FS1

[IMind]

I caught a good amount of Sunday's coverage. NBCS is doing an incredible job. Their coverage is actually so good I look forward to seeing more. I'm not even really a club soccer fan.

I've never been much of one before this past year, but I'm a convert... and NBC's coverage really is excellent. The difference when I was watching the Capital One Cup match on BEIN or the Champions League on Fox Sports is really noticable. I also get a kick out of the insane tiered levels of European football and tournaments and leagues. I'm pretty much a complete novice to this so it usually takes me 5-10 minutes of watching and Google to figure out what I'm watching.

 

[upstater]

I've never been much of one before this past year, but I'm a convert... and NBC's coverage really is excellent. The difference when I was watching the Capital One Cup match on BEIN or the Champions League on Fox Sports is really noticable. I also get a kick out of the insane tiered levels of European football and tournaments and leagues. I'm pretty much a complete novice to this so it usually takes me 5-10 minutes of watching and Google to figure out what I'm watching.

The difference is that NBC is using closer camera angles and taking you inside the game. Better replays and also highlight shows. It's not a mystery. They are using the NFL's playbook while Fox is stuck with the European way of showing games.

 

[SouthronCross]

How hard is it? FS1 had lower ratings in Week 1 than Speed did.

Yeah, but, the amount of desireable content their target audience wants was sort of low the first week. They still showed a lot of motorsports, which they held over from Speed. Once CFB gets up and running, FS1's numbers will improve. And, the motorsports TV will gradually lessen to the point its not even noticeable.

Its sort of ironic, because when Speed first appeared (as Speedvision), it was really good. They showed all kinds of racing, and, car buff shows. However, once they got possession of some NASCAR broadcast rights, they OD'ed on it. And, a lot of that earlier good content disappeared. As a fan, its really too bad somebody didn't step up to keep Speed on the air.

 

[BoatShow]

Thoroughly enjoying FS1's coverage of KSU-NDSU.

 

[itgoeslike]

I agree that NBC seems to have some momentum on this. Anyone have any numbers?

I actually bet a bunch of EPL games today. Took the big dogs and the 0-0 games killed me.

In addition to FS-1, there are NBCSN numbers towards the end of the article.

http://www.adweek.com/news/television/fox-sports-1-studio-shows-stumble-out-gate-152065

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I have no idea what ESPN's problem is with UConn, but it is obvious there is a very serious problem. UConn has given ESPN $100 million and is one of only a small handful of schools worse off by realignment. ESPN picked the winners and losers, and picked about 110 other schools to be winners in realignment, and UConn, Cincinnati, and USF to be losers. The jury is in, and UConn athletics is a smoking hole in the ground.

I don't understand why whaler, zls and others keep apologizing for ESPN. If your neighbor gets you fired from your job, frames you for a crime, sleeps with your wife, impregnates your daughter, gets your son addicted to gambling, steals your retirement savings, and burns down your house, you would think that eventually you would stop trying to be his friend. Whaler and zls still want to be ESPN's friend.

 

[B1GALUM]

Fox Sports will be 'active participant' in Big Ten rights talks
(http://thegazette.com/2013/09/04/fox-to-make-major-push-for-b1g-rights/)

This is certainly not a surprise but I post it to get an opinion from those of you with knowledge about grant of rights.

If Fox, which also has a partnership with the Big 12 (http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205680799), were to acquire the B1G media rights would this impact in any way the ability of a Big 12 team to move to the B1G?

 

[upstater]

I can't answer your question B1GALUM, but since Fox is a partner with the B1G in BTN, this certainly would create some incestual issues between the two networks. Right now, ESPN pays a lot because it grabs the best games. But with Fox you have some interesting convergences if it owned both properties at the same time.

 

[Waquoit]

you can never go wrong showing the spurs. big following in ct

edit: only sorta kidding, i find a large following round here.

Because I care, it's Spurs. The Spurs are from San Antonio.

 

[ctchamps]

I can't answer your question B1GALUM, but since Fox is a partner with the B1G in BTN, this certainly would create some incestual issues between the two networks. Right now, ESPN pays a lot because it grabs the best games. But with Fox you have some interesting convergences if it owned both properties at the same time.

