Game of Thrones Season 8



ZooCougar

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They are all killers. She is no better than the Lannisters when they sacked Kings Landing, which was their original sin. She is actually much worse.
She is about the same only with a much more powerful weapon. The world will be a better place without the Lannisters.
 

ZooCougar

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I wanted something believable. You don't go from Selfless Savoir of the World to Beelzebub because you are sads your friend die. Not in a flash. That is just dumb writing you would acknowledge as such if you weren't invested in this crap storm after 8 years of fandom.
I think she went dark two seasons ago. People just haven’t been looking at it objectively.
 
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I think she went dark two seasons ago. People just haven’t been looking at it objectively.
No, you're finding retroactive excuses that do not outweigh the totality of the character development and storylines. The show writers had two queens. One refused to set aside personal goals for mankind and the other sacrificed her ambitions to save others. They made it clear who the good queen was and who the bad queen was. It wasn't tinctured with grey. Then, after losing nearly all, the Savoir is Villian.

That is piss poor writing. Make her evil, you could do it. But it wasn't done beforehand and it wasn't adequately done in the space of one episode between saving the world and slaughtering people who'd already surrendered. The scrunchie-face, I-am-mad-because-Jon-won't-screw-me look doesn't suffice for hero-to-villian character development.

The show is trash.
 

Horatio

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After 24 hours to contemplate, & after a partial re-watch last night, here's my take on the destruction of King's landing: It was the calculated put the fear of God moment into Cersei by Danaerys.
Fact: The Mad King had deposited stores of Wildfire beneath every important building.
Fact: Cersei had asked HER Hand if the rumors were true before ultimately blowing up the Cathedral of the Seven Gods with wildfire. If the stores were widely rumored, then Dany had to know about them due to her lineage, & the fact that Cersei had demonstrated their existence.
By taking the thermonuclear approach to Kings Landing she accomplished the following:
1. She destroyed those munitions so that they couldn't be used against her in the future
2. She checkmated Cersei:
Cersei wasn't afraid to use wildfire, as she had blown away her enemies with it in the past. She didn't care about the citizenry, she only used them as a shield. Her fatal error was not taking Dany's determination into account. She thought that Dany would spare the common folk if her armies surrendered, OR she would blow up Dany's forces & sack the City herself with wildfire to win the battle. She also erroneously thought that her batteries of Scorpions would take out Drogon.
Danaerys's statement in effect: You've opposed me on every occasion: You refused to join the fray against the White Walkers, & instead fortified yourself with the mercenaries of the Iron Bank. You
refused my surrender terms & invited this battle by slaughtering Missandei in front of me, thus inviting my death sentence upon you. I've destroyed your troops, your weapons, now I'm going to destroy you!
Danaerys has been consistent: You bend the knee to her or you die. If you break your oath to her, you die.
The only problem is that she has backed herself into a corner with this approach. Kings Landing can be rebuilt. The public trust is another matter.
Thank you. Dany simply did not trust a smooth, uneventful surrender by Cersei and her team. People forget that Cersei and Qyburn used the common children of the city to carry out the destruction of the citadel. I’m Sure Dany was aware of this.
 

intlzncster

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I wanted something believable. You don't go from Selfless Savoir of the World to Beelzebub because you are sads your friend die. Not in a flash. That is just dumb writing you would acknowledge as such if you weren't invested in this crap storm after 8 years of fandom.
Sure if you ignore the the 50 odd plot points or counter examples to the contrary over the course of the series. Many mentioned in this thread. Reality is, she hasn't been the selfless savior for a while now.

Ultimately, unlike most viewers, she didn't view all those people as innocents, despite Tyrion's protestations to the contrary. She saw a continent of people who didn't bend the knee, and as such, should burn.

I thought a lot of things could have been done better the last two seasons. Was ithe attack abrupt? Sure. It felt rushed in the moment like practally every other plot device they've employed lately. They could have written that particular moment more cleanly.

But to say she went from good to bad in an instant (or that it was simply because her handmaiden was killed) is disingenuous. It's been happening for a while now.
 

