Florida vs Houston NC game thread

[nomar]

People are ignorant of good defense. They were sucked into a rock fight by a team that loves a good rock fight, and won at their game. Florida is not one of the weakest NC teams. They would have smoked our 2014 team. 36.5 KP to 22. Can't wait for the tongue bathing tribals to come at me there. A team looks better or worse relative to the field, and this years field was excellent.

It's not tongue bathing the UConn 2014 team to acknowledge that they picked up their defensive intensity and looked totally different in the postseason. Bazz and Boat were picking guys up 30 feet from the hoop. Opponents couldn't score inside not because of our interior defense because our perimeter defense was so amazing. Daniels remembered he was a 5* recruit at the right time. And Giffey rediscovered his 3-point shot when it mattered. That team was firing on all cylinders. Heck, we shot like 95% from the FT line.

You think that team would have gotten smoked?

 

[RuffRuff]

It's not tongue bathing the UConn 2014 team to acknowledge that they picked up their defense intensity and looked totally different in the postseason. Bazz and Boat were picking guys up 30 feet from the hoop. Opponents couldn't score inside not because of our interior defense because our perimeter defense was so amazing. Daniels remembered he was a 5* recruit at the right time. And Giffey rediscovered his 3-point shot when it mattered. That team was firing on all cylinders. Heck, we shot like 95% from the FT line.

You think that team would have gotten smoked?

I think they would have been heavy underdogs, yes. Anything can happen in a one game format.

Look at the matchups man for man.

 

[Mr. French]

Also @nomar kenpom is supposed to account for competition, etc.

No one considers this team a weak champion by stats and I absolutely disagree if you see them as weak on eye test.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Just my opinion that they're among the weaker champs. I asked you who you thought they were better than. RuffRuff says 2014 UConn.

I think there are two problems with relying on stats. First, it's dependent on the field. Second, a team's season rating doesn't tell the whole story. UConn in March-April 2014 was different from UConn in January 2014. And we know UConn in March-April was totally different from UConn in January 2011. They couldn't win a game, and then they couldn't lose a game.

Isn't that what Florida did? Here's their games from January 7th. They then beat UConn(8), Maryland(4), Texas Tech(3), Auburn(1) and Houston(1). Finished 36-4 playing in a very good conference. They were a late season juggernaut.

 

[jibsey]

Ok, they won it’s over.

 

[Mr. French]

Isn't that what Florida did? Here's their games from January 7th. They then beat UConn(8), Maryland(4), Texas Tech(3), Auburn(1) and Houston(1). Finished 36-4 playing in a very good conference. They were a late season juggernaut.
View attachment 108716

I have no idea how one could have watched this season play out and then conclude they were the weakest team in the last 25 years.

 

[RitzLuce1]

I have no idea how one could have watched this season play out and then conclude they were the weakest team in the last 25 years.

Puzzling but it's probably bitterness because UConn, Texas Tech, and Houston allowed them to steal wins from them at the very end.

 

[RuffRuff]

I have no idea how one could have watched this season play out and then conclude they were the weakest team in the last 25 years.

No where other than the Boneyard would any objective college hoops observer say the Uconn 2014 was better than this UF team. It's only in the BY vacuum (or twitter), that all objectivity is lost.

 

[nomar]

I have no idea how one could have watched this season play out and then conclude they were the weakest team in the last 25 years.

Straw man. Didn’t say it. I said I thought they were one of the least impressive title winners in recent memory. (I also said I picked them to win.)

Asked you to say who they’re better than. You said you had no idea. RuffRuff said 2014 UConn. That’s 1.

 

[Mr. French]

Straw man. Didn’t say it. I said I thought they were one of the least impressive title winners in recent memory. (I also said I picked them to win.)

Asked you to say who they’re better than. You said you had no idea. RuffRuff said 2014 UConn. That’s 1.

You actually said multiple things about them being weak, in your opinion, and then posed this question in direct relation to your opinion on their relative weakness: “but if they're the weakest champion in the last 25 years, that's a weak champion.”

Which conversation am I following that you’re now accusing me of creating a made up argument?

 

[RuffRuff]

Straw man. Didn’t say it. Asked you to say who they’re better than. You haven’t. RuffRuff said 2014 UConn.

