FS1

[whaler11]

Pitt, Louisville, Syracuse, Rutgers, TCU, WVU, Marquette, Georgetown, Depaul, St. Johns, Providence, Villanova, Seton Hall, and Notre Dame basketball all got incredibly lucky when they turned down the "fair" ESPN offer and then got 50% to over 100% more in TV revenue within 18 months. It was just luck.

I listed the damn schools that got lucky.

You also understand the the value of the Big East as a whole is not the same as the value if individual pieces in individual situations.

Of course admitting what you must understand would force you to admit you are wrong and were wrong. Which is as likely as Paul Pasqualoni learning how to utilize time outs correctly.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

If 82% of the conference ended up with a lot more money, how can you argue the whole was worth so much less than the sum of the parts?

For example, the 7 basketball schools went off together, added 3 schools that were making less than a million a year in their respective leagues, and the new league will be worth double the ESPN offer on a per school basis. Yeah, they really screwed up by turning down the ESPN deal.

 

[whaler11]

If 82% of the conference ended up with a lot more money, how can you argue the whole was worth so much less than the sum of the parts?

For example, the 7 basketball schools went off together, added 3 schools that were making less than a million a year in their respective leagues, and the new league will be worth double the ESPN offer on a per school basis. Yeah, they really screwed up by turning down the ESPN deal.

Waylon. They got more money from leaving. They could have signed the ESPN deal giving themselves a floor of $12 million and still walked away when other conferences came calling.

Signing the contract would not have precluded anyone from getting paid more by the Big 12, Big 10 or ACC.

They cashed lottery tickets. None of them rejected the contract because some other conference was going to pay them. They rejected it for the same stupid reason you supported. They thought as a group they could get more. They were foolish and so are you.

 

[upstater]

Basically, ESPN took money from UConn, USF and Cincy and gave it to the departing BE schools.

They are now paying WV, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers $25 + $80m a year. That's $105m for 5 teams. They initially offered them $60m in the BE. The 7 CUSA teams were all making $1m per year with their contract.

So, offer to the old BE was $12m per team. A total of $96 million for 8 teams.

ESPN is now paying $105m to the departed + an additional $20m to the left behind. Total is $125m. The value of the CUSA teams is questionable since they were only getting $1m before. Let's say their value stayed the same (can't imagine their value increased much by playing Uconn, Cincy and USF). I'd imagine the actual value is closer to $10m for those schools. So let's say ESPN is now shelling out $115m for the old BE.

That's a difference of about $20m, or $2.5m per school.

In that light, ESPN's offer is a little iffy. If ESPN had come in at $14-$15m, you could make a case for the conference staying together. $3m to $5m might not be enough to convince the schools the travel all over and break up the conference.

On the other hand, Rutgers would have left--not sure if that matters a great deal, and Cuse and Pitt would have looked to leave as well.

 

[Husky25]

It wasn't CT, it was national. I don't know much about the EPL but seemed strange to me - at least they got to extra time of the Manchester City game.

I was at Duke for UConn the day of the App St upset. Fairly sure that was BTN when no one saw had it and few witnessed it.

It was on ESPN's Internet site back then...the 2007 version of ESPN3. I remember being at work that Saturday and logging on to watch the last quarter and a half.

 

[Husky25]

I have no idea what ESPN's problem is with UConn, but it is obvious there is a very serious problem. UConn has given ESPN $100 million and is one of only a small handful of schools worse off by realignment. ESPN picked the winners and losers, and picked about 110 other schools to be winners in realignment, and UConn, Cincinnati, and USF to be losers. The jury is in, and UConn athletics is a smoking hole in the ground.

I don't understand why whaler, zls and others keep apologizing for ESPN. If your neighbor gets you fired from your job, frames you for a crime, sleeps with your wife, impregnates your daughter, gets your son addicted to gambling, steals your retirement savings, and burns down your house, you would think that eventually you would stop trying to be his friend. Whaler and zls still want to be ESPN's friend.

Correct me if I'm wrong but The Mouse puts his Mickey on zls's pay check...It's pretty much a career limiting decision to constantly deride your employer. I'm pretty sure they would eventually notice.

 

[zls44]

It was on ESPN's Internet site back then...the 2007 version of ESPN3. I remember being at work that Saturday and logging on to watch the last quarter and a half.

I was at a wedding involving Michigan alums. Boy, was THAT open bar entertaining.

