Generational Players-when can you tell?

[jumpstart]

There has been varying discussions of "Generational players" on the board this season be it Aliyah Boston, Sabrina Ionescu, Paige Bueckers or even Azzi Fudd. First a few points-generation is usually 20 years, so a "generational player" is alleged to be every 20 years. That's not quite right for us as we have seen Diana Taurasi, Maya Moore, Britany Griner and Breanna Stewart who all have been called "generational players" in the last 20 years. Second point is usually, you KNOW when you see one play and think, "wow, that's a great player". Which for any of the above, usually most people said that.

What I did was review the last 9 years of #1 and #2 prospects and the next 2 years from HS across the 3 rating agency's of HoopGurlz, Prospects Nation and Blue Star. I highlighted the consensus #1 players across all 3, there were only 4 of them (in yellow and green). I also highlighted all the women who became "All-American" by the time they graduated. As I said, "Generational players should clearly stand out not only above their class peers but their preceding and following classes as well. All that I listed above did that-stand out among their peers-prior, current and following class of players.

All that said, the script is not completely written as we are not quite halfway through the All-American opportunities for many of the players listed. On the list below, there is really on 1 player who would qualify as "generational" in Breanna Stewart-consensus #1, multiple All-American placements, multiple POY awards. WNBA ROY, WNBA Champion, WNBA MVP. Next "viable" might be A'ja Wilson but again she wasn't a consensus #1 nor did she win multiple POY. She did win WNBA ROY and is on the Olympic team short list. Sabrina wasn't even listed in the Top 2 by any of the 3 agency's (she was #3 in 2 of them). She might have the potential to be generational but she needs a title and more dominance to attain that. The hype and press about Paige and Azzi is now ramping up and we shall see that play out right before our eyes. Thanks to @Sluconn Husky and @Dillon77 for their help in gathering data!
Here's the list and let the discussion begin.
View attachment 50857

The only thing this proves...which I have stated many times....is it's subjective. There can be a consensus which is another thing I stated. This list does have some consensus players...but some are not on all three of the list. It's still opinions so there is no right or wrong choice for any individual to claim a player is a "generational" player. These girls were each voted on an individual basis.....it's just that some "individuals" agreed with other "individuals"......so back to my point. If a person...anyone.....thinks or says a player is a "generational" player in "their" eyes...you can not say they are wrong...you can ONLY disagree.

 

[DefenseBB]

Umm, ok I guess. I mean I put the thread out there to create a discussion about “generational players” and get opinions which is EXACTLY what has happened and I think, been very informative and positive. I listed the last 11 years of HS rankings with some understanding of careers from the earlier names as an evidentiary aspect. Nothing more, nothing less. To come out like you just did “hey I am right and have said it many times” is disingenuous as no one said you were wrong nor is that what this thread is about.
We want discussion and don’t need 100% agreement. So I am not really sure why you injected your comments the way you did.
Give your opinion, listen to others and be ok with it. One person doesn’t need to be right and another person needs to be wrong.

 

[CocoHusky]

UConn was awesome. Stewart was awesome.
there was a gigantic difference in the talent surrounding Stewie and Wilson.
put Wilson on a team with eventual all Americans surrounding her every year, she'd have won more titles.

I could easily flip that. Put freshman Stewie on a team that had been to the FF the year prior and that team would have won a championship and Stewie would have been starting. Pair Stewie with Tiff, and Coates and that would have resulted in another championship for SC. South Carolina with Harris and Stewie would have resulted in a better seed for SC and SC would have avoided UCONN in the regionals. Stewie at SC would have resulted in 3 Championships for SC not 1 which was all Wilson delivered.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I could easily flip that. Put freshman Stewie on a team that had been to the FF the year prior and that team would have won a championship and Stewie would have been starting. Pair Stewie with Tiff, and Coates and that would have resulted in another championship for SC. South Carolina with Harris and Stewie would have resulted in a better seed for SC and SC would have avoided UCONN in the regionals. Stewie at SC would have resulted in 3 Championships for SC not 1 which was all Wilson delivered.

South Carolina lost to North Carolina in the Sweet 16 the year before Wilson enrolled.