This UF team had a KP of 36.46. That is very much on the high side of most of the NC's in last 25 years against a very high KP of top teams, and about equal to our 2024 Uconn team at 36.43. From a KP standpoint, this UF team is probably in the top 2-3 NC winners in that time period. Now KP isn't everything, but it's something. If we look at all the national champions of the last 25 years, champs with low KP's (<25):

2003 Syracuse - 23.28
2011 Uconn - 23.93
2014 Uconn - 22.13

Those teams had magical runs and iconic players, but it doesn't necessarily mean they were relatively great teams against the field of NC winners of last 25 years.

2022 Kansas was 27.49

The NC was an ugly game and they didn't exactly run through the field with any dominance, but this was a very good field. They did beat 3 of the top 9 KP teams on the way to the NC. Let's not discredit the accomplishment, even if it wasn't dominant.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

View attachment 108675

So in a nutshell; the Alligator published the allegations.

 

[Mr. French]

This UF team had a KP of 36.46. That is very much on the high side of most of the NC's in last 25 years against a very high KP of top teams, and about equal to our 2024 Uconn team at 36.43. From a KP standpoint, this UF team is probably in the top 2-3 NC winners in that time period. Now KP isn't everything, but it's something. If we look at all the national champions of the last 25 years, champs with low KP's (<25):

2003 Syracuse - 23.28
2011 Uconn - 23.93
2014 Uconn - 22.13

Those teams had magical runs and iconic players, but it doesn't necessarily mean they were relatively great teams against the field of NC winners of last 25 years.

2022 Kansas was 27.49

The NC was an ugly game and they didn't exactly run through the field with any dominance, but this was a very good field. They did beat 3 of the top 9 KP teams on the way to the NC. Let's not discredit the accomplishment, even if it wasn't dominant.

Yeah I think those 4 are a few off the top of my head - 2010 Duke was very good but maybe not great.

I just think saying who I think would win a head to head game amongst 25 champions is dumb - they’re not a “weak” champion in any sense, which is how this all started.

Doing random exercises about teams beating each other with 20 years between them is fun but doesn’t do much for the “weak” argument. By all accounts this was an excellent team all year and worthy champion.

That’s the only thing I’m debating, personally.

 

[uconnfan68]

No where other than the Boneyard would any objective college hoops observer say the Uconn 2014 was better than this UF team. It's only in the BY vacuum (or twitter), that all objectivity is lost.

They beat better teams than that.

 

[nomar]

You actually said multiple things about them being weak, in your opinion, and then posed this question in direct relation to your opinion on their relative weakness: “but if they're the weakest champion in the last 25 years, that's a weak champion.”

Which conversation am I following that you’re now accusing me of creating a made up argument?

Yes. You misread my comment. I said I thought they were one of the weaker champions in modern history, which is in fact my opinion. You asked how someone could call them "weak". I then raised the possibility that we were having a semantical argument and posited that hypothetically "if" they were the worst champ in the last 25 years, that would make them a weak champion. I thought I was being pretty clear. I know how to make a declarative statement when I want to.

So you're following this conversation, just putting words in my mouth and refusing to answer my question. Which is your right. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition. But I just want the record to be clear.

 

[nomar]

They beat better teams than that.

That Florida team was just as good if not better than this one. They were 36-3, 18-0 in the SEC. And we beat them twice.

I'm not a blue glasses guy. My hot take is that our 2006 team would have gotten beat up by Florida had we gotten past GMU.

 

[nomar]

This UF team had a KP of 36.46. That is very much on the high side of most of the NC's in last 25 years against a very high KP of top teams, and about equal to our 2024 Uconn team at 36.43. From a KP standpoint, this UF team is probably in the top 2-3 NC winners in that time period. Now KP isn't everything, but it's something. If we look at all the national champions of the last 25 years, champs with low KP's (<25):

2003 Syracuse - 23.28
2011 Uconn - 23.93
2014 Uconn - 22.13

Those teams had magical runs and iconic players, but it doesn't necessarily mean they were relatively great teams against the field of NC winners of last 25 years.

2022 Kansas was 27.49

The NC was an ugly game and they didn't exactly run through the field with any dominance, but this was a very good field. They did beat 3 of the top 9 KP teams on the way to the NC. Let's not discredit the accomplishment, even if it wasn't dominant.

I don't have an issue with any of this. Although I think the fact that this UF team had a similar KP rating to UConn's 2024 team underscores the unreliability of that stat. They're not in the same universe, IMO.

I also think if you're ranking teams, you have to look at how they looked in April, not January. The full body of work is important but by that measure the UConn 2023 title team wasn't great. And we know it was.