 

[zls44]

I can't answer your question B1GALUM, but since Fox is a partner with the B1G in BTN, this certainly would create some incestual issues between the two networks. Right now, ESPN pays a lot because it grabs the best games. But with Fox you have some interesting convergences if it owned both properties at the same time.

The Big Ten could just try and buy out Fox's share in BTN.

I said "try", mind you.

 

[upstater]

The Big Ten could just try and buy out Fox's share in BTN.

I said "try", mind you.

What do they know about production? They'd probably have to renegotiate all the fees as well. A nightmare. Why didn't ESPN become a partner in BTN? Opportunity missed? Because now ESPN is talking to the ACC. Sounds like ESPN fell asleep.

 

[woomba]

What do they know about production? They'd probably have to renegotiate all the fees as well. A nightmare. Why didn't ESPN become a partner in BTN? Opportunity missed? Because now ESPN is talking to the ACC. Sounds like ESPN fell asleep.

BTN came about because ESPN low-balled the Big Ten media contract and dared them to do better elsewhere. Hard to be JV partners when that's the trigger...

 

[ctchamps]

Basically, ESPN took money from UConn, USF and Cincy and gave it to the departing BE schools.

They are now paying WV, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers $25 + $80m a year. That's $105m for 5 teams. They initially offered them $60m in the BE. The 7 CUSA teams were all making $1m per year with their contract.

So, offer to the old BE was $12m per team. A total of $96 million for 8 teams.

ESPN is now paying $105m to the departed + an additional $20m to the left behind. Total is $125m. The value of the CUSA teams is questionable since they were only getting $1m before. Let's say their value stayed the same (can't imagine their value increased much by playing Uconn, Cincy and USF). I'd imagine the actual value is closer to $10m for those schools. So let's say ESPN is now shelling out $115m for the old BE.

That's a difference of about $20m, or $2.5m per school.

In that light, ESPN's offer is a little iffy. If ESPN had come in at $14-$15m, you could make a case for the conference staying together. $3m to $5m might not be enough to convince the schools the travel all over and break up the conference.

On the other hand, Rutgers would have left--not sure if that matters a great deal, and Cuse and Pitt would have looked to leave as well.

Thanks for posting these numbers. The question is did this favor or hurt ESPN? For $20 million dollars ESPN kept all the content. Of course there was no way of knowing they would keep all the content. If the BE never imploded there could have been a bidding war with other networks and the BE could have received a lot more than 14-15 million dollars from ESPN or some other network.

The destruction of the BE could have been manipulated (never orchestrated of course) to secure content. This is the argument Nelson is making.

On the other hand ESPN may not have been involved with anything. The ACC and schools within the BE took matters into their own hands with things ending up the way they did.

Maybe the ACC was afraid to let things play out. Maybe they felt that had to get the BE schools before the bidding went out because the opportunity might not have been available if the bids exceeded ESPN's by a significant amount.

The problem is everyone was conditioned to football being the driving force for conference media dollars at the time Pitt and Cuse bolted. So why those schools? I realize that tobacco road had pressured the conference for them, but someone had to determine if there was going to be an increased payout for the inclusion of those schools and the only way to determine that was to get ESPN's input. What were the numbers the ACC schools received before the addition of Cuse and Pitt and what were they after Cuse and Pitt announced their defection to the ACC?

 

[woomba]

Basically, ESPN took money from UConn, USF and Cincy and gave it to the departing BE schools.

They are now paying WV, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers $25 + $80m a year. That's $105m for 5 teams. They initially offered them $60m in the BE. The 7 CUSA teams were all making $1m per year with their contract.

So, offer to the old BE was $12m per team. A total of $96 million for 8 teams.

ESPN is now paying $105m to the departed + an additional $20m to the left behind. Total is $125m. The value of the CUSA teams is questionable since they were only getting $1m before. Let's say their value stayed the same (can't imagine their value increased much by playing Uconn, Cincy and USF). I'd imagine the actual value is closer to $10m for those schools. So let's say ESPN is now shelling out $115m for the old BE.

That's a difference of about $20m, or $2.5m per school.

In that light, ESPN's offer is a little iffy. If ESPN had come in at $14-$15m, you could make a case for the conference staying together. $3m to $5m might not be enough to convince the schools the travel all over and break up the conference.

On the other hand, Rutgers would have left--not sure if that matters a great deal, and Cuse and Pitt would have looked to leave as well.

I missed this earlier but how did you get those numbers for the 5 teams that left?

