Freshman of the Year

[BlueDevils]

Who is MK12?

hahaha. 16k messages on the board, more than 63k reactions. You're a smart one.

 

[BigTenGuy]

It's likely a 2 woman race between Watkins/Hidalgo. Hidalgo has better overall numbers, Watkins has led her team to more team success thus far. Both are incredible and should make one of the AP All America teams. These 2 are putting up a Clark/Bueckers type of battle that we saw in 2020-21. . . .

Been thinking about the Watkins/Hidalgo comparisons to the rookie seasons of Bueckers/Clark. When you look at the rookie stats of Bueckers, Clark, Hidalgo & Watkins, Juju is a distant 4th, and Juju's early conference efficiency numbers (which could certainly change with 12 games left) are simply not very good.

Stats as of a.m. 1/25/24

Win Shares= an advanced stat that approximates the total number of wins a player produces for their team
Per*Minutes = an estimate of the total value created by a player via Player Efficiency Rating

In thinking about AA teams, only 4 freshman have ever made one of the 5-player First-Team AA teams of AP (since 1995) or USBWA (since 1988, though many years USBWA had 10-player teams, with 5-player teams returning in 2018):

AP-Courtney Paris, Maya Moore & Paige Bueckers; and
USBWA-Paige Bueckers & Caitlin Clark.

To date, the Hidalgo comparison to the rookie years of Bueckers/Clark is reasonable, which gives her a legitimate chance to join the select group of first-year 5-player AAs. Watkins does not belong in that group.

 

[JstVisiting]

Been thinking about the Watkins/Hidalgo comparisons to the rookie seasons of Bueckers/Clark. When you look at the rookie stats of Bueckers, Clark, Hidalgo & Watkins, Juju is a distant 4th, and Juju's early conference efficiency numbers (which could certainly change with 12 games left) are simply not very good.

Stats as of a.m. 1/25/24
View attachment 95638
Win Shares= an advanced stat that approximates the total number of wins a player produces for their team
Per*Minutes = an estimate of the total value created by a player via Player Efficiency Rating

In thinking about AA teams, only 4 freshman have ever made one of the 5-player First-Team AA teams of AP (since 1995) or USBWA (since 1988, though many years USBWA had 10-player teams, with 5-player teams returning in 2018):

AP-Courtney Paris, Maya Moore & Paige Bueckers; and
USBWA-Paige Bueckers & Caitlin Clark.

To date, the Hidalgo comparison to the rookie years of Bueckers/Clark is reasonable, which gives her a legitimate chance to join the select group of first-year 5-player AAs. Watkins does not belong in that group.

Where do you find the advanced stats? They are so much easier to find for the men's game

 

[BigTenGuy]

Where do you find the advanced stats? They are so much easier to find for the men's game

herhoopstats.com

 

[Bone Dog]

I think Juju is a major talent who could have had a better portfolio to bring to the awards committees if she had a better coach and team around her.

 

[bballnut90]

Been thinking about the Watkins/Hidalgo comparisons to the rookie seasons of Bueckers/Clark. When you look at the rookie stats of Bueckers, Clark, Hidalgo & Watkins, Juju is a distant 4th, and Juju's early conference efficiency numbers (which could certainly change with 12 games left) are simply not very good.

Stats as of a.m. 1/25/24
View attachment 95638
Win Shares= an advanced stat that approximates the total number of wins a player produces for their team
Per*Minutes = an estimate of the total value created by a player via Player Efficiency Rating

In thinking about AA teams, only 4 freshman have ever made one of the 5-player First-Team AA teams of AP (since 1995) or USBWA (since 1988, though many years USBWA had 10-player teams, with 5-player teams returning in 2018):

AP-Courtney Paris, Maya Moore & Paige Bueckers; and
USBWA-Paige Bueckers & Caitlin Clark.

To date, the Hidalgo comparison to the rookie years of Bueckers/Clark is reasonable, which gives her a legitimate chance to join the select group of first-year 5-player AAs. Watkins does not belong in that group.

I think if USC stays around top 10 she has a very legitimate shot. I don’t think voters will analyze advanced stat metrics as much as they’ll be impressed by 26 points, 7 rebounds and 3.5 assists. A lot will depend on how well she produces in conference play (as you noted).

In regards to AA honors, I wasn’t saying both deserved to be on a top 5 player team, just that they’ll likely make one of the 3 teams (that each has 5 people). Hidalgo I’d put on 1st team, Watkins I’d put on 2nd or 3rd at the moment. All American awards are heavily dependent on team success, so conference play will make or break both IMO.

