FYI - A bunch of smoke over at the Oklahoma CR Board

[whaler11]

With the trend of ESPN (and by default, I'm sure others) wanting to spend less, there is zero reason for any conference to add anyone. The Big 12 may add some as a result of some infighting of rooster measuring proportions. They may be sending out the only life rafts going out for quite some time. If we don't get one, it may be game, set, and match for us. It has been almost three years since the last raft went out. I know we are a longshot, but so was Louisville to the ACC at one point. Whatever the negative narrative out there I hope to hell were trying to change it behind the scenes, not sitting back conceding that anyone else is a "better fit".

I have been fairly confident that in the end UConn would end up in the ACC after the Big Ten grabbed a couple of schools from them.

The ESPN cost cutting I think is the worst news we've gotten since Louisville left.

I hope that the Big Ten truthers are proven right. It may end up the only hope.

 

[noeynox]

I have been fairly confident that in the end UConn would end up in the ACC after the Big Ten grabbed a couple of schools from them.

The ESPN cost cutting I think is the worst news we've gotten since Louisville left.

I hope that the Big Ten truthers are proven right. It may end up the only hope.

Best fit yes, most likely to have invites going out, has been the Big 12, I've been saying for years that is our best bet. I hope your right and the Big Ten plucks a few ACC schools, but I'm not seeing it right now.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think ESPN cost cutting will hit the top talent and maybe a little bit of headcount a lot more than it will hit the rights fees. Arguing that rights fees will be reduced across the board solely because of ESPN is kind of like saying share prices will drop just because Fidelity wants them to. There are other buyers in the market besides ESPN, ao ESPN does not get to unilaterally decide what the price is.

Unless there is a backdoor in the GOR, I just don't see how either the Big 12 or ACC lose any teams for the duration of the agreements. A GOR is not something you just buy your way out of, and the case law on the sale of media rights is pretty solid. So unless there is some kind of out that we do not know about like the ACC GOR is invalid if there is no ACC Network, I don't see anyone going anywhere.

I do think this leaves the Big 12 with a mild reason to expand that should be enough to get them to add 2 teams. I am less clear on what would drive the ACC or Big 10 to do anything at this point.

 

[noeynox]

I think ESPN cost cutting will hit the top talent and maybe a little bit of headcount a lot more than it will hit the rights fees. Arguing that rights fees will be reduced across the board solely because of ESPN is kind of like saying share prices will drop just because Fidelity wants them to. There are other buyers in the market besides ESPN, ao ESPN does not get to unilaterally decide what the price is.

Unless there is a backdoor in the GOR, I just don't see how either the Big 12 or ACC lose any teams for the duration of the agreements. A GOR is not something you just buy your way out of, and the case law on the sale of media rights is pretty solid. So unless there is some kind of out that we do not know about like the ACC GOR is invalid if there is no ACC Network, I don't see anyone going anywhere.

I do think this leaves the Big 12 with a mild reason to expand that should be enough to get them to add 2 teams. I am less clear on what would drive the ACC or Big 10 to do anything at this point.

ESPN doesn't set the price, but they're cutting costs because because cable subscriber numbers are going down and affecting their bottom line. Common sense dictates it will affect the bottom line of the "other buyers" in the market as well. Fox may see this as an opportunity to really make a dent against ESPN in terms of content they own, but that may be a stretch. NBCSN, and CBSSN, were both cheapskates before and I doubt this ever changes.

 

[whaler11]

I'm not sure how Fox being in the market would help the ACC.

My point on ESPN's issues is that if they lost two teams they might not backfill if it means ESPN is paying two AAC teams 10x their current revenue.

I agree though that it looks like inertia if the Big 12 keeps their Jenga tower upright.

How would the bigger spender in the market being less aggressive not reduce rights fees? There are really only two players for the major college properties - if one of them isn't running the prices up in competition why would the other.

 

[Drew]

I have been fairly confident that in the end UConn would end up in the ACC after the Big Ten grabbed a couple of schools from them.

The ESPN cost cutting I think is the worst news we've gotten since Louisville left.

I hope that the Big Ten truthers are proven right. It may end up the only hope.