It certainly would keep ESPN in the dark about what the B!G is doing and could push the ACC into action!

 

[huskypantz]

I'm pretty sure if Fox told the B12 to "bark like a dog", everyone but UT and OU would fall right in line.

 

[whaler11]

I have no idea what ESPN's problem is with UConn, but it is obvious there is a very serious problem. UConn has given ESPN $100 million and is one of only a small handful of schools worse off by realignment. ESPN picked the winners and losers, and picked about 110 other schools to be winners in realignment, and UConn, Cincinnati, and USF to be losers. The jury is in, and UConn athletics is a smoking hole in the ground.

I don't understand why whaler, zls and others keep apologizing for ESPN. If your neighbor gets you fired from your job, frames you for a crime, sleeps with your wife, impregnates your daughter, gets your son addicted to gambling, steals your retirement savings, and burns down your house, you would think that eventually you would stop trying to be his friend. Whaler and zls still want to be ESPN's friend.

Oh good Waylon is in attack mode.

I don't think ESPN has the influence you assume. They didn't pick Pitt, they didn't pick Louisville , they didn't make the Maryland, Rutgers, West Virginia, TCU, Utah or Colorado moves.

So other than that - yeah they pull all the strings.

It was geniuses like you who wanted to turn down 9 figure deals with NBC lurking. NBC ha!

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Oh good Waylon is in attack mode.

I don't think ESPN has the influence you assume. They didn't pick Pitt, they didn't pick Louisville , they didn't make the Maryland, Rutgers, West Virginia, TCU, Utah or Colorado moves.

So other than that - yeah they pull all the strings.

It was geniuses like you who wanted to turn down 9 figure deals with NBC lurking. NBC ha!

What is the scoreboard of schools that came out ahead or behind in conference realignment?

When 14 of the 17 conference schools increased their revenue by>50% by turning the offer down, I think it is safe to say the offer was a lowball.

 

[whaler11]

What is the scoreboard of schools that came out ahead or behind in conference realignment?

When 14 of the 17 conference schools increased their revenue by>50% by turning the offer down, I think it is safe to say the offer was a lowball.

You know that is possibly the most disingenuous statement you've ever made.

Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia and Louisville drew a flush on the river. Syracuse and Pittsburgh aren't worth a damn - only the details of the ACC contract saved them. Pitt was also saved by the grace of Boston College's stupidity. Louisville was dead and buried in the AAC if the Big 10 doesn't make a ridiculous reach for Maryland. West Virginia hit the lottery when the Big 12 found themselves barren.

They rejected the contract because they were clueless enough to think they could do better in the open market. That some of the schools stepped in doesn't make it a good decision.

The AAC and MWC contracts prove it. Unless you'd like to argue that the AAC adding Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and WVU takes their average rake up by 8 figures because that's what you are implying by saying $12 million a year was a lowball offer.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

You know that is possibly the most disingenuous statement you've ever made.

Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia and Louisville drew a flush on the river. Syracuse and Pittsburgh aren't worth a damn - only the details of the ACC contract saved them. Pitt was also saved by the grace of Boston College's stupidity. Louisville was dead and buried in the AAC if the Big 10 doesn't make a ridiculous reach for Maryland. West Virginia hit the lottery when the Big 12 found themselves barren.

They rejected the contract because they were clueless enough to think they could do better in the open market. That some of the schools stepped in doesn't make it a good decision.

The AAC and MWC contracts prove it. Unless you'd like to argue that the AAC adding Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and WVU takes their average rake up by 8 figures because that's what you are implying by saying $12 million a year was a lowball offer.

Pitt, Louisville, Syracuse, Rutgers, TCU, WVU, Marquette, Georgetown, Depaul, St. Johns, Providence, Villanova, Seton Hall, and Notre Dame basketball all got incredibly lucky when they turned down the "fair" ESPN offer and then got 50% to over 100% more in TV revenue within 18 months. It was just luck.

 

[whaler11]

Pitt, Louisville, Syracuse, Rutgers, TCU, WVU, Marquette, Georgetown, Depaul, St. Johns, Providence, Villanova, Seton Hall, and Notre Dame basketball all got incredibly lucky when they turned down the "fair" ESPN offer and then got 50% to over 100% more in TV revenue within 18 months. It was just luck.