If you're going by per-team average payouts you get the wrong numbers from ESPN's perspective because for WVU (Big 12) and Rutgers (Big Ten) ESPN doesn't own all 3 TV tiers.

ESPN's deals with both Big 12 and Big ten for T1 content was already fixed so they didn't pay any more to add WVU/Rutgers T1 games so the cost to them is $0 in the short term - it'll be hard to gauge how much those losses will cost ESPN when those contracts are up.

I haven't done the math out yet but I'm pretty sure that from ESPN's perspective ended up saving money in the short-medium term for the T1/T2 game inventory that they do control while letting go of some T3 that they probably didn't value that much.

Edit: So doing the math...

Old Big East (Rejected Deal) = $127.4M /year
Old ACC (2010 Deal) = $154.8M /year
Total = $282.2M / year

AAC = $18M /year
New ACC(2012 Deal) = $238.4M /year
ACC - ND Deal (2013) = $21.6M / year (non-FB)
Total = #278.M / year

So from ESPN's perspective they basically traded C7 (they signed with Fox) with the upper half of C-USA while saving about $4M annually. They still have access to Rutgers and &WVU games through their Media deals with Big 12 and Big Ten if they ever want to pull a big game for those teams. Since C7's media deal with Fox is valued at $4.16M annually for 10 teams, you can argue that they gained more inventory without paying any more $$$.

 

[upstater]

I missed this earlier but how did you get those numbers for the 5 teams that left?

If you're going by per-team average payouts you get the wrong numbers from ESPN's perspective because for WVU (Big 12) and Rutgers (Big Ten) ESPN doesn't own all 3 TV tiers.

ESPN's deals with both Big 12 and Big ten for T1 content was already fixed so they didn't pay any more to add WVU/Rutgers T1 games so the cost to them is $0 in the short term - it'll be hard to gauge how much those losses will cost ESPN when those contracts are up.

I haven't done the math out yet but I'm pretty sure that from ESPN's perspective ended up saving money in the short-medium term for the T1/T2 game inventory that they do control while letting go of some T3 that they probably didn't value that much.

Edit: So doing the math...

Old Big East (Rejected Deal) = $127.4M /year
Old ACC (2010 Deal) = $154.8M /year
Total = $282.2M / year

AAC = $18M /year
New ACC(2012 Deal) = $238.4M /year
ACC - ND Deal (2013) = $21.6M / year (non-FB)
Total = #278.M / year

So from ESPN's perspective they basically traded C7 (they signed with Fox) with the upper half of C-USA while saving about $4M annually. They still have access to Rutgers and &WVU games through their Media deals with Big 12 and Big Ten if they ever want to pull a big game for those teams. Since C7's media deal with Fox is valued at $4.16M annually for 10 teams, you can argue that they gained more inventory without paying any more $.

I knew they didn't have the BTN tier 3, and that's why I equated Rutgers with the ACC schools.

Are you sure about ESPN and B12? I'm almost positive they have all tiers. It was part of the final negotiation.

 

[woomba]

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=205680799

T1 - ESPN
T2 - ESPN/Fox
T3 - Fox

This setup is why there's some speculate that Fox won't push Big Ten into expanding into Big 12 territory since Fox already has some presence there. Of course, Fox currently doesn't have access to the T1 inventory and it may be cheaper for Fox to pay for the T2/T3 inventory through BTN(which they own 51% of) vs a separate media deal so who knows. I don't think Fox would be all that upset with either direction if expansion happens.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The fox deal with the Big East is worth more than $4MM per school, not $4mm in total. And with Louisville and ND hoops, the ACC is likely over $20MM per school. UNC and FSU didn't stick around to make $5mm year less than they would have got in the Big 12 or Big 10.

ESPN already had any CUSA game they wanted.

 

[woomba]

The fox deal with the Big East is worth more than $4MM per school, not $4mm in total. And with Louisville and ND hoops, the ACC is likely over $20MM per school. UNC and FSU didn't stick around to make $5mm year less than they would have got in the Big 12 or Big 10.

ESPN already had any CUSA game they wanted.

Ah - you're right The $4.16M figure is per school. Messed up my columns on the spreadsheet.

Everything else should be correct though - the number with ND's addition was $260M annually, up from $238.4M. People keep talking about the $20M per school number but the signed contract says otherwise - there are certain conditions that will push the value of the ACC deal higher but I believe it's contingent on the ACC Network being launched.

UNC and FSU are being paid less they would be otherwise - they just decided to stick around regardless.