They were a #1 seed and did not lose to UCONN in the tournament in either of the seasons that Stewie and Wilson overlapped.

In fact the only time they met UCONN in the tournament was Wilson's senior year.

Freshman: Final Four loss by 1 to Notre Dame
Sophomore: Loss to Syracuse in Sweet 16, two starting guards combined for zero points
Junior: Won National Championship
Senior: Lost in Elite Eight to UConn

If you want to assert that Stewie would have won titles the two years they could have switched, that's cool.

You really ought to post the respective lineups though. Maybe that would help you think it though.

 

[hoophuskee]

UConn was awesome. Stewart was awesome.

there was a gigantic difference in the talent surrounding Stewie and Wilson.

put Wilson on a team with eventual all Americans surrounding her every year, she'd have won more titles.

You can say that about any all-american. The all-americans surrounding Stewart were made better because of Stewart though. Stewart and Coates would have been a lot more lethal than Wilson and Coates.

 

[uconnfan68]

I think Tina Charles got such an awful rap. I think fans and the media fell for Geno's shtick hook-line-and-sinker. There is a rarely a player that isn't underwhelming sometimes. Sometimes DT, and STeiw and Maya were underwhelming too. Geno over-exaggerated her faults because before she came and after DT left UCONN got crushed by big, physical teams. I can recall going to one of the games and watched Geno bench her because of "body language."

Tina Charles was a super player. And Geno did a super job too. In Tina's frosh year she was Honorable Mention a/a. In her soph year she was 3rd team a/a. Yet we hear she was "disappointing" those 2 years? That's because Geno fed that to the media. As a coach he needed her to be 1st team a/a but as a frosh or a soph she wasn't while jr year she was top 10. That doesn't make her "disappointing."

Just because Geno or any coach doesn't accept certain things during the season doesn't mean we have to pretend we are the coach and do the same thing too. I feel you are doing this with Tina. IMO you're not giving credit to what she was - which was while being less skilled -she was a terrific athlete for her size. So teams couldn't stop her for getting that extra offensive rebound yet you are holding it against her because imo you recall all the things Geno was exaggerating to try to get her to be something she was too young to be.

Case in point you say her offensive rebounds were her own missed shots. So if she misses a shot and she gets the rebound and scores that is 50% fg%. If she misses two then scores it is 33%. If this happened so often and apparently you hold Boston in such high esteem because she doesn't do this as much- so can you explain why their FG%'s of Boston this year is equal is Tina's sr year? And for Tina's jr year she was slightly higher than this year's Boston right at 62% while Boston is 61.8%. So where are all these ORebounds from her missed shots coming from vs how is she able to have a slightly better fg% if she is missing so much and getting ORebounds from those misses?

Geno was just doing his job that a coach should do sometimes and that is ride your stars hard. Tina progressed every year the way a star should too. I get it though. You probably do have some memories of games she didn't play well and missed bunnies a lot. I respect what you're saying she was a bit underwhelming for you because of the type of player she was. Not your preferred type - we all have them. To me, she gets a bad rap just because Geno rode her hard and the media took Geno's comments too literal; just as if Geno were saying his post players are the worst in america and can't guard a chair etc.

Thanks Mrs. Charles.
I didn’t say Boston was a generational player. I have only seen her once, but I was impressed. Her range surprised me. Don’t remember Tina shooting 3s.
I loved Tina as a player, and more as a person. Very proud of her.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Uh oh, UCLA coach Cori Close just called Ionecu a generational player during an interview. Somebody send her a link to this thread.

 

[Moose]

So... why is Sue Bird seemingly, unanimously, not in this conversation? I guess I wouldn't call her a generational player either, but I question whether I conclude that due to an unfair bias. I think Sue Bird is the best PG of all-time, possibly including both men and women. I also don't think anyone like her is ever going to come along again. It's her decision-making, the way she leads, and that she also won't hesitate to turn it on and win the game. But she doesn't make the conversation. Why? Because she's not freak-ishly athletic like Maya, Stewie, EDD and Brittany Griner? Because she doesn't score like DT? Sue Bird is freak-ishly smart and in-control. Sue Bird does the job of PG better than I think anyone ever will again. Are the generational players required to play shooting guard or small forward? Does Lisa Leslie count as a center? How about Lauren Jackson? Is this designation of generational player unnecessarily biased towards tall players that shoot 3's?

