly (which he really did later in Milwaukee). All while the blonde bangs were flopping.
Yes, I too followed the Supersonics back then. There was a guy I played against growing up named Frank Oleynick out of Notre Dame HS in Bridgeport, CT. He played college ball at the University of Seattle and was later drafted by the Supersonics. I followed his career in Seattle in the mid-70’s. He lasted only a couple seasons in pros. I’m not sure if Frank ever played with Sikma who I think was just starting his pro career about the time Frank was done.
 
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I as a fan won’t put a label on Aliyah Boston just yet! She has done things your “generational” players of the past hasn’t yet and she only a freshman. I will reserve that judgement before her senior season, but the fact that everyone has to question it really makes me believe she will be. I mean why else bring up this topic?
It was brought up by @BostonBay, who apparently is either an extreme S. Carolina homer troll or Boston's close relative, and started calling her "generational."
 
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UConn was awesome. Stewart was awesome.

there was a gigantic difference in the talent surrounding Stewie and Wilson.

put Wilson on a team with eventual all Americans surrounding her every year, she'd have won more titles.
 
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I agree that EDD should not be penalized for not winning a national championship. As others have noted, championships are team accomplishments.

Michael Jordan entered the NBA in 1984, racking up years of incredible performances, but he did not win an NBA title until 1991. Prior to 1991, teams such as the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons won championships because they had superior overall talent. It was only when Jordan had a strong supporting cast—especially Scottie Pippen—and a great coach, Phil Jackson, that the Bulls won 6 NBA titles.

Wayne Gretzky won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers in the 1980s. Those Oilers teams are considered by many observers to be the most talented in the history of the NHL. After Gretzky was traded in 1988, he never won another championship, because the three teams he played on—the Los Angeles Kings, the St. Louis Blues, and the New York Rangers—did not have enough overall talent to win the Stanley Cup.

A transcendent player can be phenomenally talented and be a prolific scorer, but if he or she doesn’t have a strong supporting cast, it can be very difficult to win a championship.
 
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You can have your opinion, and I can have mine. I liked Tina, but she was underwhelming sometimes. Many of her offensive rebounds were her own missed shots. I've only seen one game of Boston, and she was good. Even made 3s.
I think Tina Charles got such an awful rap. I think fans and the media fell for Geno's shtick hook-line-and-sinker. There is a rarely a player that isn't underwhelming sometimes. Sometimes DT, and STeiw and Maya were underwhelming too. Geno over-exaggerated her faults because before she came and after DT left UCONN got crushed by big, physical teams. I can recall going to one of the games and watched Geno bench her because of "body language."

Tina Charles was a super player. And Geno did a super job too. In Tina's frosh year she was Honorable Mention a/a. In her soph year she was 3rd team a/a. Yet we hear she was "disappointing" those 2 years? That's because Geno fed that to the media. As a coach he needed her to be 1st team a/a but as a frosh or a soph she wasn't while jr year she was top 10. That doesn't make her "disappointing."

Just because Geno or any coach doesn't accept certain things during the season doesn't mean we have to pretend we are the coach and do the same thing too. I feel you are doing this with Tina. IMO you're not giving credit to what she was - which was while being less skilled -she was a terrific athlete for her size. So teams couldn't stop her for getting that extra offensive rebound yet you are holding it against her because imo you recall all the things Geno was exaggerating to try to get her to be something she was too young to be.

Case in point you say her offensive rebounds were her own missed shots. So if she misses a shot and she gets the rebound and scores that is 50% fg%. If she misses two then scores it is 33%. If this happened so often and apparently you hold Boston in such high esteem because she doesn't do this as much- so can you explain why their FG%'s of Boston this year is equal is Tina's sr year? And for Tina's jr year she was slightly higher than this year's Boston right at 62% while Boston is 61.8%. So where are all these ORebounds from her missed shots coming from vs how is she able to have a slightly better fg% if she is missing so much and getting ORebounds from those misses? :)

Geno was just doing his job that a coach should do sometimes and that is ride your stars hard. Tina progressed every year the way a star should too. I get it though. You probably do have some memories of games she didn't play well and missed bunnies a lot. I respect what you're saying she was a bit underwhelming for you because of the type of player she was. Not your preferred type - we all have them. To me, she gets a bad rap just because Geno rode her hard and the media took Geno's comments too literal; just as if Geno were saying his post players are the worst in america and can't guard a chair etc.
 
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I think it is safer to wait till a player has put in more than just one season. I remember Paris's first season. She dominated so much it appeared that her team was unbeatable and that she would break all sorts of records by the time her college career was over. Well her production not only didn't get better but rather got worse each subsequent year. Teams figured out that if they speed up the game they could literally run her out of the game.
 