 

[billybud]

Ah - you're right The $4.16M figure is per school. Messed up my columns on the spreadsheet.

Everything else should be correct though - the number with ND's addition was $260M annually, up from $238.4M. People keep talking about the $20M per school number but the signed contract says otherwise - there are certain conditions that will push the value of the ACC deal higher but I believe it's contingent on the ACC Network being launched.

UNC and FSU are being paid less they would be otherwise - they just decided to stick around regardless.

When you get down to it, an extra $4-5 million in TV revenue is fairly meaningless to FSU compared to alumni footprint.

In a near $80 million athletic budget, having an extra $5 million in TV revenue is not any decider. It does not really make up for losses of tradition, chances to host pregame alumni events, to play in front of out of state FSU fans, and collect booster contributions. When folks were talking up FSU and the Big 12, they did not listen to FSU's President who stated that FSU did not have many alumni in Kansas, Iowa, Oklahoma, or west Texas (alumni are in Houston, Dallas and San Antonio). That FSU's out of state alumni were primarily
up the eastern seaboard.

Some folks will crow that FSU will never be able to compete with Florida if they do not join the Big 12, or Ten (pick a conference). If FSU got an additional $25 million per year in TV money to make it $45 million, FSU would still be pulling in tens of millions of dollars less than the Gators.

Florida is an older institution with wealthy contributors (they had a law school and med school when FSU had neither) and FSU has always had access to fewer athletic dollars. That will continue through my lifetime.

 

[upstater]

When you get down to it, an extra $4-5 million in TV revenue is fairly meaningless to FSU compared to alumni footprint.

In a near $80 million athletic budget, having an extra $5 million in TV revenue is not any decider. It does not really make up for losses of tradition, chances to host pregame alumni events, to play in front of out of state FSU fans, and collect booster contributions. When folks were talking up FSU and the Big 12, they did not listen to FSU's President who stated that FSU did not have many alumni in Kansas, Iowa, Oklahoma, or west Texas (alumni are in Houston, Dallas and San Antonio). That FSU's out of state alumni were primarily
up the eastern seaboard.

Some folks will crow that FSU will never be able to compete with Florida if they do not join the Big 12, or Ten (pick a conference). If FSU got an additional $25 million per year in TV money to make it $45 million, FSU would still be pulling in tens of millions of dollars less than the Gators.

Florida is an older institution with wealthy contributors (they had a law school and med school when FSU had neither) and FSU has always had access to fewer athletic dollars. That will continue through my lifetime.

It's kind of a surprise, isn't it, that FSU hasn't broken $80 million? I mean, UConn is at $65 million and it doesn't have a big conference TV contract paying it.

This probably says more about UConn and how it gouges ticket holders than anything else. Maybe UConn could have West Virginia fervor if it charged West Virginia prices.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Ah - you're right The $4.16M figure is per school. Messed up my columns on the spreadsheet.

Everything else should be correct though - the number with ND's addition was $260M annually, up from $238.4M. People keep talking about the $20M per school number but the signed contract says otherwise - there are certain conditions that will push the value of the ACC deal higher but I believe it's contingent on the ACC Network being launched.

UNC and FSU are being paid less they would be otherwise - they just decided to stick around regardless.

The ACC held a gun to their own head and told ESPN to pay up, and ESPN did. The ACC will get paid for the ACC network no matter what form it takes. I don't need to show it in writing, we all know it is going to happen.

ESPN added 3 all sports programs, Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville, and one hoops only program, ND, to the ACC and lost one all sports program, Maryland. Maryland is obviously more valuable than the three teams that were added, otherwise the Big 10 would have added one of those other schools. In return for a net 2.5 schools with lower value per school than the one they lost, ESPN doubled the ACC TV contract. It will be awful hard for the ACC to prove damages in its case against Maryland.

At the same time, ESPN lost most of WVU, TCU and Rutgers, and all of the C7. The part of WVU, TCU and Rutgers they got, a few games a year, will cost them about the same as they would have paid those schools for their entire schedule if they had stayed in the Big East. Don't underestimate the loss of the C7+3. Those are big city programs that draw well and get good ratings in the part of the country where basketball is king. Losing those schools was a HUGE hit to ESPN's winter lineup.

For $175MM a year, ESPN could have signed the Big East to a long term deal and held the league together and gotten all of its TV content. Instead, ESPN declared war, will still end up paying an incremental $200+ million a year to the Big 10, Big 12 and ACC, and lose a ton of content to a direct competitor while destroying the athletic programs at three of the former Big East schools.