I'm really hoping Fox wins the B1G rights. I think this could wind up creating more expansion because of them wanting more games for all of their networks on Saturdays (Fox, FS1, FS2)

 

[noeynox]

If espn is losing subscribers everyone else is as well. Maybe, this gets the over the air networks back in the bidding game going forward, but for the foreseeable future, content rights appear to be locked up. The over the air networks all but conceded bidding for everything outside the super bowl and the world series to espn long ago.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Why do some people view the nACC's GOR as relatively weak, or believe it may have some legal escape routes, some schools could potentially avoid severe penalties, etc.? These scenarios may not be accurate nor do I know the precise sources nor their validity, but somewhere such possibilities have been voiced. Legit perspectives, borderline BS, or absolute rubbish?

 

[billybud]

Why do some people view the nACC's GOR as relatively weak, or believe it may have some legal escape routes, some schools could potentially avoid severe penalties, etc.? These scenarios may not be accurate nor do I know the precise sources nor their validity, but somewhere such possibilities have been voiced. Legit perspectives, borderline BS, or absolute rubbish?

Unsubstantiated...first brought up by the Dude. I don't think there is any "out" do to a lack of a network. If there is, the FSU BOT doesn't know it.

Same kind of gospel being sold as "FSU and Clemson would leave the ACC to join the Big 12". Not happening in the next ten years and probably never...only if the ACC folds.

 

[noeynox]

Why do some people view the nACC's GOR as relatively weak, or believe it may have some legal escape routes, some schools could potentially avoid severe penalties, etc.? These scenarios may not be accurate nor do I know the precise sources nor their validity, but somewhere such possibilities have been voiced. Legit perspectives, borderline BS, or absolute rubbish?

Because it provides hope. Hope for G5 schools looking to get in, hope for some B12 fans that their conference doesn't implode etc.

 

[pj]

Unsubstantiated...first brought up by the Dude. I don't think there is any "out" do to a lack of a network. If there is, the FSU BOT doesn't know it.

Same kind of gospel being sold as "FSU and Clemson would leave the ACC to join the Big 12". Not happening in the next ten years and probably never...only if the ACC folds.

Seems unlikely ... the ACC got more money in exchange for the GoR ... seems unlikely ESPN would let the ACC have its money if the GoR was not real. If the GoR took effect with an ACCN, then ESPN's cash payments would have begun at that time too.

 

[CallMeBruce]

It's still a contract, and contracts can be broken. Most likely, there would be some examination of damages, but unless someone reduced payouts to a league because a team left (and this hasn't happened yet), then those damages are unlikely to be significant.

 

[jostar1]

Why do some people view the nACC's GOR as relatively weak, or believe it may have some legal escape routes, some schools could potentially avoid severe penalties, etc.? These scenarios may not be accurate nor do I know the precise sources nor their validity, but somewhere such possibilities have been voiced. Legit perspectives, borderline BS, or absolute rubbish?

Well, the Dude contends that the ACC schools received no consideration for signing the GOR. Additional money was received when schools were added, but not for signing the GOR. If the consideration was not money, but the establishment of the ACCN, that hasn't happened.

In contrast, the Big12 schools all got additional money for signing the GOR.

Consideration is necessary to make a contract valid. See discussion of Consideration here:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/consideration-every-contract-needs-33361.html

 

[NickyNewark]

Had to be our pal okie lite

No it wasn't but okielite was the ONLY 1 who "liked" the post. I think the commenter was redhawk!?!

 

[pj]

Well, the Dude contends that the ACC schools received no consideration for signing the GOR. Additional money was received when schools were added, but not for signing the GOR. If the consideration was not money, but the establishment of the ACCN, that hasn't happened.

In contrast, the Big12 schools all got additional money for signing the GOR.

Consideration is necessary to make a contract valid. See discussion of Consideration here:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/consideration-every-contract-needs-3t3361.html

Yeah. The Dude expects us to believe that Louisville was worth not only the $17 mn it receives, but an extra $2-3 mn for the other 13 ACC schools, or $45 mn total? If Louisville is so valuable why didn't the B12 add them, or why wouldn't the ACC add more schools?

Billybud's ACC GoR document explicitly states that the GoR was agreed to in exchange for financial considerations from ESPN.

 

[billybud]

And notice in the Whereas's...that the members acknowledge that they receive a benefit in the media agreement for the conference having a GOR.

Edit...already recognized above...as I was typing.

 

[Exit 4]

I have been fairly confident that in the end UConn would end up in the ACC after the Big Ten grabbed a couple of schools from them.

The ESPN cost cutting I think is the worst news we've gotten since Louisville left.

I hope that the Big Ten truthers are proven right. It may end up the only hope.

I agree. Instability/decline in the simple math of cable boxes maybe the worst news since Louisville. It severely hampers all expansion calculus.