 

[DefenseBB]

I think Juju is a major talent who could have had a better portfolio to bring to the awards committees if she had a better coach and team around her.

You know what they say about "ifs and buts". Juju chose that team knowing the concerns. Without a doubt, Hildago has had the better year according to any statistical measure. The problem is ND does not have an opportunity for any "marquee" wins except for Sat.

Juju is really good but as noted, Hildago does it on both sides of the ball and her game has been consistent with the start of conference play. Given the limitations of Gottlieb's coaching, Massey has an expected record of 7-6 for USC for the rest of the year to finish at 20-9 while ND is predicted to go 22-7 and may win the ACC.

Honestly, this is a two person race with Hildago having a clear lead over Watkins. These two are way, way ahead of Booker and Williams. Sorry to tell all my fellow BYers that yes, we can love both KK and Ash but their contributions are woefully behind these other Freshman as both KK and Ash have important but lesser roles on the UConn team that seeks title #12. Maybe Williams at LSU is the only other one whose teams aspirations have a similar aspirations of a title and is why her FOY candidacy is also doomed. She has Reese and Morrow as the two lead actors.

 

[Vowelguy]

Lotsa eyes on the UConn game. If Hidalgo puts up big numbers, she wins FOY this weekend.

If not, then the edge probably goes to the player whose team finishes ranked higher.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

No.

Every women’s college basketball player to dunk in a game

Beginning with Georgeann Wells and ending with Francesca Belibi, here is the list of the eight women's college basketball players to dunk in a game.

www.ncaa.com

Does it matter, though? It looks flashy and cool but a 2pt basket is a 2pt basket. It's not like there's any WBB player consistently slamming down an alley-oop like the men.

I don't get the fascination.

I think a player like Griner who can do it casually could be an advantage.

 

[bbsamjj]

You know what they say about "ifs and buts". Juju chose that team knowing the concerns. Without a doubt, Hildago has had the better year according to any statistical measure. The problem is ND does not have an opportunity for any "marquee" wins except for Sat.

Juju is really good but as noted, Hildago does it on both sides of the ball and her game has been consistent with the start of conference play. Given the limitations of Gottlieb's coaching, Massey has an expected record of 7-6 for USC for the rest of the year to finish at 20-9 while ND is predicted to go 22-7 and may win the ACC.

Honestly, this is a two person race with Hildago having a clear lead over Watkins. These two are way, way ahead of Booker and Williams. Sorry to tell all my fellow BYers that yes, we can love both KK and Ash but their contributions are woefully behind these other Freshman as both KK and Ash have important but lesser roles on the UConn team that seeks title #12. Maybe Williams at LSU is the only other one whose teams aspirations have a similar aspirations of a title and is why her FOY candidacy is also doomed. She has Reese and Morrow as the two lead actors.

A few things:

I would argue Hidalgo has several opportunities for a "marquee" win. Yes against UConn, but also against NC State. They also play Louisville twice and Virginia Tech once.

Not sure why you're down on Gottlieb's coaching? She brought Cal to a Final 4 and has fairly quickly brought USC back to prominence, but haven't followed her career closely.

Measuring conference efficiency rate is a bit misleading given JuJu is playing in arguably one of the toughest conferences in recent memory (with 4 teams at one point in the top 10). The Big East Paige's freshman year (and current year) is not at all close to that level. The B10 Clark's freshmen year was pretty good, sending 7 teams to the NCAA tournament; 4 of them (MD, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana) made it at least to the Sweet 16.

Which is all to say, the start of JuJu's Pac12 career has been..tough:

@UCLA (NET 7)
vs Oregon St (NET 22)
vs Oregon (NET 89)
vs UCLA (NET 7)
@ Utah (NET 5)
@ Colorado (NET 17)

Whereas Hidalgo has faced:
@ SYR (NET 47)
@ PITT (NET 179)
vs BC (NET 85)
vs UNC (NET 28)
vs MIA (NET 41)
@UVA (NET 68)
@WF (NET 154)
vs SYR (NET 47)

They are both amazing players, who are obviously on very different teams, in very different conferences. But I think it's pretty unequivocal that JuJu has played a tougher conference schedule; so i'm not surprised her numbers have fallen.

 

[BlueDevils]

I don’t even think she’ll be the best freshman in the game.