ESPN really screwed the pooch here, and unfortunately for us, with all the money that was getting sprayed around, UConn ended up as one of only three schools that was worse off after than before.

 

[woomba]

I don't think it's so clear cut - they may legitimately feel that they have enough NE exposure now that they have they have Syracuse, BC, Pitt, and UConn in their stable. The part that took them by surprise is that ACC took Louisville instead of UConn.

From ESPN's perspective UConn would've been preferable by far since Louisville doubles up on markets they already own and would've improved the BB product in the NE to the point that the loss of the C7 would've been irrelevant.

As for the ACC Network and the extra money related to it - Ill believe it when I see it. The ACC may be pointing a gun to ESPNs head but they know that it's holding blanks. ESPN already owns all of ACC inventory so there's no need to pay them more for it.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

ESPN has already paid up. The ACC had a 12 year contract and they got ESPN to reopen it and double the per team take. The ACC would not have signed the GOR unless the revenue from the ACC Network was in the bag.

ESPN thought they could pluck a few teams into the ACC and get the rest of the Big East to lock into a long term, low ball deal. It didn't quite work out the way ESPN hoped. ESPN lost a ton of content, and will be losing more to Fox over time. ESPN is the SEC, ACC, some Big 12 and Pac 12 games, and the Big 10 for a few more years. They have damaged the AAC so badly that UConn, Cincinnati and the others will be worthless by the time they are needed to fill in for the lost Big 10 and Pac 12 programming.

 

[woomba]

ESPN has already paid up. The ACC had a 12 year contract and they got ESPN to reopen it and double the per team take. The ACC would not have signed the GOR unless the revenue from the ACC Network was in the bag.

ESPN thought they could pluck a few teams into the ACC and get the rest of the Big East to lock into a long term, low ball deal. It didn't quite work out the way ESPN hoped. ESPN lost a ton of content, and will be losing more to Fox over time. ESPN is the SEC, ACC, some Big 12 and Pac 12 games, and the Big 10 for a few more years. They have damaged the AAC so badly that UConn, Cincinnati and the others will be worthless by the time they are needed to fill in for the lost Big 10 and Pac 12 programming.

The renegotiated ACC contract is worth a bit over $17M a year. The only thing ESPN promised was that they will look into the feasibility of the ACC Network.

They will potentially up the annual payment to each member school if they decide that the ACC Network isn't worth the hassle but no one knows the exact numbers - the most common number I've seen thrown around is $1.5M annually per school

 

[billybud]

The renegotiated ACC contract is worth a bit over $17M a year. The only thing ESPN promised was that they will look into the feasibility of the ACC Network.

They will potentially up the annual payment to each member school if they decide that the ACC Network isn't worth the hassle but no one knows the exact numbers - the most common number I've seen thrown around is $1.5M annually per school

I think that the 2013 renegotiation put the ACC payout up to $20 million per...

"Notre Dame signed the agreement, but its football television contract with NBC will remain in place.
As part of the agreement, ESPN has reportedly agreed to bump each team’s annual payout from $17 million to $20 million, as well as extending its contract with the league through 2027."

 

[woomba]

I think that the 2013 renegotiation put the ACC payout up to $20 million per...

"Notre Dame signed the agreement, but its football television contract with NBC will remain in place.
As part of the agreement, ESPN has reportedly agreed to bump each team’s annual payout from $17 million to $20 million, as well as extending its contract with the league through 2027."

I think I figured it out - the source I'm using(http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2013/05/06/Media/ACC-network.aspx), which is post GoR and ND additions, puts the average annual payment at $260M while mentioning that it can go up if certain conditions are met.

Originally I just divided that by 15 to arrive at the ~$17M number...however, that $17M is incorrect because ND has a separate FB contract with NBC so they won't take the full payout. At the same time ND will still take a small cut so it's not correct to divide that $260M by 14 either (which results in $18.5M coincidentally...probably how that $1.5M was derived from).

A reasonable estimate would be ND taking $14M less than a full member, which means that all full ACC members will average a bit over $18M + additional conditions that can push that higher.

Overall point still stands that the FSU and UNC kept money on the table - they just valued the ACC more than trying to pull a few more million by switching conferences.

 

[whaler11]

ESPN only up double digits since FS1 debuted. It's amazing how quickly the EPL chatter died once Gameday started.