 

[CocoHusky]

So... why is Sue Bird seemingly, unanimously, not in this conversation? I guess I wouldn't call her a generational player either, but I question whether I conclude that due to an unfair bias. I think Sue Bird is the best PG of all-time, possibly including both men and women. I also don't think anyone like her is ever going to come along again. It's her decision-making, the way she leads, and that she also won't hesitate to turn it on and win the game. But she doesn't make the conversation. Why? Because she's not freak-ishly athletic like Maya, Stewie, EDD and Brittany Griner? Because she doesn't score like DT? Sue Bird is freak-ishly smart and in-control. Sue Bird does the job of PG better than I think anyone ever will again. Are the generational players required to play shooting guard or small forward? Does Lisa Leslie count as a center? How about Lauren Jackson? Is this designation of generational player unnecessarily biased towards tall players that shoot 3's?

I agree that Sue Bird is a terrific player and arguably the best PG of all time. That she falls short of being considered as generational player has nothing to do with her stature or the position she played. She is plenty athletic. Bird is a Lieberman, Wade and Naismith award winner. The biggest factor why Sue does not get consideration is simply because due to injury Sue only played in 8 games as a freshmen.

 

[and one]

I agree that Sue Bird is a terrific player and arguably the best PG of all time. That she falls short of being considered as generational player has nothing to do with her stature or the position she played. She is plenty athletic. Bird is a Lieberman, Wade and Naismith award winner. The biggest factor why Sue does not get consideration is simply because due to injury Sue only played in 8 games as a freshmen.

Given Sue's record in college, pros and as a member of the US National Team, if she isn't a generational player I just don't know who would be. If I'm picking an all time wbb team I'd have to think about who to take at 2' 3, 4 and 5, but for PG no hesitation - lace'um up Sue!

 

[VidNick]

Imo there has been 5 generational since 1995. Holdsclaw and Parker from Tennessee and Taurasi, Moore and Stewart from Uconn! These 5 players dominated college basketball like no others! 14 National Championships between them and if Candace stayed 1 more year! Maybe Uconn doesnt win in 2009 but none of them played each other in college!

Some will not believe it, but it was me who 1st used the term (s) generational/transcendent several years ago. The poster of the quote above has identified the players I also put into that category. I also included Delle Donne at the time, even though she did not play on a good team. Had she stayed at Uconn Geno would have two more Championships and her greatness universally recognized as it is now on the World Stage.

The original reason for my posting this was to point out that while yes Geno is a great coach and motivator, he also had three generational players accounting for all but two of his Championships. Had Taurasi, Moore, Stewie played at say, Notre Dame or Stanford, The total Championship picture would be very different.

 

[VidNick]

As great as she is, Sue Bird is a complementary player who can not carry a team on her back. Same for Tina Charles. Britney Griner the same.

I am really hoping Paige B is the 4th such Uconn player. However, time will tell. I was blown away by Brunelle's highlight reels on youtube, but she has looked much different the couple of times I've seen her on TV this year.

 

[eebmg]

Given Sue's record in college, pros and as a member of the US National Team, if she isn't a generational player I just don't know who would be. If I'm picking an all time wbb team I'd have to think about who to take at 2' 3, 4 and 5, but for PG no hesitation - lace'um up Sue!

Maybe Sue is a 2 generational player.

 

[cbraarj]

Some will not believe it, but it was me who 1st used the term (s) generational/transcendent several years ago. The poster of the quote above has identified the players I also put into that category. I also included Delle Donne at the time, even though she did not play on a good team. Had she stayed at Uconn Geno would have two more Championships and her greatness universally recognized as it is now on the World Stage.

The original reason for my posting this was to point out that while yes Geno is a great coach and motivator, he also had three generational players accounting for all but two of his Championships. Had Taurasi, Moore, Stewie played at say, Notre Dame or Stanford, The total Championship picture would be very different.

I said this about Taurasi and so did everyone else over 15 years ago! Especially her coach! So nice try!

 

[hoophuskee]

Had Taurasi, Moore, Stewie played at say, Notre Dame or Stanford, The total Championship picture would be very different.