*tips hat

 

[JstVisiting]

*tips hat

TBF, I don't think many people outside of South Carolina fans would know or suspect that. I can understand why people think she's mainly just good for a couple of highlight plays right now. She's still only getting about 15 minutes a game, so she doesn't have the numbers to match up with the other elite freshman.

S.C. high school coaching is generally terrible across the board, so she's making great strides just from getting literally any coaching for the first time. Shooting stroke looks solid now, and it was broken the first 8 or 9 games.

 

[BlueDevils]

TBF, I don't think many people outside of South Carolina fans would know or suspect that. I can understand why people think she's mainly just good for a couple of highlight plays right now. She's still only getting about 15 minutes a game, so she doesn't have the numbers to match up with the other elite freshman.

S.C. high school coaching is generally terrible across the board, so she's making great strides just from getting literally any coaching for the first time. Shooting stroke looks solid now, and it was broken the first 8 or 9 games.

I'll add in limited minutes she has had some really timely buckets. May of seen one or two in Cameron

 

[DefenseBB]

A few things:

I would argue Hidalgo has several opportunities for a "marquee" win. Yes against UConn, but also against NC State. They also play Louisville twice and Virginia Tech once.

Not sure why you're down on Gottlieb's coaching? She brought Cal to a Final 4 and has fairly quickly brought USC back to prominence, but haven't followed her career closely.

Measuring conference efficiency rate is a bit misleading given JuJu is playing in arguably one of the toughest conferences in recent memory (with 4 teams at one point in the top 10). The Big East Paige's freshman year (and current year) is not at all close to that level. The B10 Clark's freshmen year was pretty good, sending 7 teams to the NCAA tournament; 4 of them (MD, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana) made it at least to the Sweet 16.

Which is all to say, the start of JuJu's Pac12 career has been..tough:

@UCLA (NET 7)
vs Oregon St (NET 22)
vs Oregon (NET 89)
vs UCLA (NET 7)
@ Utah (NET 5)
@ Colorado (NET 17)

Whereas Hidalgo has faced:
@ SYR (NET 47)
@ PITT (NET 179)
vs BC (NET 85)
vs UNC (NET 28)
vs MIA (NET 41)
@UVA (NET 68)
@WF (NET 154)
vs SYR (NET 47)

They are both amazing players, who are obviously on very different teams, in very different conferences. But I think it's pretty unequivocal that JuJu has played a tougher conference schedule; so i'm not surprised her numbers have fallen.

For the record, I think BOTH Juju and Hannah are great bu if you want to compare, you can't just "cherry pick" the conference schedule, which yes, has favored Juju's harder road thus far.
For you and the group reading this,:
USC is 13-3 and their 16 opponents average NET is 100.93
ND is 14-4 and their 18 opponents average NET is 118.44

So, at this point Juju has played the harder schedule. Juju has a 26.1 Scoring average, 7 rebound per and 3.4 Assists, 2.6 Steals
Hannah has 23.9, 6.4 rebounds, 5.6 Assists, 5.4 Steals (which leads the country (#2 is as 4.31).

Let's call "marquee games" those against Top 15 NET opponents. I chose that number as that group tends to be more stable and usually stays in the top 25 NET grouping.
Juju has faced 5 teams in the top 15, and she has 3 remaining with #3, #10, #15. Juju will not have any "National televised games on this schedule".She will have 8 Marquee games. Juju's average NET for the USC schedule will be 75.75.
Hannah had 1 "marquee game" with SC as the first game of the year. Her "marquee games" are all coming up with #2, #14, #7, #14. Hannah has her game with UConn on Saturday on Fox, she has 3 other games on ESPN and 1 game on ESPN2 scheduled. She will have 5 "marquee games" in total. Her current average NET for the ND schedule will be 89.51.

To me, the stats and the opportunity favor Hannah.

As far as Gottlieb, I have been following women's basketball since 1991, Gottllieb is a great ambassador for the game with hosting symposiums and podcasts while at Cal and is articulate in the media. Her recruiting at Cal was average at best. Yes, in year 2 of assuming the Cal job after Joanne Boyle left for Virginia, Lindsay did reach the final four with a team led by all of Joanne's recruits. Her recruiting failed to get past the 2nd round and she never finished better 7th (year 4 after Boyle's players all left).

Now that she's at USC she has been able to improve her recruiting due to NIL money and has done extremely well with it. But her game schemes and lack of half-time adjustments have been noted for years by those who watch the game. I have seen her coach over 50 games while at Cal and USC and I will stand by my assertion she's a poor x's and o's coach. I would recommend you shore up you admitted lack of seeing her coach, and view a few of her games this year to make a first-hand assessment and of course to watch Juju who is a wonderful player. I just think Hannah is having the better year.