I do think UConn's 2014 team is one of the "weaker" champs. This is all relative; we're talking about champions. Any time you're doing a ranking you have to put some teams at the bottom, and I don't think that's denigrating them.

 

[Mr. French]

Yes. You misread my comment. I said I thought they were one of the weaker champions in modern history, which is in fact my opinion. You asked how someone could call them "weak". I then raised the possibility that we were having a semantical argument and posited that hypothetically "if" they were the worst champ in the last 25 years, that would make them a weak champion. I thought I was being pretty clear. I know how to make a declarative statement when I want to.

So you're following this conversation, just putting words in my mouth and refusing to answer my question. Which is your right. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition. But I just want the record to be clear.

I didn’t think I put any words in your mouth, it was a fairly natural progression. But I hear ya now. You were posing an opinion, then a hypothetical based on that very opinion.

I gave real reasons why they are not weak. I didn’t have a direct answer to your hypothetical question, but later on I did give 5 teams. I also noted why that was meaningless.

The original point was Florida is a weak champion, I disagreed, you called out my disagreement. I stand by it, but your opinion is…still that they’re a weak champion but you’re upset that I made the logical leaps?

 

[Mr. French]

I don't have an issue with any of this. Although I think the fact that this UF team had a similar KP rating to UConn's 2024 team underscores the unreliability of that stat. They're not in the same universe, IMO.

I also think if you're ranking teams, you have to look at how they looked in April, not January. The full body of work is important but by that measure the UConn 2023 title team wasn't great. And we know it was.

I do think UConn's 2014 team is one of the "weaker" champs. This is all relative; we're talking about champions. Any time you're doing a ranking you have to put some teams at the bottom, and I don't think that's denigrating them.

The last sentence is my point.

I’m with ya on everything except that this Florida team is a “weak champion” but it’s tough to argue who would beat who in hypotheticals.

 

[nomar]

I didn’t think I put any words in your mouth, it was a fairly natural progression. But I hear ya now. You were posing an opinion, then a hypothetical based on that very opinion.

I gave real reasons why they are not weak. I didn’t have a direct answer to your hypothetical question, but later on I did give 5 teams. I also noted why that was meaningless.

The original point was Florida is a weak champion, I disagreed, you called out my disagreement. I stand by it, but your opinion is…still that they’re a weak champion but you’re upset that I made the logical leaps?

Haha, pretty much.

All along, I've thought we were mainly talking past each other.

 

[Inyatkin]

Did our coaches send in that final play to Kelvin Samson? It looked mighty familiar in it's result.

You always bring the goods

 

[RuffRuff]

I don't have an issue with any of this. Although I think the fact that this UF team had a similar KP rating to UConn's 2024 team underscores the unreliability of that stat. They're not in the same universe, IMO.

I also think if you're ranking teams, you have to look at how they looked in April, not January. The full body of work is important but by that measure the UConn 2023 title team wasn't great. And we know it was.

I do think UConn's 2014 team is one of the "weaker" champs. This is all relative; we're talking about champions. Any time you're doing a ranking you have to put some teams at the bottom, and I don't think that's denigrating them.

I do agree with you on this. The 2024 Uconn team was a better team than this UF team. Cling would have neutralized them on the inside, although UF has so many bigs to throw at him there would have been the danger of foul trouble. Steph would have locked up Clayton, so then they'd be forced to beat you with the other two guards. I'm with you that Uconn's KP last year was not indicative of who they were in March, as their two most talented players missed significant time with injuries.

KP isn't an exact science but it's certainly directionally strong. Totally not denigrating 2014, as it's an amazing NC in it's own context, but for the sake of this argument, they would be recognized as bottom of that 25. If you want to argue otherwise, you're homer.

This UF team was very good. They had a legit go to guard, two other very strong/big guards, and another solid one off the bench. Then they had 4 bigs they could throw at you, 1 of which could shoot from the outside. If you look at them from a roster perspective, very balanced, highly versatile and deep. They weren't loaded with star talent as much as a lot of really good talent that offered versatility and depth.

 

[alphasigko]

You always bring the goods

Thank you

 

[3rdbass]

I think they have our 2023 team too low and I’m not a huge fan of this Florida team but they did do great in the SEC.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I think they have our 2023 team too low and I’m not a huge fan of this Florida team but they did do great in the SEC.

Our 2023 squad is too low; Florida is too high and Nova 2018 is too low.

I'd drop Baylor and UVA a couple spots each as well.