Ehhh. If Phil Jax had not had Michael Jordan then he wouldn't have gotten the Laker job either; meaning he'd have won little. Had Red Aurebach not had Bill Russell . . .

The point is Geno hasn't wasted his opportunities when he has had these superstars resulting in others to follow. I wouldn't be surprised DT saw how the offense was run so she picked UCONN. Then Maya saw how the offense was run with a superstar like DT and then Stewie did the same with Maya.

I can remember arguing with a very sharp poster years ago when Maya committed to UCONN she thought UCONN would still be too small and that UCONN still needed a pf and Maya would just end up taking KG's minutes. I felt all along Maya could play the pf. Her counter was - wait until a team like Georgia has a tandem of 6'4 players- (not sure they ever got them) how is Maya going to defend that? I countered how are they going to guard Maya from shooting 3's? The superstar offensive player sees that Geno is going to do everything to help bring out their amazing talents. And when you have such a supreme player - more than likely you give that supreme player enough talent-- they'll win. It's the style Geno coaches to that attracts these supreme players.

The point is -- the superstar players- non-centers seem to visualize their style being successful in Geno's system just as the Lakers management visualized Shaq and Kobe working well in Phil Jax's system. He wouldn't have gotten that job if it wasn't for Jordan. So how many titles would he have had?

Now ofc this is a UCONN homer post-- but if I'm a supreme scorer or a supreme athletic big - I couldn't wait to play with Paige. Don't know why some bigs haven't come to UCONN in the past considering how great players like Tina and Stef turned out.

 

[cbraarj]

Ehhh. If Phil Jax had not had Michael Jordan then he wouldn't have gotten the Laker job either; meaning he'd have won little. Had Red Aurebach not had Bill Russell . . .

The point is Geno hasn't wasted his opportunities when he has had these superstars resulting in others to follow. I wouldn't be surprised DT saw how the offense was run so she picked UCONN. Then Maya saw how the offense was run with a superstar like DT and then Stewie did the same with Maya.

I can remember arguing with a very sharp poster years ago when Maya committed to UCONN she thought UCONN would still be too small and that UCONN still needed a pf and Maya would just end up taking KG's minutes. I felt all along Maya could play the pf. Her counter was - wait until a team like Georgia has a tandem of 6'4 players- (not sure they ever got them) how is Maya going to defend that? I countered how are they going to guard Maya from shooting 3's? The superstar offensive player sees that Geno is going to do everything to help bring out their amazing talents. And when you have such a supreme player - more than likely you give that supreme player enough talent-- they'll win. It's the style Geno coaches to that attracts these supreme players.

The point is -- the superstar players- non-centers seem to visualize their style being successful in Geno's system just as the Lakers management visualized Shaq and Kobe working well in Phil Jax's system. He wouldn't have gotten that job if it wasn't for Jordan. So how many titles would he have had?

Now ofc this is a UCONN homer post-- but if I'm a supreme scorer or a supreme athletic big - I couldn't wait to play with Paige. Don't know why some bigs haven't come to UCONN in the past considering how great players like Tina and Stef turned out.

Taurasi a Lakers fan whose team had the nickname of Showtime because of their play! Dee said Uconn was the WCBB team who played Showtime basketball and that's where she wanted to go!

 

[hoophuskee]

Taurasi a Lakers fan whose team had the nickname of Showtime because of their play! Dee said Uconn was the WCBB team who played Showtime basketball and that's where she wanted to go!

I didn't know that or forgot that.

But there is different philosophies. Kim Mulkey and Geno are very different for example.

It's unfortunate we lost Boykin. Camara never healthy, and Stevens left after 1 year. You don't need "6'4 and 6'4 size," but you do need "enough size." Last year and this year it appears we don't have "enough size" while you also need to count on experience and enough interior athleticism to counter the other team's bigs.

I prefer "Showtime." Other coaches and fans -- even fans on here -- they don't. IMO players like DT, Maya and Stewie they don't want to play "grind basketball." They want to run; that's "Showtime.". So it makes absolute sense what you're saying about DT.

 

[Alydar]

I didn't know that or forgot that.

But there is different philosophies. Kim Mulkey and Geno are very different for example.