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There has been varying discussions of "Generational players" on the board this season be it Aliyah Boston, Sabrina Ionescu, Paige Bueckers or even Azzi Fudd. First a few points-generation is usually 20 years, so a "generational player" is alleged to be every 20 years. That's not quite right for us as we have seen Diana Taurasi, Maya Moore, Britany Griner and Breanna Stewart who all have been called "generational players" in the last 20 years. Second point is usually, you KNOW when you see one play and think, "wow, that's a great player". Which for any of the above, usually most people said that.

What I did was review the last 9 years of #1 and #2 prospects and the next 2 years from HS across the 3 rating agency's of HoopGurlz, Prospects Nation and Blue Star. I highlighted the consensus #1 players across all 3, there were only 4 of them (in yellow and green). I also highlighted all the women who became "All-American" by the time they graduated. As I said, "Generational players should clearly stand out not only above their class peers but their preceding and following classes as well. All that I listed above did that-stand out among their peers-prior, current and following class of players.

All that said, the script is not completely written as we are not quite halfway through the All-American opportunities for many of the players listed. On the list below, there is really on 1 player who would qualify as "generational" in Breanna Stewart-consensus #1, multiple All-American placements, multiple POY awards. WNBA ROY, WNBA Champion, WNBA MVP. Next "viable" might be A'ja Wilson but again she wasn't a consensus #1 nor did she win multiple POY. She did win WNBA ROY and is on the Olympic team short list. Sabrina wasn't even listed in the Top 2 by any of the 3 agency's (she was #3 in 2 of them). She might have the potential to be generational but she needs a title and more dominance to attain that. The hype and press about Paige and Azzi is now ramping up and we shall see that play out right before our eyes. Thanks to @Sluconn Husky and @Dillon77 for their help in gathering data!
Here's the list and let the discussion begin.
View attachment 50857
The only thing this proves...which I have stated many times....is it's subjective. There can be a consensus which is another thing I stated. This list does have some consensus players...but some are not on all three of the list. It's still opinions so there is no right or wrong choice for any individual to claim a player is a "generational" player. These girls were each voted on an individual basis.....it's just that some "individuals" agreed with other "individuals"......so back to my point. If a person...anyone.....thinks or says a player is a "generational" player in "their" eyes...you can not say they are wrong...you can ONLY disagree.
 

DefenseBB

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Umm, ok I guess. I mean I put the thread out there to create a discussion about “generational players” and get opinions which is EXACTLY what has happened and I think, been very informative and positive. I listed the last 11 years of HS rankings with some understanding of careers from the earlier names as an evidentiary aspect. Nothing more, nothing less. To come out like you just did “hey I am right and have said it many times” is disingenuous as no one said you were wrong nor is that what this thread is about.
We want discussion and don’t need 100% agreement. So I am not really sure why you injected your comments the way you did.
Give your opinion, listen to others and be ok with it. One person doesn’t need to be right and another person needs to be wrong.
 

CocoHusky

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UConn was awesome. Stewart was awesome.
there was a gigantic difference in the talent surrounding Stewie and Wilson.
put Wilson on a team with eventual all Americans surrounding her every year, she'd have won more titles.
I could easily flip that. Put freshman Stewie on a team that had been to the FF the year prior and that team would have won a championship and Stewie would have been starting. Pair Stewie with Tiff, and Coates and that would have resulted in another championship for SC. South Carolina with Harris and Stewie would have resulted in a better seed for SC and SC would have avoided UCONN in the regionals. Stewie at SC would have resulted in 3 Championships for SC not 1 which was all Wilson delivered.
 
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I could easily flip that. Put freshman Stewie on a team that had been to the FF the year prior and that team would have won a championship and Stewie would have been starting. Pair Stewie with Tiff, and Coates and that would have resulted in another championship for SC. South Carolina with Harris and Stewie would have resulted in a better seed for SC and SC would have avoided UCONN in the regionals. Stewie at SC would have resulted in 3 Championships for SC not 1 which was all Wilson delivered.
South Carolina lost to North Carolina in the Sweet 16 the year before Wilson enrolled.

They were a #1 seed and did not lose to UCONN in the tournament in either of the seasons that Stewie and Wilson overlapped.

In fact the only time they met UCONN in the tournament was Wilson's senior year.

Freshman: Final Four loss by 1 to Notre Dame
Sophomore: Loss to Syracuse in Sweet 16, two starting guards combined for zero points
Junior: Won National Championship
Senior: Lost in Elite Eight to UConn

If you want to assert that Stewie would have won titles the two years they could have switched, that's cool.

You really ought to post the respective lineups though. Maybe that would help you think it though.
 