Horatio

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No, you're finding retroactive excuses that do not outweigh the totality of the character development and storylines. The show writers had two queens. One refused to set aside personal goals for mankind and the other sacrificed her ambitions to save others. They made it clear who the good queen was and who the bad queen was. It wasn't tinctured with grey. Then, after losing nearly all, the Savoir is Villian.

That is piss poor writing. Make her evil, you could do it. But it wasn't done beforehand and it wasn't adequately done in the space of one episode between saving the world and slaughtering people who'd already surrendered. The scrunchie-face, I-am-mad-because-Jon-won't-screw-me look doesn't suffice for hero-to-villian character development.

The show is trash.
So True. They ruined the show by shoving everything into 6 final episodes. It became a Marvel movie. They didn’t even define the time span to traumatic incident ratio. From the looks of it, Dany lost half the Dothraki,
Jorah, Missandei, A Dragon, Jon Snow and
Avoided Vairys’s poisoning in the span of less than 2 weeks. Realistically The woman probably shouldn’t have participated in that last battle.
 
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intlzncster

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No, you're finding retroactive excuses that do not outweigh the totality of the character development and storylines. The show writers had two queens. One refused to set aside personal goals for mankind and the other sacrificed her ambitions to save others. .
No man,she went North because of Jon. Without Jon, she doesn't help the North first. They said as much in the show She then loses Jon in more ways than one. (I think if she'd known his birthrigh ahead of time, she might have just let him die up there)

She's always been one of the most selfish characters in the show.
 
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No man,she went North because of Jon. Without Jon, she doesn't help the North first. They said as much in the show She then loses Jon in more ways than one. (I think if she'd known his birthrigh ahead of time, she might have just let him die up there)

Heck, did you watch the preview before hand? Everything said and done in previous scenes pointed towards this.
Come on. She stayed in Mereen an extra season just to make sure slaves were not re-enslaved after she left. She set aside her ambitions to do the right thing for others. Why are people just pretending seven seasons of do-gooderism away to defend trash story writing?
 

Horatio

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Come on. She stayed in Mereen an extra season just to make sure slaves were not re-enslaved after she left. She set aside her ambitions to do the right thing for others. Why are people just pretending seven seasons of do-gooderism away to defend trash story writing?
Exactly
 

Horatio

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And how do explain killing her off next episode when the biggest existing military power, The Dothraki/Unsullied + one Dragon, is loyal/ devoted to her. It’s a mess.
 

intlzncster

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Come on. She stayed in Mereen an extra season just to make sure slaves were not re-enslaved after she left. She set aside her ambitions to do the right thing for others. Why are people just pretending seven seasons of do-gooderism away to defend trash story writing?
Because you view it black and white. You set aside all the times she was utterly ruthless, simply to further her own goals. Dany was a duality, good person vs tyrant (Targaryen).

I viewed it as her being totally alone. Outside of greyworm, I think she feels as if she has no true allies left. It's a little nuts (as most Targaryens seem to be), but she clearly feels she's been betrayed at every turn. As Master Aemon says,'a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing'.
 

intlzncster

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And how do explain killing her off next episode when the biggest existing military power, The Dothraki/Unsullied + one Dragon, is loyal/ devoted to her. It’s a mess.
Arya sneaking? Jon knife in the back?

Tyrion's probably getting burned at the stake, so I doubt he'll do it. But it would be interesting if he did. The Queenslayer to Jaime's Kingslayer.
 
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Because you view it black and white. You set aside all the times she was utterly ruthless, simply to further her own goals.
Bullcrap. It's just the opposite. You are pretending that there is no ruthlessness in good people. That executing someone holding you captive or conspiring to dethrone you is sufficient reason to expect someone to turn into Sauron if she gets too sad. Except, you are only pretending for Duality Dany. Good Jon and Honorable Ned can ruthlessly execute people and still remain just good.
 

ZooCougar

Shut Up Carl.
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No, you're finding retroactive excuses that do not outweigh the totality of the character development and storylines. The show writers had two queens. One refused to set aside personal goals for mankind and the other sacrificed her ambitions to save others. They made it clear who the good queen was and who the bad queen was. It wasn't tinctured with grey. Then, after losing nearly all, the Savoir is Villian.