It's unfortunate we lost Boykin. Camara never healthy, and Stevens left after 1 year. You don't need "6'4 and 6'4 size," but you do need "enough size." Last year and this year it appears we don't have "enough size" while you also need to count on experience and enough interior athleticism to counter the other team's bigs.

I prefer "Showtime." Other coaches and fans -- even fans on here -- they don't. IMO players like DT, Maya and Stewie they don't want to play "grind basketball." They want to run; that's "Showtime.". So it makes absolute sense what you're saying about DT.

The Celtics didn't play "grind" basketball, they ran. But they were never "showtime". To me "showtime" is flash, showing off, not the pace of play. James Worthy was showtime. Larry Bird was MVP. I'm glad Taurasi mistook her perception of what the Huskies were about but Geno has never been a showtime coach.

If you have to debate if an athlete was a generational player they weren't Ask anyone if Tiger Woods was a generational player and except for those who simply hate him the answer is quickly, yes.

Basketball? Wilt. He dominated the sport from his rookie year to when he left. Jordan didn't dominate until Bird and Johnson retired. Wilt scored 50 in like 25 straight games. Scored 100 in a game.

Football? I think Jim Brown and Lawrence Taylor.

Baseball? Babe Ruth and Mariano Rivera.

 

[hoophuskee]

The Celtics didn't play "grind" basketball, they ran. But they were never "showtime". To me "showtime" is flash, showing off, not the pace of play. James Worthy was showtime. Larry Bird was MVP. I'm glad Taurasi mistook her perception of what the Huskies were about but Geno has never been a showtime coach.

If you have to debate if an athlete was a generational player they weren't Ask anyone if Tiger Woods was a generational player and except for those who simply hate him the answer is quickly, yes.

Basketball? Wilt. He dominated the sport from his rookie year to when he left. Jordan didn't dominate until Bird and Johnson retired. Wilt scored 50 in like 25 straight games. Scored 100 in a game.

Football? I think Jim Brown and Lawrence Taylor.

Baseball? Babe Ruth and Mariano Rivera.

You're right regarding "Showtime" That was all Lakers. . I was using DT's context. And UCONN is a "show" to opposing fans imo. But it isn't "Lakers Showtime." You're right. I enjoy UCONN's offensive execution which to me is a show. ANd it must've been for DT.

For me-- I love fastbreak basketball. The Celts and the Lakers played uptempo basketball. Geno looks to push his teams to play fast-paced uptempo basketball.

Off-topic: But . . . are you trying to say Bird and Johnson were greater than Jordan though? I enjoyed Bird the most because I love shooters that can score. But you aren't suggesting Bird was greater than Jordan, are you? Or Magic?

 

[VidNick]

I said this about Taurasi and so did everyone else over 15 years ago! Especially her coach! So nice try!

Then I brought it back to the forefront. However, the context I used it in was different: To point out that 9 of Geno's 11 Championships included players that were among the top players of all time, not just because of their talent, but their will to win. I pointed it out as a counter to Geno can walk on water posters.

 

[sivad40]

The Celtics didn't play "grind" basketball, they ran. But they were never "showtime". To me "showtime" is flash, showing off, not the pace of play. James Worthy was showtime. Larry Bird was MVP. I'm glad Taurasi mistook her perception of what the Huskies were about but Geno has never been a showtime coach.

If you have to debate if an athlete was a generational player they weren't Ask anyone if Tiger Woods was a generational player and except for those who simply hate him the answer is quickly, yes.

Basketball? Wilt. He dominated the sport from his rookie year to when he left. Jordan didn't dominate until Bird and Johnson retired. Wilt scored 50 in like 25 straight games. Scored 100 in a game.

Football? I think Jim Brown and Lawrence Taylor.

Baseball? Babe Ruth and Mariano Rivera.

Jordan won his first NBA championship against Magic Johnson and the Lakers and Bird was still an active player when that happened.

 

[VidNick]

Uh oh, UCLA coach Cori Close just called Ionecu a generational player during an interview. Somebody send her a link to this thread.

She is. When I saw her blow up the McDonalds game her senior HS season, I thought she had a chance. She has been the leader of the Oregon team since her freshman season.