But let's remember, in the long run, the B12 is not constructed for success. It needs more states/households. The chaos surrounding the inevitable shake out of the B12 will create new unpredictable opportunities. Short of that, we all have to pray to the alter of Jim Delaney and his better tv mouse trap.

 

[jostar1]

Yes, it looks like the consideration is whatever is in the second amendment to the ESPN contract (either money or the promise of an ACCN).

 

[Husky25]

Well, the Dude contends that the ACC schools received no consideration for signing the GOR. Additional money was received when schools were added, but not for signing the GOR. If the consideration was not money, but the establishment of the ACCN, that hasn't happened.

In contrast, the Big12 schools all got additional money for signing the GOR.

Consideration is necessary to make a contract valid. See discussion of Consideration here:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/consideration-every-contract-needs-33361.html

Consideration does not have to be in the form of hard currency. Just something of legal value to the receiving party. Can't expect The Dude to fully grasp the concept. West Virginia is routinely ranked in the high 40's or worse in education by state.

 

[NickyNewark]

It was okielite. I don't think anyone that has spent 5 minutes on a message board takes thay guy seriously. His comments are not the general consensus of other fanbases.

We need to start winning so the knuckleheads like him will have far less material to work with - and so I can enjoy actually going inside the Rent again.

You sure? I saw the comment on LT's and noticed okie lite was the only one who "liked" it. IH Orange like okie likes downgrading all NE FB but maybe redhawk was the OP of the negative view of UConn with little or no real knowledge outside plains states message board gossip. Those guys have an inflated sense of worth and by looking down on us maybe reinforces their ego's!?! Not all of them but enough to impact perception negatively of the value of our FB and following/potential.

 

[specialisthusky]

You sure?

yea...might want to take another look.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

If espn is losing subscribers everyone else is as well. Maybe, this gets the over the air networks back in the bidding game going forward, but for the foreseeable future, content rights appear to be locked up. The over the air networks all but conceded bidding for everything outside the super bowl and the world series to espn long ago.

ESPN is a commodity service in a competitive market. Markets like that have shrinking revenue and rising costs because the competitors are losing market power and differentiation of their product. I other words, these markets suck.

I think ESPN knows it can not solve its revenue problem with more lumberjack competitions, so what are its choices for content?

More likely, ESPN has realized that with a couple of exceptions, the on air talent is a commodity that doesn't move the needle with viewership and therefore does not need to be paid, hence tossing Olbermann and Simmons overboard.

 

[itgoeslike]

The ACC GOR docs is a good get if it's the real deal. At first glance, it looks like the rights are specifically granted to fulfill the obligations of the ESPN Agreement. Of course, we don't have that agreement (similar to Big 12 GOR). It doesn't appear to grant the conference ownership of the schools rights, only as it relates to the ESPN agreement. This is pretty typical for media agreements. This is conjecture, but it's possible ESPN can waive provisions of its own agreement if a school moves to another ESPN rights-owned conference. This would enable ACC schools to move to the B1G or SEC without suffering any financial repercussions.

 

[itgoeslike]

I am calling BS on this. Are you telling me that the entire Grant of Rights Agreement for the conference was 4 pages long?

Providing it's real, the actual ESPN Agreement is likely much longer. This document could have been to get existing members, new members and accepted members all on the same page at a critical and sensitive time. But, I'm just guessing.

 

[EROCK CONN]

I think ESPN cost cutting will hit the top talent and maybe a little bit of headcount a lot more than it will hit the rights fees. Arguing that rights fees will be reduced across the board solely because of ESPN is kind of like saying share prices will drop just because Fidelity wants them to. There are other buyers in the market besides ESPN, ao ESPN does not get to unilaterally decide what the price is.

Unless there is a backdoor in the GOR, I just don't see how either the Big 12 or ACC lose any teams for the duration of the agreements. A GOR is not something you just buy your way out of, and the case law on the sale of media rights is pretty solid. So unless there is some kind of out that we do not know about like the ACC GOR is invalid if there is no ACC Network, I don't see anyone going anywhere.

I do think this leaves the Big 12 with a mild reason to expand that should be enough to get them to add 2 teams. I am less clear on what would drive the ACC or Big 10 to do anything at this point.

Agreed on rights fees. I think ESPN is cutting overhead strictly due to the increases in rights fees and knows that, in the future, they're going to have to pony up even more for rights fees and are stashing cash to do so.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Providing it's real, the actual ESPN Agreement is likely much longer. This document could have been to get existing members, new members and accepted members all on the same page at a critical and sensitive time. But, I'm just guessing.

