Francessa riveting radio; killing Paterno

[Dove]

Kim Jones reported that Sandusky was in the PSU locker room as late as midweek last week! Chatting up players and stuff. She asked players about him and there was a group of players who only knew this past icon as a weird guy who just hangs around the place.

 

[Stinger92860]

The good people who attend Penn State games, buy Nittany Lions merchandise, donate to the university and enjoy championship-quality football on autumn Saturdays are entitled to a proud, successful product. For 46 years under Paterno’s coaching, that’s what they’ve had.

Not true, it was a lie!!! If you take the above approach you must also agree that Penn State stands for at least 13 years of pedophile approval.....In reality that is what they had.

 

[upstater]

For some reason I have this bizzare wish to see upstater totally come clean, throw Paterno completely under the bus. But that isn't fair to him, because I think he's a level-headed guy, and I feel for the PSU fans too. I think I want to see him throw the school under because this whole thing pisses me off so much.

Enough PSU. Enough of their holier-than-thou, "we don't need logos on our jerseys, we don't have NCAA sanctions" bullshit. Nobody on Earth should take any joy from this, but nobody should ever give a Miami fan crap about paying players again. Know what Miami didn't have? An entire coaching staff, police force & school administration covering up for a pederast.

This is as bad as Dave Bliss. Maybe worse. What's the point in ranking?

No more Paterno, no more about his good reputation and graduating kids and no NCAA sanctions and win records. Enough. Complete unmitigated scumbag. He's Dave Bliss to me. The man has no dignity, no ethics and no place amongst even the dirtbags populating college sports today.

Joe Paterno is a bad person, and a worse human being. Period. The sad thing?

That's a higher regard than I hold everyone else involved.

Uh, what do you ant me to say again? Just wondering.

 

[upstater]

Are you saying that was a bad thing? Maybe one of the children or their parents. I suspect that 8 is the tip of the iceberg and I would expect more to come forward. Not all will be valid, but this is going to become a bigger mess than it is now.

No, I didn't say it was a bad thing or a good thing. I said it was odd that it wasn't mentioned. It couldn't have been any of the children or the parents since the poor kid is a total unknown. That's the biggest travesty and problem with the PSU coaches and administrators. They never found out who that kid was. Only Sandusky knows.

 

[upstater]

It's just more old men covering up the crimes of other old men. Legacies intertwined; the simplest explanation is often the right one. When this stuff was shuffled aside they sure as heck didn't have the victims' best interest in mind. It was their own.

This is my conclusion too. And this is why it's shocking. But at the same time, this is old guard thinking through and through, That doesn't excuse it. Hell, Paterno has been a dinosaur for a long time. He should have hung it up with Sandusky. The fact that he hadn't only showed that he was the most powerful man on campus and that he had lost all perspective and sensibility.

 

[upstater]

upstater - your responses seem totally reasonable especially considering the thing hits close to home (Penn St).

One weird element of this which I can sense developing is that because no authority figure was ever held responsible or charged etc.. in all of the catholic church mess, people are justifiably looking to hold someONE responsible this time. I think the chuch incident is more reprehensible as their sole function should be the spirtitual/psychologocial well-being of their followers, but this feels similar. Its part don't make the same mistake in holding people accountable and part someone needs to really really suffer so these truly terrible things stop happening the same enabled way every time.

When you sit back and consider the details of the 2002 incident, the fact that no one knows who that kid was, a Penn Stater can't have any sympathy for the coaches and administrsators.

 

[ctchamps]

For some reason I have this bizzare wish to see upstater totally come clean, throw Paterno completely under the bus. But that isn't fair to him, because I think he's a level-headed guy, and I feel for the PSU fans too. I think I want to see him throw the school under because this whole thing pisses me off so much.

Enough PSU. Enough of their holier-than-thou, "we don't need logos on our jerseys, we don't have NCAA sanctions" bullshit. Nobody on Earth should take any joy from this, but nobody should ever give a Miami fan crap about paying players again. Know what Miami didn't have? An entire coaching staff, police force & school administration covering up for a pederast.

This is as bad as Dave Bliss. Maybe worse. What's the point in ranking?

No more Paterno, no more about his good reputation and graduating kids and no NCAA sanctions and win records. Enough. Complete unmitigated scumbag. He's Dave Bliss to me. The man has no dignity, no ethics and no place amongst even the dirtbags populating college sports today.

Joe Paterno is a bad person, and a worse human being. Period. The sad thing?

That's a higher regard than I hold everyone else involved.

The crimes committed by Sandusky were far more heinous than the crimes that took place at Miami. But I feel both school's presidents knew what was going on and did nothing to stop events. I feel both presidents should be shown the door.

 

[Excalibur]

The good people who attend Penn State games, buy Nittany Lions merchandise, donate to the university and enjoy championship-quality football on autumn Saturdays are entitled to a proud, successful product. For 46 years under Paterno’s coaching, that’s what they’ve had.