I listed the damn schools that got lucky.

You also understand the the value of the Big East as a whole is not the same as the value if individual pieces in individual situations.

Of course admitting what you must understand would force you to admit you are wrong and were wrong. Which is as likely as Paul Pasqualoni learning how to utilize time outs correctly.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

If 82% of the conference ended up with a lot more money, how can you argue the whole was worth so much less than the sum of the parts?

For example, the 7 basketball schools went off together, added 3 schools that were making less than a million a year in their respective leagues, and the new league will be worth double the ESPN offer on a per school basis. Yeah, they really screwed up by turning down the ESPN deal.

 

[whaler11]

If 82% of the conference ended up with a lot more money, how can you argue the whole was worth so much less than the sum of the parts?

For example, the 7 basketball schools went off together, added 3 schools that were making less than a million a year in their respective leagues, and the new league will be worth double the ESPN offer on a per school basis. Yeah, they really screwed up by turning down the ESPN deal.

Waylon. They got more money from leaving. They could have signed the ESPN deal giving themselves a floor of $12 million and still walked away when other conferences came calling.

Signing the contract would not have precluded anyone from getting paid more by the Big 12, Big 10 or ACC.

They cashed lottery tickets. None of them rejected the contract because some other conference was going to pay them. They rejected it for the same stupid reason you supported. They thought as a group they could get more. They were foolish and so are you.

 

[upstater]

Basically, ESPN took money from UConn, USF and Cincy and gave it to the departing BE schools.

They are now paying WV, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers $25 + $80m a year. That's $105m for 5 teams. They initially offered them $60m in the BE. The 7 CUSA teams were all making $1m per year with their contract.

So, offer to the old BE was $12m per team. A total of $96 million for 8 teams.

ESPN is now paying $105m to the departed + an additional $20m to the left behind. Total is $125m. The value of the CUSA teams is questionable since they were only getting $1m before. Let's say their value stayed the same (can't imagine their value increased much by playing Uconn, Cincy and USF). I'd imagine the actual value is closer to $10m for those schools. So let's say ESPN is now shelling out $115m for the old BE.

That's a difference of about $20m, or $2.5m per school.

In that light, ESPN's offer is a little iffy. If ESPN had come in at $14-$15m, you could make a case for the conference staying together. $3m to $5m might not be enough to convince the schools the travel all over and break up the conference.

On the other hand, Rutgers would have left--not sure if that matters a great deal, and Cuse and Pitt would have looked to leave as well.

 

[Husky25]

It wasn't CT, it was national. I don't know much about the EPL but seemed strange to me - at least they got to extra time of the Manchester City game.

I was at Duke for UConn the day of the App St upset. Fairly sure that was BTN when no one saw had it and few witnessed it.

It was on ESPN's Internet site back then...the 2007 version of ESPN3. I remember being at work that Saturday and logging on to watch the last quarter and a half.

 

[Husky25]

I have no idea what ESPN's problem is with UConn, but it is obvious there is a very serious problem. UConn has given ESPN $100 million and is one of only a small handful of schools worse off by realignment. ESPN picked the winners and losers, and picked about 110 other schools to be winners in realignment, and UConn, Cincinnati, and USF to be losers. The jury is in, and UConn athletics is a smoking hole in the ground.

I don't understand why whaler, zls and others keep apologizing for ESPN. If your neighbor gets you fired from your job, frames you for a crime, sleeps with your wife, impregnates your daughter, gets your son addicted to gambling, steals your retirement savings, and burns down your house, you would think that eventually you would stop trying to be his friend. Whaler and zls still want to be ESPN's friend.

Correct me if I'm wrong but The Mouse puts his Mickey on zls's pay check...It's pretty much a career limiting decision to constantly deride your employer. I'm pretty sure they would eventually notice.

 

[zls44]

It was on ESPN's Internet site back then...the 2007 version of ESPN3. I remember being at work that Saturday and logging on to watch the last quarter and a half.