 

[bbsamjj]

For the record, I think BOTH Juju and Hannah are great bu if you want to compare, you can't just "cherry pick" the conference schedule, which yes, has favored Juju's harder road thus far.
For you and the group reading this,:
USC is 13-3 and their 16 opponents average NET is 100.93
ND is 14-4 and their 18 opponents average NET is 118.44

So, at this point Juju has played the harder schedule. Juju has a 26.1 Scoring average, 7 rebound per and 3.4 Assists, 2.6 Steals
Hannah has 23.9, 6.4 rebounds, 5.6 Assists, 5.4 Steals (which leads the country (#2 is as 4.31).

Let's call "marquee games" those against Top 15 NET opponents. I chose that number as that group tends to be more stable and usually stays in the top 25 NET grouping.
Juju has faced 5 teams in the top 15, and she has 3 remaining with #3, #10, #15. Juju will not have any "National televised games on this schedule".She will have 8 Marquee games. Juju's average NET for the USC schedule will be 75.75.
Hannah had 1 "marquee game" with SC as the first game of the year. Her "marquee games" are all coming up with #2, #14, #7, #14. Hannah has her game with UConn on Saturday on Fox, she has 3 other games on ESPN and 1 game on ESPN2 scheduled. She will have 5 "marquee games" in total. Her current average NET for the ND schedule will be 89.51.

To me, the stats and the opportunity favor Hannah.

As far as Gottlieb, I have been following women's basketball since 1991, Gottllieb is a great ambassador for the game with hosting symposiums and podcasts while at Cal and is articulate in the media. Her recruiting at Cal was average at best. Yes, in year 2 of assuming the Cal job after Joanne Boyle left for Virginia, Lindsay did reach the final four with a team led by all of Joanne's recruits. Her recruiting failed to get past the 2nd round and she never finished better 7th (year 4 after Boyle's players all left).

Now that she's at USC she has been able to improve her recruiting due to NIL money and has done extremely well with it. But her game schemes and lack of half-time adjustments have been noted for years by those who watch the game. I have seen her coach over 50 games while at Cal and USC and I will stand by my assertion she's a poor x's and o's coach. I would recommend you shore up you admitted lack of seeing her coach, and view a few of her games this year to make a first-hand assessment and of course to watch Juju who is a wonderful player. I just think Hannah is having the better year.

I didn't cherry pick the conference schedule. I listed the games they had played thus far. As your research confirms, JuJu has played an overall harder schedule thus far, a harder conference schedule, and by end of year will have played the harder overall schedule.

Agree, Hidalgo's toughest games are coming up (minus SC in opening game). The point I was making is both have put up amazing stats, but JuJu has done it against much better competition than Hidalgo thus far.

 

[visitingcock]

Kamilla has not dunked in a game. You are thinking of her 6-3 backup, Ashlyn Watkins, who has officially dunked in two games and had one other that ESPN called a dunk but wasn’t really.

And I have no idea what your post has to do with this thread.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Audi Crooks wants to know if she can get a little bit of love.

 

[Vowelguy]

Hidalgo with 16 first half points, single handedly keeping ND in the game early.
Also 6 ten, 4 assist, 0 to.

Unless she goes 0-30 in the 2nd half, FoY is hers.

 

[Hester42]

Its Hannah's award, as far as I'm concerned its not a discussion.

 

[TN-Gamecock]

Its Hannah's award, as far as I'm concerned its not a discussion.

Without a doubt!!!

 

[bballnut90]

Hidalgo is my pick right now. Lots of season left to play though! Fantastic performance from her tonight. She really outplayed Bueckers which I don’t think many anticipated.

 

[Vowelguy]

Hidalgo is my pick right now. Lots of season left to play though

Nah it’s over.
I don’t think Juju has any national TV games, so little chance for her to make up ground in voters minds.

 

[Hester42]

I love Juju, she is going to be a great in college and the pro level. The difference is just what Hidalgo brings to the game on the defensive end. Its wild the numbers she is producing.

 

[bbsamjj]

Nah it’s over.
I don’t think Juju has any national TV games, so little chance for her to make up ground in voters minds.

No but she does have 2 games left against top 10 opponents (CO and Stanford) that people will definitely be paying attention to, especially if USC is able to win either of them.

Kind of bizarre that ND has won AT Tennesse and UConn, but lost at home to UNC and Syracuse.