 

[MilfordHusky]

Sabrina has blown away the record for triple-doubles, and her team has become hugely successful. I’d call that generational.

 

[hoophuskee]

Then I brought it back to the forefront. However, the context I used it in was different: To point out that 9 of Geno's 11 Championships included players that were among the top players of all time, not just because of their talent, but their will to win. I pointed it out as a counter to Geno can walk on water posters.

Those posters are correct. The context of your point imo is wrong.

 

[VidNick]

Those posters are correct. The context of your point imo is wrong.

So Geno walks on water? I would take Muffet in a game situation any time. It has only been the last few years that she has taken recruiting to a Uconn level.

 

[VidNick]

As a Uconn grad I took an interest in the Women around 1991 or so. Developed an interest in women's basketball in general. Saw many Uconn games in person till moving out of State. Anyway, in talking about generational players, the best woman's player college player I have ever seen is Jackie Stiles. She played the game like the men. A tremendous pure shooter who could also take it to the basket. She took a nothing team to the final four. Over 50% shooter in all four years. 45% three-point shooter. She was WNBA rookie of the year and then boom: one significant injury after another. She would have been an all-time great as a pro.

 

[hoophuskee]

So Geno walks on water? I would take Muffet in a game situation any time. It has only been the last few years that she has taken recruiting to a Uconn level.

Yes -- just don't take it literal. He isn't God. But if you tone it down a notch in terms of context and consider he is "Phil Jackson" and "Red Auerbach"-- if those guys "walked on water" then so has Geno.

As for the bold-- please define "the last few years" vs how many years has she been competing vs UCONN? Unfortunately we can''t go back-and-forth much more. After this post - you can have last word. The mods won't want a lot of back-and-forth so have at it.

You take Muffett I'll easily take Geno. His 36-1 team from 3 years ago in which his team had no business going 36-1 was nothing short of amazing. Transforming Gabby to being such a "NATIONAL" beast as an inside forward and winning so much and being so dominant for such a small team was amazing. IMO you put way too much emphasis on a last second jump shots in one-and-done tournament specifically designed to try to get upsets.

The fact that you are trying t take away in any manner success form Geno because he has gotten DT, Maya and Stewart is just preposterous.

The campus of UCONN is not as flashy as other campus such as ND. The conference UCONN is currently in stinks. Yet how many more excuses will you and others keep providing if UCONN gets Fudd? Geno promotes a style of play which gets these type of players. You might mistakenly isolate this by calling it "recruiting only." But style of play is more that recruiting too as i gave the Maya Moore example previously. Some coaches would have had her play sf. When Geno/UCONN got DT she thought of UCONN as "Showtime." That's part of coaching. Yet you seem to want to minimize style of play. That's part of coaching. That's teh same style Stewart sees etc.

A final point. There was a poster on here whom I think got a few "likes" identified the 36-1 team from years ago as "less than stellar." Can you imagine what that poster along with others who agreed would have been thinking as a ND fan in the 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 seasons in which his team got upset in the S16 and E8 even though they were a favorite / and a number 1 seed? How was Mufftet's in game coaching then?

So yeah -- in context- if you win 11 championships you can claim you have walked on water.

 

[Scud49]

Basketball? Wilt. He dominated the sport from his rookie year to when he left. Jordan didn't dominate until Bird and Johnson retired. Wilt scored 50 in like 25 straight games. Scored 100 in a game.

And Bill Russell outfoxed him and the Celtics won time after time after time. Wilt was tremendous, but Russ was THE team player of that era - and knew how to win.

 

[sivad40]

You take Muffett I'll easily take Geno. His 36-1 team from 3 years ago in which his team had no business going 36-1 was nothing short of amazing. Transforming Gabby to being such a "NATIONAL" beast as an inside forward and winning so much and being so dominant for such a small team was amazing. IMO you put way too much emphasis on a last second jump shots in one-and-done tournament specifically designed to try to get upsets.

Geno did have something to work with. That UConn team had a player who was the consensus ran #1 coming out of high school, 3 other players who ranked in the top 10 coming out of high school, and another player who was ranked as the best player coming out of her country.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Is someone suggesting Larry Brod wasn't a show-off? Ha.