I am skeptical that a lawyer or paralegal didn't just draft a fake GOR agreement and post it on a website somewhere. I do not know who the counter-parties for this agreement would be, but I suspect that at least one school has incorporated an athletic department that will own the school's rights fees. There is no reference to Exhibits other than the ESPN agreement, even though Notre Dame would have had to concurrently execute a sale of only its basketball rights. There is also no indemnification clause, or clause specifying the consequences for violation of the agreement.

This is a fake.

 

[noeynox]

ESPN is a commodity service in a competitive market. Markets like that have shrinking revenue and rising costs because the competitors are losing market power and differentiation of their product. I other words, these markets suck.

I think ESPN knows it can not solve its revenue problem with more lumberjack competitions, so what are its choices for content?

More likely, ESPN has realized that with a couple of exceptions, the on air talent is a commodity that doesn't move the needle with viewership and therefore does not need to be paid, hence tossing Olbermann and Simmons overboard.

I agree to an extent, but that is only the beginning. I know two people at work that have totally cut cable and have gone the over the air antenna, android TV, route. I have about 17 months on my contract with directTV before I myself probably go this route. I already have an android TV device and I can assure you if the quality of the streaming on the sports was better, I'd pay the early termination fee to get out of my contract with DTV. There is just no reason to pay for cable any longer. I can watch any show I want on that thing, bar none.

Cable and satellite companies are going to lose subscribers at an alarming rate I believe. Things like sling TV, and comcast's new streaming service reall are too late to the game in my opinion. People I know share passwords on things like netflix, hulu, amazon prime etc, and that is not counting the amount of free stuff on the net through things like Kodi, Navi X, etc.

 

[Husky25]

More likely, ESPN has realized that with a couple of exceptions, the on air talent is a commodity that doesn't move the needle with viewership and therefore does not need to be paid, hence tossing Olbermann and Simmons overboard.

The irony is that as recently as a few years ago, Olbermann and Simmons were that exception.

At the end of the day, Disney will not allow ESPN to be the tail that wags the Mouse. Simmons branched to projects other than what built his audience in the first place, while simultaneously reducing his focus on what his audience wanted. He was on TV, he became EiC of Grantland, EP of 30 for 30, he did his podcasts, and the occasional column. That's great for personal development, but I for one (a former Simmons disciple), pretty much only wanted a couple columns a week to pass the time in "my other office." Then, his focus pretty much devolved to NBA, NBA, and more NBA. Ultimately there are just so many times you can call out your bosses, be critical of media partner executives, alienate your audience and thereby the audience of your employer, while still collecting a $$multimillion annuity.

Olbermann is a nut bar. His aim is to be controversial, but in reality, his act has gotten stale. The remarriage to ESPN was doomed from the start.

 

[itgoeslike]

I am skeptical that a lawyer or paralegal didn't just draft a fake GOR agreement and post it on a website somewhere. I do not know who the counter-parties for this agreement would be, but I suspect that at least one school has incorporated an athletic department that will own the school's rights fees. There is no reference to Exhibits other than the ESPN agreement, even though Notre Dame would have had to concurrently execute a sale of only its basketball rights. There is also no indemnification clause, or clause specifying the consequences for violation of the agreement.

This is a fake.

Anything's possible, especially with the fixation on this specific document. I can't look at it right now, but I think the docs made mention of a joinder agreements and other agreements upon admission, which probably relates to Notre Dame.

 

[CallMeBruce]

The irony is that as recently as a few years ago, Olbermann and Simmons were that exception.

At the end of the day, Disney will not allow ESPN to be the tail that wags the Mouse. Simmons branched to projects other than what built his audience in the first place, while simultaneously reducing his focus on what his audience wanted. He was on TV, he became EiC of Grantland, EP of 30 for 30, he did his podcasts, and the occasional column. That's great for personal development, but I for one (a former Simmons disciple), pretty much only wanted a couple columns a week to pass the time in "my other office." Then, his focus pretty much devolved to NBA, NBA, and more NBA. Ultimately there are just so many times you can call out your bosses, be critical of media partner executives, alienate your audience and thereby the audience of your employer, while still collecting a $$multimillion annuity.

Olbermann is a nut bar. His aim is to be controversial, but in reality, his act has gotten stale. The remarriage to ESPN was doomed from the start.

I found Olbermann absolutely unwatchable, despite generally agreeing with him. He's such a chode these days.