No, that's what they thought they had.

 

[zls44]

Uh, what do you ant me to say again? Just wondering.

I want you to admit that PSU has been living a lie. That it isn't any more special than anywhere else (nor is UConn, for that matter). That this isn't a "witch hunt" by a DA from the next county over "out to get" PSU.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I am convinced that the silly dance to the death that Paterno and Bowden were playing from the mid 90's (when it became obvious that the only thing that would prevent one from ending up with the all time wins record was the other) played a role here. If Joe Pa wasn't concerned with being forced out (and nine years ago there was a bit of a movement attempting just this) he likely would have followed through on the result of his passing the information on (which is where the current problem is rooted).

What Sandusky did over the years is beyond criminal and in all candor, anyone who could have done something to stop his actions at any point along the line (and in the process save one or more of his subsequent victims) has to at a minimum personally hold some culpability for not doing what was necessary to stop it. This is a situation where doing the minimum is nowhere near sufficient. Legally it may be satisfactory. Morally is is unacceptable.

 

[upstater]

I want you to admit that PSU has been living a lie. That it isn't any more special than anywhere else (nor is UConn, for that matter). That this isn't a "witch hunt" by a DA from the next county over "out to get" PSU.

You can begin by reading.

 

[traitor71]

The crimes committed by Sandusky were far more heinous than the crimes that took place at Miami. But I feel both school's presidents knew what was going on and did nothing to stop events. I feel both presidents should be shown the door.

Let's be fair here. What we have seen at other places and what have been alleged to have gone on at other places such as Miami or Auburn are not crimes. No one is going to jail over any of that stuff, other than Shapiro of course, but that is for actual crimes related to his ponzi scheme. This situation at Penn State is a crime, a heinous one and really shouldn't even be discussed with NCAA violations in my opinion.

This is just so far beyond any of that, and to even mention it in the same sentence as these other "scandals" is almost a disservice to the victims in my opinion.

 

[Excalibur]

First, I don't know how much protecting the university figured in the 2002 incident. After all, he wasn't a coach then. The news reports that Sandusky was a pedophile caught twice with boys came out three years ago, and there was no national firestorm. That tells me that the brand of PSU and the school was not in danger.

You've mentioned this several times -- that you doubt that protecting the PSU football program or the university figured into the decisions made by PSU staff in 2002. In reality, it was the only plausible motivation, which is what makes it unforgivable. Supporting your assumption by citing the slow media reaction after the fact is a logical fallacy.

 

[upstater]

You've mentioned this several times -- that you doubt that protecting the PSU football program or the university figured into the decisions made by PSU staff in 2002. In reality, it was the only plausible motivation, which is what makes it unforgivable. Supporting your assumption by citing the slow media reaction after the fact is a logical fallacy.

Above I wrote the motivation was Paterno protecting Sandusky by not wanting to know. The 1998 incident was reported, when he was still a coach. Like I said, I've known about this for 3 years after reading news reports, I didn't connect it to PSU. To my mind, it was about Sandusky, and not PSU.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Upstater just curious to know what your connection to PSU is?

 

[Dogdeacon]

You've mentioned this several times -- that you doubt that protecting the PSU football program or the university figured into the decisions made by PSU staff in 2002. In reality, it was the only plausible motivation, which is what makes it unforgivable. Supporting your assumption by citing the slow media reaction after the fact is a logical fallacy.

Isn't a plausible motivation the personal relationship between Paterno and Sandusky? Its conceivable that Sandusky had convinced the old man that he was innocent, maybe partially because its what Paterno wanted to believe of someone that he worked successfully with for so many years. I think anyone would hope not to believe this is true of a friend and/or give a successful co-worker the benefit of the doubt. The only time that breaks down for me is when considering Sandusky's dismissal from the program and my ASSUMPTION that Sandusky's alleged deviant behavior was related to this.

But even if Paterno (on ascending scale of bad) believed in spite of evidence, ignored or protected Sandusky's it remains possible that he simply did this out of personal feelings. If this is the case its certainly arguable that Paterno allowed his professional concerns to prejudice his actions, but its slightly less nefarious versus an outright coverup. After all, if he truly believed Sandusky did these terrible things, was guilty and continued to give the guy access isn't that a far greater risk to both his program, job and legacy?!

Maybe Paterno thought he could get away with sweeping one or two incidents under the rug. But at that point if Paterno's motivation is solely to protect his position and program, wouldn't he tell Sandusky he just got the greatest get out of jail free gift ever, he must leave town, never come to PState again etc etc.. For this reason I think its more grave errors of omission, Paterno fooling himself into thinking its mistakes by an otherwise competent friend/person, thinking stern admonishment will correct the problem and incompetently believing in a friend.

 

[upstater]

Upstater just curious to know what your connection to PSU is?

The fact I have a PSU grad degree is only incidental to my being a PSU fan. I grew up in Connecticut in the 70s and 80s as a UConn basketball fan and PSU football fan. The fact that I'm now a fan of PSu was not greatly impacted by actually living in State College for 3 years. It has more to do with childhood allegiances, same reason I'm a UConn fan though never attended the school.