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UConn was awesome. Stewart was awesome.

there was a gigantic difference in the talent surrounding Stewie and Wilson.

put Wilson on a team with eventual all Americans surrounding her every year, she'd have won more titles.
You can say that about any all-american. The all-americans surrounding Stewart were made better because of Stewart though. Stewart and Coates would have been a lot more lethal than Wilson and Coates.
 
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I think Tina Charles got such an awful rap. I think fans and the media fell for Geno's shtick hook-line-and-sinker. There is a rarely a player that isn't underwhelming sometimes. Sometimes DT, and STeiw and Maya were underwhelming too. Geno over-exaggerated her faults because before she came and after DT left UCONN got crushed by big, physical teams. I can recall going to one of the games and watched Geno bench her because of "body language."

Tina Charles was a super player. And Geno did a super job too. In Tina's frosh year she was Honorable Mention a/a. In her soph year she was 3rd team a/a. Yet we hear she was "disappointing" those 2 years? That's because Geno fed that to the media. As a coach he needed her to be 1st team a/a but as a frosh or a soph she wasn't while jr year she was top 10. That doesn't make her "disappointing."

Just because Geno or any coach doesn't accept certain things during the season doesn't mean we have to pretend we are the coach and do the same thing too. I feel you are doing this with Tina. IMO you're not giving credit to what she was - which was while being less skilled -she was a terrific athlete for her size. So teams couldn't stop her for getting that extra offensive rebound yet you are holding it against her because imo you recall all the things Geno was exaggerating to try to get her to be something she was too young to be.

Case in point you say her offensive rebounds were her own missed shots. So if she misses a shot and she gets the rebound and scores that is 50% fg%. If she misses two then scores it is 33%. If this happened so often and apparently you hold Boston in such high esteem because she doesn't do this as much- so can you explain why their FG%'s of Boston this year is equal is Tina's sr year? And for Tina's jr year she was slightly higher than this year's Boston right at 62% while Boston is 61.8%. So where are all these ORebounds from her missed shots coming from vs how is she able to have a slightly better fg% if she is missing so much and getting ORebounds from those misses? :)

Geno was just doing his job that a coach should do sometimes and that is ride your stars hard. Tina progressed every year the way a star should too. I get it though. You probably do have some memories of games she didn't play well and missed bunnies a lot. I respect what you're saying she was a bit underwhelming for you because of the type of player she was. Not your preferred type - we all have them. To me, she gets a bad rap just because Geno rode her hard and the media took Geno's comments too literal; just as if Geno were saying his post players are the worst in america and can't guard a chair etc.
Thanks Mrs. Charles.
I didn’t say Boston was a generational player. I have only seen her once, but I was impressed. Her range surprised me. Don’t remember Tina shooting 3s.
I loved Tina as a player, and more as a person. Very proud of her.
 

nwhoopfan

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Uh oh, UCLA coach Cori Close just called Ionecu a generational player during an interview. Somebody send her a link to this thread.
 
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So... why is Sue Bird seemingly, unanimously, not in this conversation? I guess I wouldn't call her a generational player either, but I question whether I conclude that due to an unfair bias. I think Sue Bird is the best PG of all-time, possibly including both men and women. I also don't think anyone like her is ever going to come along again. It's her decision-making, the way she leads, and that she also won't hesitate to turn it on and win the game. But she doesn't make the conversation. Why? Because she's not freak-ishly athletic like Maya, Stewie, EDD and Brittany Griner? Because she doesn't score like DT? Sue Bird is freak-ishly smart and in-control. Sue Bird does the job of PG better than I think anyone ever will again. Are the generational players required to play shooting guard or small forward? Does Lisa Leslie count as a center? How about Lauren Jackson? Is this designation of generational player unnecessarily biased towards tall players that shoot 3's?
 

CocoHusky

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So... why is Sue Bird seemingly, unanimously, not in this conversation? I guess I wouldn't call her a generational player either, but I question whether I conclude that due to an unfair bias. I think Sue Bird is the best PG of all-time, possibly including both men and women. I also don't think anyone like her is ever going to come along again. It's her decision-making, the way she leads, and that she also won't hesitate to turn it on and win the game. But she doesn't make the conversation. Why? Because she's not freak-ishly athletic like Maya, Stewie, EDD and Brittany Griner? Because she doesn't score like DT? Sue Bird is freak-ishly smart and in-control. Sue Bird does the job of PG better than I think anyone ever will again. Are the generational players required to play shooting guard or small forward? Does Lisa Leslie count as a center? How about Lauren Jackson? Is this designation of generational player unnecessarily biased towards tall players that shoot 3's?
I agree that Sue Bird is a terrific player and arguably the best PG of all time. That she falls short of being considered as generational player has nothing to do with her stature or the position she played. She is plenty athletic. Bird is a Lieberman, Wade and Naismith award winner. The biggest factor why Sue does not get consideration is simply because due to injury Sue only played in 8 games as a freshmen.
 