I was at a wedding involving Michigan alums. Boy, was THAT open bar entertaining.

 

[zls44]

I can't answer your question B1GALUM, but since Fox is a partner with the B1G in BTN, this certainly would create some incestual issues between the two networks. Right now, ESPN pays a lot because it grabs the best games. But with Fox you have some interesting convergences if it owned both properties at the same time.

The Big Ten could just try and buy out Fox's share in BTN.

I said "try", mind you.

 

[upstater]

The Big Ten could just try and buy out Fox's share in BTN.

I said "try", mind you.

What do they know about production? They'd probably have to renegotiate all the fees as well. A nightmare. Why didn't ESPN become a partner in BTN? Opportunity missed? Because now ESPN is talking to the ACC. Sounds like ESPN fell asleep.

 

[woomba]

What do they know about production? They'd probably have to renegotiate all the fees as well. A nightmare. Why didn't ESPN become a partner in BTN? Opportunity missed? Because now ESPN is talking to the ACC. Sounds like ESPN fell asleep.

BTN came about because ESPN low-balled the Big Ten media contract and dared them to do better elsewhere. Hard to be JV partners when that's the trigger...

 

[ctchamps]

Basically, ESPN took money from UConn, USF and Cincy and gave it to the departing BE schools.

They are now paying WV, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers $25 + $80m a year. That's $105m for 5 teams. They initially offered them $60m in the BE. The 7 CUSA teams were all making $1m per year with their contract.

So, offer to the old BE was $12m per team. A total of $96 million for 8 teams.

ESPN is now paying $105m to the departed + an additional $20m to the left behind. Total is $125m. The value of the CUSA teams is questionable since they were only getting $1m before. Let's say their value stayed the same (can't imagine their value increased much by playing Uconn, Cincy and USF). I'd imagine the actual value is closer to $10m for those schools. So let's say ESPN is now shelling out $115m for the old BE.

That's a difference of about $20m, or $2.5m per school.

In that light, ESPN's offer is a little iffy. If ESPN had come in at $14-$15m, you could make a case for the conference staying together. $3m to $5m might not be enough to convince the schools the travel all over and break up the conference.

On the other hand, Rutgers would have left--not sure if that matters a great deal, and Cuse and Pitt would have looked to leave as well.

Thanks for posting these numbers. The question is did this favor or hurt ESPN? For $20 million dollars ESPN kept all the content. Of course there was no way of knowing they would keep all the content. If the BE never imploded there could have been a bidding war with other networks and the BE could have received a lot more than 14-15 million dollars from ESPN or some other network.

The destruction of the BE could have been manipulated (never orchestrated of course) to secure content. This is the argument Nelson is making.

On the other hand ESPN may not have been involved with anything. The ACC and schools within the BE took matters into their own hands with things ending up the way they did.

Maybe the ACC was afraid to let things play out. Maybe they felt that had to get the BE schools before the bidding went out because the opportunity might not have been available if the bids exceeded ESPN's by a significant amount.

The problem is everyone was conditioned to football being the driving force for conference media dollars at the time Pitt and Cuse bolted. So why those schools? I realize that tobacco road had pressured the conference for them, but someone had to determine if there was going to be an increased payout for the inclusion of those schools and the only way to determine that was to get ESPN's input. What were the numbers the ACC schools received before the addition of Cuse and Pitt and what were they after Cuse and Pitt announced their defection to the ACC?

 

[woomba]

Basically, ESPN took money from UConn, USF and Cincy and gave it to the departing BE schools.

They are now paying WV, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers $25 + $80m a year. That's $105m for 5 teams. They initially offered them $60m in the BE. The 7 CUSA teams were all making $1m per year with their contract.

So, offer to the old BE was $12m per team. A total of $96 million for 8 teams.

ESPN is now paying $105m to the departed + an additional $20m to the left behind. Total is $125m. The value of the CUSA teams is questionable since they were only getting $1m before. Let's say their value stayed the same (can't imagine their value increased much by playing Uconn, Cincy and USF). I'd imagine the actual value is closer to $10m for those schools. So let's say ESPN is now shelling out $115m for the old BE.

That's a difference of about $20m, or $2.5m per school.