I went to Boston U. undergrad and did one of my grad degrees at PSU. While at PSU, I taught a required undergrad course each year and had 2 or 3 football players (and other athletes) each semester, so I became more or less familiar with how they operate their academic support for football (since I was filling reports and communicating with the support staff).

That's about it. The only time I can remember NOT watching much PSU football was during my 4 years of undergrad and 3 years at PSU because I was often away playing club sports on Fall weekends. I saw maybe 3 or 4 games during my stay in State College.

 

[upstater]

Isn't a plausible motivation the personal relationship between Paterno and Sandusky? Its conceivable that Sandusky had convinced the old man that he was innocent, maybe partially because its what Paterno wanted to believe of someone that he worked successfully with for so many years. I think anyone would hope not to believe this is true of a friend and/or give a successful co-worker the benefit of the doubt. The only time that breaks down for me is when considering Sandusky's dismissal from the program and my ASSUMPTION that Sandusky's alleged deviant behavior was related to this.

But even if Paterno (on ascending scale of bad) believed in spite of evidence, ignored or protected Sandusky's it remains possible that he simply did this out of personal feelings. If this is the case its certainly arguable that Paterno allowed his professional concerns to prejudice his actions, but its slightly less nefarious versus an outright coverup. After all, if he truly believed Sandusky did these terrible things, was guilty and continued to give the guy access isn't that a far greater risk to both his program, job and legacy?!

Maybe Paterno thought he could get away with sweeping one or two incidents under the rug. But at that point if Paterno's motivation is solely to protect his position and program, wouldn't he tell Sandusky he just got the greatest get out of jail free gift ever, he must leave town, never come to PState again etc etc.. For this reason I think its more grave errors of omission, Paterno fooling himself into thinking its mistakes by an otherwise competent friend/person, thinking stern admonishment will correct the problem and incompetently believing in a friend.

I searched my academic database this morning and saw articles on Sandusky being caught with the 2008 kid at the high school football game. The articles were form 2010. DEADSPIN in fact made a joke out of it in an article referencing Sandusky's book TOUCHED. As recently as April of this year there were articles such as this one:
April 3, 2011 Sunday

High-profile Sandusky case could have positive outcomes, some say

BYLINE: Bill Landauer, York Daily Record, Pa.

 

[ctchamps]

Let's be fair here. What we have seen at other places and what have been alleged to have gone on at other places such as Miami or Auburn are not crimes. No one is going to jail over any of that stuff, other than Shapiro of course, but that is for actual crimes related to his ponzi scheme. This situation at Penn State is a crime, a heinous one and really shouldn't even be discussed with NCAA violations in my opinion.

This is just so far beyond any of that, and to even mention it in the same sentence as these other "scandals" is almost a disservice to the victims in my opinion.

It is apples and oranges when it comes to the severity of the crime. In no way am I comparing the crimes.

It is apples and apples when it comes to the cultural environment surrounding high profile programs and how the universities cover up improprieties to protect their reputations.

I hope this problem, or anything as severe a problem as this, would never occurs at an institution again. Or if something of this nature occurs, there would be no attempt to cover it up. But the track record regarding reputation vs. taking the moral high ground does not look good.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think Paterno's letter of resignation is good. I think his retiring at the end of the season is appropriate. To dismiss him with one month to go would be largely symbolic and ultimately do more harm than good - it'd just be a lot of chaos. For the current team and its players having him continue makes more sense.

In terms of a bowl game down the road I think then its dicey. That's a celebration and reward. Not a thing the current players or team did so they should do what their play on the field merits, but my gut says Paterno shouldn't be a part of that.

Outside of football, the good of him staying on is actually the story will stay more in the news and hopefully that creates dialogue or even investigations that addresses the heart of the problem and helps assemble the facts. Of course if facts get worse in terms of Paterno's involvement my opinion and the entire situation can change.

 

[upstater]

I think Paterno's letter of resignation is good. I think his retiring at the end of the season is appropriate. To dismiss him with one month to go would be largely symbolic and ultimately do more harm than good - it'd just be a lot of chaos. For the current team and its players having him continue makes more sense.

In terms of a bowl game down the road I think then its dicey. That's a celebration and reward. Not a thing the current players or team did so they should do what their play on the field merits, but my gut says Paterno shouldn't be a part of that.

Outside of football, the good of him staying on is actually the story will stay more in the news and hopefully that creates dialogue or even investigations that addresses the heart of the problem and helps assemble the facts. Of course if facts get worse in terms of Paterno's involvement my opinion and the entire situation can change.

Not that this kind of stuff matters in light of what happened, but I can't see anyone other than the current coaches continuing on at PSU on an interim basis. No resident, no AD, a bunch of people who got sold out by people they trusted. There is absolutely no basis for PSU hiring anyone to take this position.