That is piss poor writing. Make her evil, you could do it. But it wasn't done beforehand and it wasn't adequately done in the space of one episode between saving the world and slaughtering people who'd already surrendered. The scrunchie-face, I-am-mad-because-Jon-won't-screw-me look doesn't suffice for hero-to-villian character development.

The show is trash.
I think she spent those years abroad building an army big enough to take the Iron Throne. It wasn’t totally altruistic.

I think her isolation in Westeros put her over the edge. She was used to being loved and when she wasn’t the only game in town she reacted poorly. She has always been volatile.

Incinerating the Tarlys was probably a bad move too.
 

ZooCougar

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Bullcrap. It's just the opposite. You are pretending that there is no ruthlessness in good people. That executing someone holding you captive or conspiring to dethrone you is sufficient reason to expect someone to turn into Sauron if she gets too sad. Except, you are only pretending for Duality Dany. Good Jon and Honorable Ned can ruthlessly execute people and still remain just good.
It’s not about ruthlessness on its own. It’s applying it correctly. She definitely had a tendency to misapply it arguably.
 
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I think she spent those years abroad building an army big enough to take the Iron Throne. It wasn’t totally altruistic.

I think her isolation in Westeros put her over the edge. She was used to being loved and when she wasn’t the only game in town she reacted poorly. She has always been volatile.

Incinerating the Tarlys was probably a bad move too.
Why was executing the Tarly's worse than Ned executing the Night Watch man fleeing a whitewalker or Jon executing a prebuscent boy? You say so, the show tried to tell us it was so in order to provide the patina of character development. But why? It just isn't. They chose death over swearing allegiance and joining the Night's Watch.

I am sorry. Draw distinctions all you like. It is silly to claim they are different enough to presage Sauron Dany.
 

intlzncster

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Bullcrap. It's just the opposite. You are pretending that there is no ruthlessness in good people. That executing someone holding you captive or conspiring to dethrone you is sufficient reason to expect someone to turn into Sauron if she gets too sad. Except, you are only pretending for Duality Dany. Good Jon and Honorable Ned can ruthlessly execute people and still remain just good.
And you make her emotionally flat/rational, when she's anything but. she's the most high strung character in the show. You give no credence to Targaryen madness. She's had signs of it here and there for a while now. Just took enough punches in the gut to bring it out. By definition,madness isn't rational.

Would have been better if she flew straight to the red Keep. And they had a few scorpions hidden throughout the City. They fire post surrender, and she destroys the entire City in retribution.

EOD she had made a firm decision to rule by fear. No one in Kings landing bent the knee. If you don't bend the knee you burn.
 
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And you make her emotionally flat/rational, when she's anything but. she's the most high strung character in the show. You give no credence to Targaryen madness. She's had signs of it here and there for a while now. Just took enough punches in the gut to bring it out. By definition,madness isn't rational.

Would have been better if she flew straight to the red Keep. And they had a few scorpions hidden throughout the City. They fire post surrender, and she destroys the entire City in retribution.

EOD she had made a firm decision to rule by fear. No one in Kings landing bent the knee. If you don't bend the knee you burn.
I expect her to stay in character unless given reason to believe otherwise. Being alone is insufficient. She was alone for the first few seasons and won her following. Being sads and mads and upset with people standing in the way of her rule is insufficient. She chose to marry one of Mereen's masters instead of burning them in just such a situation.

You want her to be evil? Fine. I usually prefer the villains over the heros myself. But don't ask me to pretend the transformation was done with a modicum of skill and deftness. It was like watching Luke Skywalker try and kill his nephew all over again. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
 
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I expect her to stay in character unless given reason to believe otherwise. Being alone is insufficient. She was alone for the first few seasons and won her following. Being sads and mads and upset with people standing in the way of her rule is insufficient. She chose to marry one of Mereen's masters instead of burning them in just such a situation.

You want her to be evil? Fine. I usually prefer the villains over the heros myself. But don't ask me to pretend the transformation was done with a modicum of skill and deftness. It was like watching Luke Skywalker try and kill his nephew all over again. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Did you just spoil one of the new Star Wars movies?
 

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