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I agree that Sue Bird is a terrific player and arguably the best PG of all time. That she falls short of being considered as generational player has nothing to do with her stature or the position she played. She is plenty athletic. Bird is a Lieberman, Wade and Naismith award winner. The biggest factor why Sue does not get consideration is simply because due to injury Sue only played in 8 games as a freshmen.
Given Sue's record in college, pros and as a member of the US National Team, if she isn't a generational player I just don't know who would be. If I'm picking an all time wbb team I'd have to think about who to take at 2' 3, 4 and 5, but for PG no hesitation - lace'um up Sue!
 
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Imo there has been 5 generational since 1995. Holdsclaw and Parker from Tennessee and Taurasi, Moore and Stewart from Uconn! These 5 players dominated college basketball like no others! 14 National Championships between them and if Candace stayed 1 more year! Maybe Uconn doesnt win in 2009 but none of them played each other in college!
Some will not believe it, but it was me who 1st used the term (s) generational/transcendent several years ago. The poster of the quote above has identified the players I also put into that category. I also included Delle Donne at the time, even though she did not play on a good team. Had she stayed at Uconn Geno would have two more Championships and her greatness universally recognized as it is now on the World Stage.

The original reason for my posting this was to point out that while yes Geno is a great coach and motivator, he also had three generational players accounting for all but two of his Championships. Had Taurasi, Moore, Stewie played at say, Notre Dame or Stanford, The total Championship picture would be very different.
 
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As great as she is, Sue Bird is a complementary player who can not carry a team on her back. Same for Tina Charles. Britney Griner the same.

I am really hoping Paige B is the 4th such Uconn player. However, time will tell. I was blown away by Brunelle's highlight reels on youtube, but she has looked much different the couple of times I've seen her on TV this year.
 

eebmg

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Given Sue's record in college, pros and as a member of the US National Team, if she isn't a generational player I just don't know who would be. If I'm picking an all time wbb team I'd have to think about who to take at 2' 3, 4 and 5, but for PG no hesitation - lace'um up Sue!
Maybe Sue is a 2 generational player. ;);)
 
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Some will not believe it, but it was me who 1st used the term (s) generational/transcendent several years ago. The poster of the quote above has identified the players I also put into that category. I also included Delle Donne at the time, even though she did not play on a good team. Had she stayed at Uconn Geno would have two more Championships and her greatness universally recognized as it is now on the World Stage.

The original reason for my posting this was to point out that while yes Geno is a great coach and motivator, he also had three generational players accounting for all but two of his Championships. Had Taurasi, Moore, Stewie played at say, Notre Dame or Stanford, The total Championship picture would be very different.
I said this about Taurasi and so did everyone else over 15 years ago! Especially her coach! So nice try!
 
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Had Taurasi, Moore, Stewie played at say, Notre Dame or Stanford, The total Championship picture would be very different.
Ehhh. If Phil Jax had not had Michael Jordan then he wouldn't have gotten the Laker job either; meaning he'd have won little. Had Red Aurebach not had Bill Russell . . .

The point is Geno hasn't wasted his opportunities when he has had these superstars resulting in others to follow. I wouldn't be surprised DT saw how the offense was run so she picked UCONN. Then Maya saw how the offense was run with a superstar like DT and then Stewie did the same with Maya.

I can remember arguing with a very sharp poster years ago when Maya committed to UCONN she thought UCONN would still be too small and that UCONN still needed a pf and Maya would just end up taking KG's minutes. I felt all along Maya could play the pf. Her counter was - wait until a team like Georgia has a tandem of 6'4 players- (not sure they ever got them) how is Maya going to defend that? I countered how are they going to guard Maya from shooting 3's? The superstar offensive player sees that Geno is going to do everything to help bring out their amazing talents. And when you have such a supreme player - more than likely you give that supreme player enough talent-- they'll win. It's the style Geno coaches to that attracts these supreme players.

The point is -- the superstar players- non-centers seem to visualize their style being successful in Geno's system just as the Lakers management visualized Shaq and Kobe working well in Phil Jax's system. He wouldn't have gotten that job if it wasn't for Jordan. So how many titles would he have had?

Now ofc this is a UCONN homer post-- but if I'm a supreme scorer or a supreme athletic big - I couldn't wait to play with Paige. Don't know why some bigs haven't come to UCONN in the past considering how great players like Tina and Stef turned out.
 

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