In that light, ESPN's offer is a little iffy. If ESPN had come in at $14-$15m, you could make a case for the conference staying together. $3m to $5m might not be enough to convince the schools the travel all over and break up the conference.

On the other hand, Rutgers would have left--not sure if that matters a great deal, and Cuse and Pitt would have looked to leave as well.

I missed this earlier but how did you get those numbers for the 5 teams that left?

If you're going by per-team average payouts you get the wrong numbers from ESPN's perspective because for WVU (Big 12) and Rutgers (Big Ten) ESPN doesn't own all 3 TV tiers.

ESPN's deals with both Big 12 and Big ten for T1 content was already fixed so they didn't pay any more to add WVU/Rutgers T1 games so the cost to them is $0 in the short term - it'll be hard to gauge how much those losses will cost ESPN when those contracts are up.

I haven't done the math out yet but I'm pretty sure that from ESPN's perspective ended up saving money in the short-medium term for the T1/T2 game inventory that they do control while letting go of some T3 that they probably didn't value that much.

Edit: So doing the math...

Old Big East (Rejected Deal) = $127.4M /year
Old ACC (2010 Deal) = $154.8M /year
Total = $282.2M / year

AAC = $18M /year
New ACC(2012 Deal) = $238.4M /year
ACC - ND Deal (2013) = $21.6M / year (non-FB)
Total = #278.M / year

So from ESPN's perspective they basically traded C7 (they signed with Fox) with the upper half of C-USA while saving about $4M annually. They still have access to Rutgers and &WVU games through their Media deals with Big 12 and Big Ten if they ever want to pull a big game for those teams. Since C7's media deal with Fox is valued at $4.16M annually for 10 teams, you can argue that they gained more inventory without paying any more $$$.

 

[upstater]

I missed this earlier but how did you get those numbers for the 5 teams that left?

If you're going by per-team average payouts you get the wrong numbers from ESPN's perspective because for WVU (Big 12) and Rutgers (Big Ten) ESPN doesn't own all 3 TV tiers.

ESPN's deals with both Big 12 and Big ten for T1 content was already fixed so they didn't pay any more to add WVU/Rutgers T1 games so the cost to them is $0 in the short term - it'll be hard to gauge how much those losses will cost ESPN when those contracts are up.

I haven't done the math out yet but I'm pretty sure that from ESPN's perspective ended up saving money in the short-medium term for the T1/T2 game inventory that they do control while letting go of some T3 that they probably didn't value that much.

Edit: So doing the math...

Old Big East (Rejected Deal) = $127.4M /year
Old ACC (2010 Deal) = $154.8M /year
Total = $282.2M / year

AAC = $18M /year
New ACC(2012 Deal) = $238.4M /year
ACC - ND Deal (2013) = $21.6M / year (non-FB)
Total = #278.M / year

So from ESPN's perspective they basically traded C7 (they signed with Fox) with the upper half of C-USA while saving about $4M annually. They still have access to Rutgers and &WVU games through their Media deals with Big 12 and Big Ten if they ever want to pull a big game for those teams. Since C7's media deal with Fox is valued at $4.16M annually for 10 teams, you can argue that they gained more inventory without paying any more $.

I knew they didn't have the BTN tier 3, and that's why I equated Rutgers with the ACC schools.

Are you sure about ESPN and B12? I'm almost positive they have all tiers. It was part of the final negotiation.

 

[woomba]

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205680799

T1 - ESPN
T2 - ESPN/Fox
T3 - Fox

This setup is why there's some speculate that Fox won't push Big Ten into expanding into Big 12 territory since Fox already has some presence there. Of course, Fox currently doesn't have access to the T1 inventory and it may be cheaper for Fox to pay for the T2/T3 inventory through BTN(which they own 51% of) vs a separate media deal so who knows. I don't think Fox would be all that upset with either direction if expansion happens.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The fox deal with the Big East is worth more than $4MM per school, not $4mm in total. And with Louisville and ND hoops, the ACC is likely over $20MM per school. UNC and FSU didn't stick around to make $5mm year less than they would have got in the Big 12 or Big 10.

ESPN already had any CUSA game they wanted.